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How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

DaveM

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Thank you for taking the time to talk with me. You bring up interesting points of discussion.

Yes there is one mediator, Our Lord Jesus Christ, yet we are the body of Christ. Mary is part of the
Body, the saints are part of the Body, believers are part of the Body. We are all one in Christ Jesus. Do you agree with this?

Being part of the Body, when we pray or ask others to pray, we are praying with Christ and through Christ, not as separate mediators.
Do you understand this or disagree?

Mary is the only one to have Jesus Christ physically growing in her body, flesh of her flesh.
As in Genesis 3:15, God calls Jesus the seed of the woman. God says Satan is the enemy of the woman, not Jesus, but Jesus being the seed of the woman, Satan is naturally His enemy also, but first Satan hates the woman, and he will do anything to crush her, hurt her or eliminate her.
In Revelation 12, we see that Satan tried to drown her after Jesus ascended into heaven
What we have through faith, Mary had and has by sight. She brought forth Jesus into the world from her own flesh, spoke directly with Him and He was subject to her for 30 years, and He also began His ministry at her request. John lept in the womb at the sound of Mary’s voice, it was by and through the power of Jesus, yet scripture tells us it was at the sound of Mary’s voice.

Catholics do not worship Mary as a separate God, we honor her as the promise of God to the world through Adam directly after the fall in Genesis 3:15. We exalt her as the promised enemy of Satan, as anything that would diminish or hide her behind Jesus would be doing Satan’s bidding. We do not say she is above Jesus, rather she is with Jesus. The Hail Mary is taken directly from scripture in Luke chapter 1
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you
Blessed are you amongst women and blessed is the fruit of your womb, Jesus


Even if you don’t agree with what I am saying, does anything that I have said contradict scripture? If you say so,
I use Gods standard and his word, stumbling is sin and being enslaved in sin are 2 different things do you know the difference???
we continue but I would ask you to answer my original question to you ? :)
 
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As to your original question, the Catholic Church defines mortal and venial sin. Venial sin is what we stumble into, yet use the spiritual battle to grow in grace so that we may better avoid stumbling.
Mortal sin is deliberately turning one’s back on God with one’s full knowledge and consent. Willful neglect is considered knowledge and consent. Some of the mortal sins are described in 1 Cor 6, which says those that do them will not possess the kingdom of God. Those that have done them can be washed and receive repentance but those sins must be forsaken and not taught as acceptable behavior
 
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DaveM

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Catholic Church defines mortal and venial sin
the Catholic church does not have authority to define sin, only God and his word has all spiritual authority.

I do thank you for your answer, and can see you are deeply rooted in the Catholic church as I Once was myself.
 
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DaveM

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As to your original question, the Catholic Church defines mortal and venial sin. Venial sin is what we stumble into, yet use the spiritual battle to grow in grace so that we may better avoid stumbling.
Mortal sin is deliberately turning one’s back on God with one’s full knowledge and consent. Willful neglect is considered knowledge and consent. Some of the mortal sins are described in 1 Cor 6, which says those that do them will not possess the kingdom of God. Those that have done them can be washed and receive repentance but those sins must be forsaken and not taught as acceptable behavior
the Catholic church has no authority, Yet one more thing the Catholic church tries to take away from my King my Lord and my savior Jesus. We see Jesus the word of God has all authority, you either believe the word of God or you don't.

Matthew 28:18-- And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

No wear in scripture are you going to find a man made definitions of mortal and venial sin. For instance the Catholic church says lying can be either a mortal or a venial sin, nonsense the Bible says ALL liars will NOT inherit the Kingdom of God

Revelation 21:8 --But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”


Now on to the Catholics praying to Mary, NO THIS IS SO SO WRONG !! again taking away from my King and Lord and savior Jesus. the Bible is clear there is one mediator between man and God and that is Jesus so we know and agree Jesus is the only mediator.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


First off we do not even know if Mary could hear us praying, and according to 1 Timothy 2- 5 we are not to pray to anyone other then GOd through Jesus, so praying to Mary is a direct violation of this according to the word of GOd. And every time I heard the Preist pray to Mary they were always asking her a mediator, they even pray to dead saint for mediation, wrong wrong, and not biblical.

Just read the scripture and let them speak to you my friend, you will see the truth.

Do you love Jesus with all your heart might and soul, do you love Jesus more then your kids more then your wife, is Jesus the head of your family, do you talk to Jesus all day every day, is he in your thoughts all the time, is he truly your king ?? Praise him !!
 
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Kathleen30

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We are many members but one Body, the Body of Christ. The concept does not imply multiple mediators but one. We are all one in the body of Christ Jesus.
The concept that Jesus is the only functioning part of the body would actually destroy the concept of a unified body and turn us into a fractured multi headed mess with all parts contradicting eachother based on personal point of view. That is a concept that Paul vehemently opposed. Is Christ divided? God forbid!
Ephesians 4 explains the concept of the Body, some Apostles, some prophets, some teachers, etc. We do not all have the same gifts and purpose, yet we are to function as one body, that one mediator.
Ephesians 4:17-18 also warns against the individualism that would deny the body. We are not to walk as the gentiles do in the vanity of their minds. We are to walk in humility toward one another, and the Bible tells us to think of all others as better than ourselves, not in an “I don’t need you, only Jesus is my mediator” kind of way
1 Corinthians 12 and Romans 12 further explain the concept of the Body of Christ. We all have different gifts and we all serve eachother. We are not mere individuals claiming Jesus and the Holy Spirit for ourselves only. We humbly submit to one another. We learn from, pray for, heal and encourage one another. We are many members, yet one Body, with one mediator, Jesus Christ.
As far as forgiving sins, you do know that in John 20, Jesus gave that power to His Apostles, right? If He wanted it taught that only He could forgive sins and we should never submit to another man , why would he bestow the power on His Apostles. It is ultimately God alone who forgives sins, but God has ambassadors who are His Apostles.
The Catholic Church perfectly maintains the concept of the Body of Christ. The Pope is the chief Apostle, and apostolic authority is shared in a hierarchy consisting of Cardinals, Arch Bishops and Bishops. The Bishops share their authority with the priests who can also delegate deacons
We also have prophets, doctors of the Church, workers of miracles and teachers who all work together for the perfecting of the saints as exactly described in scripture.
The charge that the Catholic Church is evil because it violates the one mediator clause of scripture is completely false and one would say the idiom “out of left field”. Google who is said to walk the left hand path, and you may identify the deceiving spirit.
Just because we say that we follow Jesus does not mean we cannot be deceived. We avoid deception when we are in humble submission to one another in the one Body of Christ, the Church, which scripture says is the pillar and foundation of truth.


Peace be with you
Broughtwithaprice whilst it is true we are a functioning body of Christ. At the same time the the triune God is seperate. God is seperate from his creation. We are chosen as his own church for his own purpose. At the same the triune God could function perfectly well without us. I’m not sure about the popes. They seem to have a chequered history. I think you even had 3 popes running in around the great schism of which a number came to a bad end along with not mention all the squabbling that took place . As to the individualism of the believer and how God directs their relationships and plan for each individual believer within the confinement of scripture is entirely up to the God and his plan for each and every believer and not so much under the control of any religion in regards to the aspect to the entire submission of our body and soul.
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When thinking upon the subjection you you write upon the religion . I do think upon the communism of old old times. The personal life is over in Russia was the proverbial saying. Their philosophy being that one individual deciding for himself to help himself to a stick to stay warm could lead to a entire city being stripped bare of its wood if all do the same. And so all individual thoughts contrary to party thought must always be in subjection or given over disciplinary action. I not only question your religion in that regard but others also. BroughtwIthaprice I do believe very much in the individualisms . The God did make us much creative
 
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Broughtwithaprice whilst it is true we are a functioning body of Christ. At the same time the the triune God is seperate. God is seperate from his creation. We are chosen as his own church for his own purpose. At the same the triune God could function perfectly well without us. I’m not sure about the popes. They seem to have a chequered history. I think you even had 3 popes running in around the great schism of which a number came to a bad end along with not mention all the squabbling that took place . As to the individualism of the believer and how God directs their relationships and plan for each individual believer within the confinement of scripture is entirely up to the God and his plan for each and every believer and not so much under the control of any religion in regards to the aspect to the entire submission of our body and soul. View attachment 366484 When thinking upon the subjection you you write upon the religion . I do think upon the communism of old old times. The personal life is over in Russia was the proverbial saying. Their philosophy being that one individual deciding for himself to help himself to a stick to stay warm could lead to a entire city being stripped bare of its wood if all do the same. And so all individual thoughts contrary to party thought must always be in subjection or given over disciplinary action. I not only question your religion in that regard but others also. BroughtwIthaprice I do believe very much in the individualisms . The God did make us much creative
I am not really sure that you understand what you are saying. You do know that Christianity calls us to self denial, right? Humility is the greatest virtue and we are to think of all others as better than ourselves?

Communism is evil in that it compels surrender of self to economic gain. There is no difference in the goal of communism and capitalism. A communist is just a capitalist with no cash in his pocket. The goal of communism is forced labor and crushing individuals under the weight of the state

Christianity is surrender of self in voluntary love.
Love is not love unless it is freely given
 
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Jerry N.

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I am not really sure that you understand what you are saying. You do know that Christianity calls us to self denial, right? Humility is the greatest virtue and we are to think of all others as better than ourselves?

Communism is evil in that it compels surrender of self to economic gain. There is no difference in the goal of communism and capitalism. A communist is just a capitalist with no cash in his pocket. The goal of communism is forced labor and crushing individuals under the weight of the state

Christianity is surrender of self in voluntary love.
Love is not love unless it is freely given
Unless you work in some cubical in a bad company, there is nothing to stop you from putting God and family above the company under capitalism. The worse that can happen is losing your job. In communism you can lose your life.
 
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Kathleen30

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I am not really sure that you understand what you are saying. You do know that Christianity calls us to self denial, right? Humility is the greatest virtue and we are to think of all others as better than ourselves?

Communism is evil in that it compels surrender of self to economic gain. There is no difference in the goal of communism and capitalism. A communist is just a capitalist with no cash in his pocket. The goal of communism is forced labor and crushing individuals under the weight of the state

Christianity is surrender of self in voluntary love.
Love is not love unless it is freely given
Yes but Broughtwithaprice the church was one of the very first to practice communism more so in Latin America. Various religious orders of the church took control of many of the native communities. They were given weekly quotas for crop harvests and textile manufacture and in return the more intelligent ones were educated in more complicated work tasks. Yes all were fed had a place to live. But the natives were never paid anything for the bulk of the manufactured goods and harvests that they produced. Most of the profits were profiteered by the religious orders . I grant you most of the natives were well looked after. But how many of us would work 5 days a wk just to be fed. It was blatant communism
IMG_4094.jpeg
As to communism and capitalism being the same. Ultra Capitalism perhaps but certainly not genuine capitalism. In most countries where it was embraced where genuine capitalism was adopted such as in the UK, Germany South Africa, America Canada and Australia. You had what is called generations of the middle class peoples which came into being and the standard of living was improved very much. But yes the question of who brought communism into being is still hotly debated. Was it the ultra capitalists was it the Jews was it it the Catholic Church or was it the workings from within the British empire that brought the atrocities of 19th and 20th century communism into being there be a number of viewpoints on its origins.
IMG_4094.jpeg
As to Christianity being a surrender of self. Yes that be true But the question must be asked to whom ? Yes to whom do we surrender ourselves too? Is it Jesus Christ where we retain our individuality and creativity and uniqueness in his auutt and love . Or is it we give ourselves over completely body and soul to a religious order of which demands complete obedience over our lives . Broughtwithgreatprice I do say that this level of reverence and commitment was solely only ever meant to be given to Jesus Christ and no one else. Besides dying to oneself is a life long journey. But the God does always finish his perfect work . I do say as we look through those time worn pages of scripture . Up on a cross one Friday. It is finished ❤️
 
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Yes but Broughtwithaprice the church was one of the very first to practice communism more so in Latin America. Various religious orders of the church took control of many of the native communities. They were given weekly quotas for crop harvests and textile manufacture and in return the more intelligent ones were educated in more complicated work tasks. Yes all were fed had a place to live. But the natives were never paid anything for the bulk of the manufactured goods and harvests that they produced. Most of the profits were profiteered by the religious orders . I grant you most of the natives were well looked after. But how many of us would work 5 days a wk just to be fed. It was blatant communism View attachment 366522As to communism and capitalism being the same. Ultra Capitalism perhaps but certainly not genuine capitalism. In most countries where it was embraced where genuine capitalism was adopted such as in the UK, Germany South Africa, America Canada and Australia. You had what is called generations of the middle class peoples which came into being and the standard of living was improved very much. But yes the question of who brought communism into being is still hotly debated. Was it the ultra capitalists was it the Jews was it it the Catholic Church or was it the workings from within the British empire that brought the atrocities of 19th and 20th century communism into being there be a number of viewpoints on its origins. View attachment 366524 As to Christianity being a surrender of self. Yes that be true But the question must be asked to whom ? Yes to whom do we surrender ourselves too? Is it Jesus Christ where we retain our individuality and creativity and uniqueness in his auutt and love . Or is it we give ourselves over completely body and soul to a religious order of which demands complete obedience over our lives . Broughtwithgreatprice I do say that this level of reverence and commitment was solely only ever meant to be given to Jesus Christ and no one else. Besides dying to oneself is a life long journey. But the God does always finish his perfect work . I do say as we look through those time worn pages of scripture . Up on a cross one Friday. It is finished ❤️
Is it your contention that Jesus built and is building no visible Church on Earth to whom we owe obedience?
We obey no one here on Earth other than what we perceive Christ’s commands to be?

It seems you would have difficulty in the kingdom of God with that perception.


Yes, I agree that members of the Catholic Church were complicit in bringing communism to Latin America particularly Nicaragua, but those were actions of individuals and Pope John Paul II tried to call them to obedience but they refused
Liberation theology is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. It was started by communist infiltrators within the Church.
Communisms goal is universal atheism, where each is concerned with economic issues only and becomes earth centered instead of aligning our hearts to God
The Cathoic Church is not communist and operates under the principle of subsidiarity, although some have accuse the Church of being communist, she is not.
The hierarchy is in place to assure that the Gospel may continue to be preached and not be subject to the whims of the passions of men that would vote to change it.
God rules a kingdom, not a democracy and certainly not a communist state. We have only to look at the Anglican community and the Methodists to see what democracy does to water down and in cases deny the Gospel. Neither of those assemblies bear any resemblance to their original founding
 
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Unless you work in some cubical in a bad company, there is nothing to stop you from putting God and family above the company under capitalism. The worse that can happen is losing your job. In communism you can lose your life.
True, but be faithful unto death and we will be given a crown of life
 
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Amo2

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You can’t offend me. I accept the offense of the cross. I do not wish to offend you, but I will talk of truth
Ok then. Let's start with the teaching that Peter is the rock.

CHAP. 1 THE ROCK

Matt 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The verses above have been the topic of many a heated debate. The church of Rome contends that the above verses established the apostle Peter as the visible head of Christ's church here on earth. The Popes themselves being one continuous line of Peters successors. The writer contends that the church of Rome has attempted to supplant the church of Christ. This she has done by literalizing the spiritual and eternal truth of the above verses and many others, and applying their literal interpretation toward the establishment of her own power. It is the intention of the writer to examine the above verses, and many others, to reveal the deception practiced by the church of Rome in order to establish herself in a seat of authority, that is, in the very temple of God.

The reader has a decision to make. Was Christ referring to Peter himself when he said, " thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church ", or was he referring to what Peter had just said concerning Christ, " Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God "? Anyone who will study the scriptures, will understand that the church is built upon Christ. Even the church of Rome won't argue that one. The question is, did Christ hand some special power over to Peter above his brethren or not? Is Peter the rock that Christ is referring to, or is the spiritual and eternal truth that Christ is the Son of the living God, the rock that Christ mentions? The following verses pertaining to our Lord as a stone, or rock, may shed some light on the matter.

Ps 118:22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Matt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them,
Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Ps 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Ps 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Ps 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

Ps 28:1 Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock; be not silent to me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit.

Ps 31:1 In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness. 2 Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me. 3 For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.

Ps 42:9 I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?

Ps 62:1 Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation. 2 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.

Ps 62:6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.

Ps 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.

Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isa 32:1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. 2 And a man shall be as an hiding place from the wind, and a covert from the tempest; as rivers of water in a dry place, as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land. 3 And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken.

1 Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


The Lord is referred to as a rock, or stone all through the scriptures. There is no doubt then, that a rock, or stone is a symbol of Christ. This being the case, why would anyone assume that the rock referred to in the scriptures under examination, would be referring to Peter. The Lord Jesus Christ is indeed a rock, and a fortress, unmoving, unchanging, the same yesterday, today, and forever. Our Lord is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. Why would He build His church upon a man who could not possibly be any of these things, in even the most minute sense? Peter himself demonstrated humanities inconsistency and wavering almost immediately after stating the eternal and spiritual truth that Christ was the Son of the living God. When Christ began to explain that he must suffer and die, Peter rebuked him, saying that these things would not happen. Our Lord's response was to tell Satan, ( Peter ) to get behind him.

Matt 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Who knows, but that God in his foreknowledge, had this event recorded immediately following Christ's praise of Peter's acknowledgement of his divinity. If, what Papists claim is true, Peter went from being established by Christ as the visible head of the Lords church on earth, to being called Satan by Christ, in a matter of minutes. He went from speaking that which only the Father could have revealed to him, to speaking that which the father of lies, Satan himself, would purpose. This record, in and of itself, shows the complete fallacy of the Papal assertion of authority based upon these scriptures. This is not to mention the atrocities committed by, and the degradation to which the church of Rome descended, under the leadership of so many Popes.

The scriptures clearly reveal who the rock, or stone is, which the church is built upon.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So it is, that the church of Rome disregards the biblical symbolism of Christ as the rock, in favor of a literal application of the verses under examination. She then uses this literal application as a bases for the establishment of herself as God's one and only true church on earth. In this manner she seats herself in a position of authority, with the Pope at her head. Many of the Jews thought that because they could trace their lineage back to Abraham, they were God's chosen people. Just so the church of Rome thinks that because she claims to be able to trace a lineage of Popes back to the Apostle Peter, she is God's true church on earth. The following words of John the Baptist to some of the Jews, may well be applied to the church of Rome concerning this matter.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

There is much more that has already been said by others, and that could be said regarding this matter. For the purposes of this book however, it is sufficient to point out Rome's rejection of the spiritual application in favor of a literal one toward her own ends. In the following chapters, we will examine more spiritual truths from God's word, that the church of Rome has disregarded, in favor of literal interpretations which establish herself in a position of power. We will also examine some of her teachings, and doctrines that undermine the gospel message, as well as examine some biblical prophecies that meet their fulfillment by her actions and teachings.
 
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Amo2

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Is it your contention that Jesus built and is building no visible Church on Earth to whom we owe obedience?
We obey no one here on Earth other than what we perceive Christ’s commands to be?

It seems you would have difficulty in the kingdom of God with that perception.


Yes, I agree that members of the Catholic Church were complicit in bringing communism to Latin America particularly Nicaragua, but those were actions of individuals and Pope John Paul II tried to call them to obedience but they refused
Liberation theology is not the teaching of the Catholic Church. It was started by communist infiltrators within the Church.
Communisms goal is universal atheism, where each is concerned with economic issues only and becomes earth centered instead of aligning our hearts to God
The Cathoic Church is not communist and operates under the principle of subsidiarity, although some have accuse the Church of being communist, she is not.
The hierarchy is in place to assure that the Gospel may continue to be preached and not be subject to the whims of the passions of men that would vote to change it.
God rules a kingdom, not a democracy and certainly not a communist state. We have only to look at the Anglican community and the Methodists to see what democracy does to water down and in cases deny the Gospel. Neither of those assemblies bear any resemblance to their original founding

The following quotes are from article at the above link. Clink the above link to read the article in its entirety.

The Catholic Case for Communism​


“It is when the Communists are good that they are dangerous.”

That is how Dorothy Day begins an article in America, published just before the launch of the Catholic Worker on May Day in 1933. In contrast to the reactions of many Catholics of the time, Day painted a sympathetic, if critical view of the communists she encountered in Depression-era New York City. Her deep personalism allowed her to see the human stories through the ideological struggle; and yet she concluded that Catholicism and communism were not only incompatible, but mutual threats. A whole Cold War has passed since her reflection, and a few clarifying notes are now worthwhile.

Communists are attracted to communism by their goodness, Day argued, that unerasable quality of the good that can be found within and outside the church alike, woven into our very nature. It might have been an easier thing to say back in 1933, when American communists were well known to the general public for putting their lives on the line to support striking workers, but it was also the kind of thing that could land you in a lot of trouble, not least in the Catholic Church.

By affirming the goodness that drives so many communists then and now, Day aimed to soften the perceptions of Catholics who were more comfortable with villainous caricatures of the communists of their era than with more challenging depictions of them as laborers for peace and economic justice. Most people who join communist parties and movements, Day rightly noted, are motivated not by some deep hatred toward God or frothing anti-theism, but by an aspiration for a world liberated from a political economy that demands vast exploitation of the many for the comfort of a few.

But in her attempt to create sympathy for the people attracted to communism and to overcome a knee-jerk prejudice against them, Day needlessly perpetuated two other prejudices against communism. First, she said that under all the goodness that draws people to communism, the movement is, in the final analysis, a program “with the distinct view of tearing down the church.”

Then, talking about a young communist in her neighborhood who was killed after being struck by a brick thrown by a Trotskyite, she concluded that young people who follow the goodness in their hearts that may lead them to communism are not fully aware of what it is they are participating in—even at the risk of their lives. In other words, we should hate the communism but love the communist.

Though Day’s sympathetic criticism of communism is in many ways commendable, nearly a century of history shows there is much more to the story than these two judgments suggest. Communist political movements the world over have been full of unexpected characters, strange developments and more complicated motivations than a desire to undo the church; and even through the challenges of the 20th century, Catholics and communists have found natural reasons to offer one another a sign of peace.

A Complicated History

Christianity and communism have obviously had a complicated relationship. That adjective “complicated” will surely cause some readers to roll their eyes. Communist states and movements have indeed persecuted religious people at different moments in history. At the same time, Christians have been passionately represented in communist and socialist movements around the world. And these Christians, like their atheist comrades, are communists not because they misunderstand the final goals of communism but because they authentically understand the communist ambition of a classless society.

“From each according to ability, to each according to need,” Marx summarizes in “Critique of the Gotha Program,” a near echo of Luke’s description of the early church in Acts 4:35and 11:29. Perhaps it was Day, not her young communist neighbor, who misunderstood communism.

It is true that Marx, Engels, Lenin and a number of other major communists were committed Enlightenment thinkers, atheists who sometimes assumed religion would fade away in the bright light of scientific reason, and at other times advocated propagandizing against it (though not, as Lenin argued, in a way that would divide the movement against capitalism, the actual opponent). That should not be so scandalous in itself. They are hardly alone as modern atheists, and their atheism is understandable, when Christianity has so often been a force allied to the ruling powers that exploit the poor. Catholics have found plenty of philosophical resources in non-Christian sources in the past; why not moderns?

Despite and beyond theoretical differences, priests like Herbert McCabe, O.P., Ernesto and Fernando Cardenal, S.J., Frei Betto, O.P., Camilo Torres and many other Catholics—members of the clergy, religious and laypeople—have been inspired by communists and in many places contributed to communist and communist-influenced movements as members. Some still do—for example in the Philippines, where the “Christians for National Liberation,” an activist group first organized by nuns, priests and exploited Christians, are politically housed within the National Democratic Front, a coalition of movements that includes a strong communist thread currently fighting the far-right authoritarian leader Rodrigo Duterte.

Closer to home and outside of armed struggles, Christians are also present today in communist movements in the United States and Canada. Whatever hostilities may have existed in the past, some of these movements are quite open to Christian participation now. Many of my friends in the Party for Socialism and Liberation, for example, a Marxist-Leninist party, are churchgoing Christians or folks without a grudge against their Christian upbringing, as are lots of people in the radical wing of the Democratic Socialists of America.

The Communist Party USA has published essays affirming the connections between Christianity and communism and encouraging Marxists not to write off Christians as hopelessly lost to the right (the C.P.U.S.A. paper, People’s World, even reported on Sister Simone Campbell and Network’s Nuns on the Bus campaign to agitate for immigration reform). In Canada, Dave McKee, former leader of the Communist Party of Canada in Ontario, was once an Anglican theology student at a Catholic seminary, radicalized in part by his contact with base communities in Nicaragua. For my part, I have talked more about Karl Rahner, S.J., St. Óscar Romero and liberation theology at May Day celebrations and communist meetings than at my own Catholic parish.

In other words, though some communists would undoubtedly prefer a world without Christianity, communism is not simply a program for destroying the church. Many who committed their very lives to the church felt compelled to work alongside communists as part of their Christian calling. The history of communism, whatever else it might be, will always contain a history of Christianity, and vice versa, whether members of either faction like it or not.

Communism in its socio-political expression has at times caused great human and ecological suffering. Any good communist is quick to admit as much, not least because communism is an unfinished project that depends on the recognition of its real and tragic mistakes.

But communists are not the only ones who have to answer for creating human suffering. Far from being a friendly game of world competition, capitalism, Marx argued, emerged through the privatization of what was once public, like shared land, a process enforced first by physical violence and then continued by law. As time went on, human beings themselves would become the private property of other human beings.

Colonial capitalism, together with the assumptions of white supremacy, ushered in centuries of unbridled terrorism on populations around the world, creating a system in which people could be bought and sold as commodities. Even after the official abolition of slavery in the largest world economies—which required a costly civil war in the United States—the effects of that system live on, and capitalist nations and transnational companies continue to exploit poor and working people at home and abroad. For many people around the globe today, being on the wrong side of capitalism can still mean the difference between life and death.......................
 
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Ok then. Let's start with the teaching that Peter is the rock.

CHAP. 1 THE ROCK

Matt 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The verses above have been the topic of many a heated debate. The church of Rome contends that the above verses established the apostle Peter as the visible head of Christ's church here on earth. The Popes themselves being one continuous line of Peters successors. The writer contends that the church of Rome has attempted to supplant the church of Christ. This she has done by literalizing the spiritual and eternal truth of the above verses and many others, and applying their literal interpretation toward the establishment of her own power. It is the intention of the writer to examine the above verses, and many others, to reveal the deception practiced by the church of Rome in order to establish herself in a seat of authority, that is, in the very temple of God.

The reader has a decision to make. Was Christ referring to Peter himself when he said, " thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church ", or was he referring to what Peter had just said concerning Christ, " Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God "? Anyone who will study the scriptures, will understand that the church is built upon Christ. Even the church of Rome won't argue that one. The question is, did Christ hand some special power over to Peter above his brethren or not? Is Peter the rock that Christ is referring to, or is the spiritual and eternal truth that Christ is the Son of the living God, the rock that Christ mentions? The following verses pertaining to our Lord as a stone, or rock, may shed some light on the matter.

Ps 118:22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

Matt 21:42 Jesus saith unto them,
Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Ps 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Ps 18:31 For who is God save the LORD? or who is a rock save our God?

Ps 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

Ps 28:1 Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock; be not silent to me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit.

Ps 31:1 In thee, O LORD, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness. 2 Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me. 3 For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.

Ps 42:9 I will say unto God my rock, Why hast thou forgotten me? why go I mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?

Ps 62:1 Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation. 2 He only is my rock and my salvation; he is my defence; I shall not be greatly moved.

Ps 62:6 He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved.

Ps 95:1 O come, let us sing unto the LORD: let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation.

Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. 14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isa 32:1 Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment. 2 And a man shall be as an hiding place from the wind, and a covert from the tempest; as rivers of water in a dry place, as the shadow of a great rock in a weary land. 3 And the eyes of them that see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken.

1 Cor 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


The Lord is referred to as a rock, or stone all through the scriptures. There is no doubt then, that a rock, or stone is a symbol of Christ. This being the case, why would anyone assume that the rock referred to in the scriptures under examination, would be referring to Peter. The Lord Jesus Christ is indeed a rock, and a fortress, unmoving, unchanging, the same yesterday, today, and forever. Our Lord is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. Why would He build His church upon a man who could not possibly be any of these things, in even the most minute sense? Peter himself demonstrated humanities inconsistency and wavering almost immediately after stating the eternal and spiritual truth that Christ was the Son of the living God. When Christ began to explain that he must suffer and die, Peter rebuked him, saying that these things would not happen. Our Lord's response was to tell Satan, ( Peter ) to get behind him.

Matt 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Who knows, but that God in his foreknowledge, had this event recorded immediately following Christ's praise of Peter's acknowledgement of his divinity. If, what Papists claim is true, Peter went from being established by Christ as the visible head of the Lords church on earth, to being called Satan by Christ, in a matter of minutes. He went from speaking that which only the Father could have revealed to him, to speaking that which the father of lies, Satan himself, would purpose. This record, in and of itself, shows the complete fallacy of the Papal assertion of authority based upon these scriptures. This is not to mention the atrocities committed by, and the degradation to which the church of Rome descended, under the leadership of so many Popes.

The scriptures clearly reveal who the rock, or stone is, which the church is built upon.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

So it is, that the church of Rome disregards the biblical symbolism of Christ as the rock, in favor of a literal application of the verses under examination. She then uses this literal application as a bases for the establishment of herself as God's one and only true church on earth. In this manner she seats herself in a position of authority, with the Pope at her head. Many of the Jews thought that because they could trace their lineage back to Abraham, they were God's chosen people. Just so the church of Rome thinks that because she claims to be able to trace a lineage of Popes back to the Apostle Peter, she is God's true church on earth. The following words of John the Baptist to some of the Jews, may well be applied to the church of Rome concerning this matter.

Matt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

There is much more that has already been said by others, and that could be said regarding this matter. For the purposes of this book however, it is sufficient to point out Rome's rejection of the spiritual application in favor of a literal one toward her own ends. In the following chapters, we will examine more spiritual truths from God's word, that the church of Rome has disregarded, in favor of literal interpretations which establish herself in a position of power. We will also examine some of her teachings, and doctrines that undermine the gospel message, as well as examine some biblical prophecies that meet their fulfillment by her actions and teachings.

Your reasoning sounds good to you as it is based on scripture, but it is flawed because it ignores other scriptures. Scripture has to be taken as a whole, as we are subject to the word of God, the word of God is not subject to human will.
First, there is no denying that Jesus is the Rock, yet He chose the build His Church on Peter, by His design, not ours.
Christ changed his name from Simon, son of Jonah to Peter, which means rock. Peter lost his authority when he denied Christ. The Apostles did not vote him as chief. His authority was restored by Christ Himself after the resurrection. Peter denied Him three times, so Christ asked him three times, Simon son of Jonah, lovest thou me? The first two He said feed my lambs, when his authority was restored, Our Lord said feed my sheep. Only the shepherd is in charge of the sheep. Peter was the chief shepherd, the vicar of Christ. A Vicar is a representative not Christ Himself, yet he has Christ’s authority until He comes again. Peter was given the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, along with the authority of binding and loosing.
We also see that after the resurrection and before the ascension , Christ gave the authority to forgive and withhold sins to the apostles, when He breathed on them and said receive the Holy Spirit. That authority was then sealed with tongues of fire on Pentecost. The tongues of fire fell on the apostles only, not on all believers that were present, and they spoke in other tounges so that all could understand them, not in gibberish.
Only God has the power to forgive sins, yet He gave it to His apostles to go forth, baptize, preach and teach in His name.
Scripture and history shows this to be true. Scripture says He gave some Apostles, some prophets, some teachers, etc. Not all are apostles, yet we all share in the body of Christ, redeemed by His blood. All parts of the body work together for the building up of the faith
What then of those that deny Apostolic authority? Jesus Himself says a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. He also knows that the human heart is unstable in all its ways, who can know it?
Christs kingdom is headed by apostolic authority and not subject to the whims of men or as scripture says the winds of doctrine. The Holy Spirit is over His Church, keeping it from error, not by the will or consensus of men. We see the testimony of Iraneus in the second century outlining apostolic succession of the first few Pope’s. Iraneus also recorded the demonstration of the Apostolic teaching which is still valid today, and it is a remarkable work showing the correct interpretation of scripture.
We then see Martin Luther deny the protection of the Holy Spirit over His Church and set out to reform it under the interpretation of man. How did that work out? Well it seems we have as many interpretations as there are people, and the denominations are unstable. People change denominations all the time and many have had to water down their message to be “seeker friendly”.
Some refuse to take a stance on moral issues at all and over emphasize outward expressions over the inward change of a new birth. How do we know who is right?
All like sheep have gone astray each sure of his own right. One would seem to think man had been elevated to God knowing good and evil. We should all know that is not right
Scripture says that God wants obedience rather than sacrifice. How can we obey God whom we cannot see, when we deny His Apostles whom we can see? That is the question we all must answer. There is no ignoring it. I can only tell you that when I reached the end of my arguments and my tongue was stopped, I decided to submit myself to the authority of Christ and His apostolic Church, the sin that used to so easily beset me was gone.
Christ had mercy on me during my time of presumption, else I would not be here today. I did learn that there is nothing in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which contradicts or denies scripture. Apostolic authority is real and I can spend my lifetime learning from them, rather than claiming the authority for myself. I deny myself to follow Christ and His Church
 
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The following quotes are from article at the above link. Clink the above link to read the article in its entirety.
Communism is evil and there are tares amongst the wheat. I prefer the Catechism to commentary from those that claim to be Catholic but argue against it.
We can discuss communism and how it relates to the Catholic Church in another thread if you wish
 
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DaveM

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biggest issue for me was going to Priest to ask forgiveness of sin, and never being freed from the enslavement of that sin, only Jesus frees us from the enslavement of sin, only Jesus gives us a new heart, a new spirit, going to priest to confess your sins is 100% worthless, and has no spiritual power at all. Only Jesus can free you from sin, only Jesus grants us eternal life by the father.
 
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biggest issue for me was going to Priest to ask forgiveness of sin, and never being freed from the enslavement of that sin, only Jesus frees us from the enslavement of sin, only Jesus gives us a new heart, a new spirit, going to priest to confess your sins is 100% worthless, and has no spiritual power at all. Only Jesus can free you from sin, only Jesus grants us eternal life by the father.
Dave I would agree very much . There has always been that overreach of whom can forgive sins The God man Jesus or a mere man or a priest . Whilst the apostles had certain powers given from the God. Like excommunication as does the church . That in no way effected a believers salvation. Only that the believer was sometimes taken home as with the case of Ananias & Sapphira lying to the Holy Spirit in Acts 5:1-11, or being handed over to Satan to destroy the body in order to save the soul in 1st Corinthians
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Also we find with Hymenaeus & Alexander in 1st Timothy 1:20 being handed over to Satan that they learn not to blaspheme. But nowhere do we find the apostles have the power to sever a believer from his salvation in the God. That entirely be Gods domain. Nor a priest or anyone else can do on that matter.
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concretecamper

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biggest issue for me was going to Priest to ask forgiveness of sin
Your objection is with Jesus. He gave men the authority to forgive sons.
and never being freed from the enslavement of that sin
So you blame someone else for your own weakness.
only Jesus frees us from the enslavement of sin, only Jesus gives us a new heart
No one would argue with that. But it doesn't address the fact Jesus gave men the authority to forgive sins
going to priest to confess your sins is 100% worthless
Wow, what Jesus said is worthless.
 
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biggest issue for me was going to Priest to ask forgiveness of sin, and never being freed from the enslavement of that sin, only Jesus frees us from the enslavement of sin, only Jesus gives us a new heart, a new spirit, going to priest to confess your sins is 100% worthless, and has no spiritual power at all. Only Jesus can free you from sin, only Jesus grants us eternal life

You need to review scripture, specifically the Gospel of John chapter 20

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.



The Catholic Church agrees that only Jesus has the power to forgive sins as He is God and only God can forgive sins.
Jesus gave His authority to forgive sins to His apostles when He breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Ghost.

An apostle is one who is sent. The apostles were ones sent directly by Jesus, and He gave them His authority. He also gave Peter the keys of the kingdom of heaven.
The apostles are not Jesus but they are His authentic representatives. They have authenticity because they did not claim authority for themselves, but received it from Jesus.


Jesus also explains the concept of valid authority in John 5 when even He says that He cannot testify of Himself


31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 33 You sent to John, and he gave testimony to the truth. 34 But I receive not testimony from man: but I say these things, that you may be saved. 35 He was a burning and a shining light: and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light.

36 But I have a greater testimony than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to perfect; the works themselves, which I do, give testimony of me, that the Father hath sent me. 37 And the Father himself who hath sent me, hath given testimony of me: neither have you heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. 38 And you have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him you believe not.



Apostles are those that have been sent. They do not speak of themselves, but have received their authority from another. We call this apostolic succession. The Pope, Cardinals, Bishops and priests all have that authority given to the apostles by Christ Himself.

The priest does not have the power in himself to forgive sins. He can only forgive sins as a representative of Christ. Faith and obedience of the penitent are necessary for the sacrament to be valid. If the priest had the power in himself, he could go around and just forgive everyone, but he does not have that power.
What he does have is the authority to act in place of Jesus, when a penitent comes before him in obedience to Christ. We say the priest acts in personae Christi, as the person of Christ
Only those that have received apostolic authority by the laying on of hands have that authority
The scriptures are clear. Jesus sent the apostles with His full authority to forgive sins. Not everyone is an apostle, as scripture says he gave some apostles, some prophets, some teachers….etc
It is a great privilege to go before a priest as if you were kneeling before Jesus Himself, and it is also a great privilege to eat the same bread of life that Jesus fed the apostles at the Last Supper.

The scriptures speak of all these things which we have done for almost 2000 years. The grace of God is extended to the whole world, and is there for the asking

If you say you love Jesus and I am not one to doubt you, just look at the scriptures. Where are they contradicted ?
 
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DaveM

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You need to review scripture, specifically the Gospel of John chapter 20

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.

I can forgive anyone for sin, but what good is it if he is still enslaved to the sin !! you must be born again to enter into the kingdom, do you understand what being born again is??

all you Catholics who confess your sins to a Priest,,, who has been freed from the sin and born again?? we must repent, big difference between confession and repentance
 
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