Trump threatens to cut Calif.’s federal funds if trans athletes ‘illegally’ compete in women’s events

[rjs330]

I don't think any of them think very much about it. They're just going to the bathroom.

Irrelevant. Most do. Most people, particularly women dont want men in their spaces. Its their morality. And force it upon them is immoral.

I still see nothing to do with morality, just customary behavior.

You would be incorrect. It is most definitely a morality issue.

 

[BCP1928]

Irrelevant. Most do. Most people, particularly women dont want men in their spaces.

Most people? How do you know that?

Its their morality. And force it upon them is immoral.

To force it on them is perhaps immoral, but according to you it is even immoral if they don't mind, as in my examples.

You would be incorrect. It is most definitely a morality issue.

You keep saying that, but don't back it up with specifics, not even scripture.

 

[ralliann]

Most people? How do you know that?

To force it on them is perhaps immoral, but according to you it is even immoral if they don't mind, as in my examples.

Then ask before use. Nobody has the right to force anyone.

 

[BCP1928]

Then ask before use. Nobody has the right to force anyone.

Apparently they haven't even the right to volunteer. I gave two actual examples of this supposed immorality and asked for an explanation of why they are immoral. So far, no answer. Since this is largely a Christian issue I would expect at least scripture quotes on a matter of morality, but you've got nothing. The assertion has been made that the presence of a biological male (trans or not) in a public toilet designated for female use is in itself immoral, whether forced or not, even in places where it is not illegal. What is your answer?

 

[ralliann]

Apparently they haven't even the right to volunteer.

Who has no right to volunteer? Nobody has a right to volunteer on behalf of anyone else. Therefore everyone else needs to be asked, and not forced.

I gave two actual examples of this supposed immorality and asked for an explanation of why they are immoral.

It is private. That is why facilities which have sex neutral restrooms have locks in the door.

So far, no answer. Since this is largely a Christian issue I would expect at least scripture quotes on a matter of morality, but you've got nothing.

It is not just a Christian issue. It is a safety issue therefore a moral issue. Just plain common sense.

The assertion has been made that the presence of a biological male (trans or not) in a public toilet designated for female use is in itself immoral, whether forced or not, even in places where it is not illegal. What is your answer?

My answer is: A young girl using the restroom, or even an adult woman, should not have to worry about a man being in a womans private space. Christian or not, it is not safe. I would only consent if a bathroom attendant were used.

 

[rjs330]

Most people? How do you know that?

Surveys show at least 50% of Americans do while only around 20% think people should be able to use whatever they want.

Those that think they should double those that think they should be allowed to use whatever they want.

To force it on them is perhaps immoral, but according to you it is even immoral if they don't mind, as in my examples.

I didn't say that. To force people who dont want to is immoral. Which is FAR more than those that feel otherwise.

And we are NOT talking about gender neutral bathrooms which are single occupancy bathrooms. We are talking about the majority of bathrooms that are not like that.

You keep saying that, but don't back it up with specifics, not even scripture.

I just did and you admitted it. You said to force it on them is immoral. Allowing me to use women's rooms is immoral because it forces women who dont want it to have to do it anyway. Scripture does not address the specifics of every single moral issue someone could face. It would have to be at least 30 volumes worth to do that. So if you are looking for a Bible verse rhat says, "Thus saith the Lord, men shall not use women's bathrooms" then you will be disappointed.

 

[BCP1928]

Who has no right to volunteer? Nobody has a right to volunteer on behalf of anyone else. Therefore everyone else needs to be asked, and not forced.

It is private. That is why facilities which have sex neutral restrooms have locks in the door.

Exactly, they have stalls for use when privacy is wanted.

It is not just a Christian issue. It is a safety issue therefore a moral issue. Just plain common sense.

My answer is: A young girl using the restroom, or even an adult woman, should not have to worry about a man being in a womans private space. Christian or not, it is not safe. I would only consent if a bathroom attendant were used.

OK, maybe we are getting closer to it. I agree that people should be protected as much as possible from the illegal behavior of others. But what you are painting here is the belief that women are at such great risk from sexual assault by a man at any time when they are in public, that they need a safe place to retire to. It might be interesting to know what percentage of sexual assaults by men take place in women's bathrooms and whether there is a differential effect in those places with bathroom laws.

 

[BCP1928]

Surveys show at least 50% of Americans do while only around 20% think people should be able to use whatever they want.

Those that think they should double those that think they should be allowed to use whatever they want.

I didn't say that. To force people who dont want to is immoral. Which is FAR more than those that feel otherwise.

And we are NOT talking about gender neutral bathrooms which are single occupancy bathrooms. We are talking about the majority of bathrooms that are not like that.

I just did and you admitted it. You said to force it on them is immoral. Allowing me to use women's rooms is immoral because it forces women who dont want it to have to do it anyway. Scripture does not address the specifics of every single moral issue someone could face. It would have to be at least 30 volumes worth to do that. So if you are looking for a Bible verse rhat says, "Thus saith the Lord, men shall not use women's bathrooms" then you will be disappointed.

No, I'm talking about a general principle, Yes, I know it makes some women uncomfortable and we shouldn't burden them with it. But try this, as one of our other posters have suggested: Suppose there was a unisex toilet with stalls, but there was also an attendant on duty, capable of keeping order or summoning the police if necessary. What would be the moral position there?

 

[JSRG]

I think the quote feature misfired here, those comments are not mine.

-- A2SG, but I'll gladly reply when you find what I actually did say...

You're right; I was replying to and quoting a post by @NxNW but somehow it got attributed to you in the quote. I am not sure how that happened. The best guess I have is that I was going to reply to something you wrote, then added in the reply to NxNW, then ended up deleting the quote from you, but didn't delete it properly and somehow NxNW's words got put into it? Not sure if that is the case, that's just my best guess.

Oh well, NxNW caught it and replied to my post anyway.

 

[JSRG]

But how does the government enforce something that's not the law?

By putting it into a law (or, if not formally putting it into law, putting it into some kind of policy).

 

[NxNW]

By putting it into a law (or, if not formally putting it into law, putting it into some kind of policy).

Well, at least we all agree the government has no business trying to enforce this without a law on the books.

 

[BCP1928]

Well, at least we all agree the government has no business trying to enforce this without a law on the books.

Many states have such "bathroom" laws already. The trouble is, that Trump can't be sure that all the states will pass one, so he has to act by executive order and save the nation himself.

 

[NxNW]

Many states have such "bathroom" laws already. The trouble is, that Trump can't be sure that all the states will pass one, so he has to act by executive order and save the nation himself.

And yet a few years ago, he was telling a trans customer to use whichever bathroom was comfortable. So he's not only inconsistent, but at least he opposes states' rights!

 

[Bradskii]

My answer is: A young girl using the restroom, or even an adult woman, should not have to worry about a man being in a womans private space.

So there's a group of women enjoying a night out. All dressed up and looking great. They've had a few drinks. As have most of the men there who are eyeing the group and thinking of opening lines and egging each other on to make an approach.

You're worried about safety. So if one of the women wants to use the toilet, then I presume you'd advise her against going into the men's. A good looking girl, a lot of alcohol, lots of testosterone...she has to use the women's restroom, right? There has to be a rule, right? Only biological men in the men's restroom, right? But one of that group is trans.

How do you enforce that rule?

 

[Hentenza]

And now we are around the circle again. What rights? There is no expectation of privacy in public accomodations.

Actually there is. As a man I have the expectation of privacy while using a public bathroom. If the stall does not have a door am not doing #2 in front of a crowd.

 

[ralliann]

Exactly, they have stalls for use when privacy is wanted.

Exactly what? Stalls are not secure. Locks are placed on sex neutral bathrooms, to secure privacy.

OK, maybe we are getting closer to it. I agree that people should be protected as much as possible from the illegal behavior of others. But what you are painting here is the belief that women are at such great risk from sexual assault by a man at any time when they are in public, that they need a safe place to retire to. It might be interesting to know what percentage of sexual assaults by men take place in women's bathrooms and whether there is a differential effect in those places with bathroom laws.

It is not up to you. It is up to each individual. Bathroom stalls provide neither enough privacy from a man, nor security. If men want to use a woman's restroom, an attendant needs to be available.

 

[rjs330]

No, I'm talking about a general principle, Yes, I know it makes some women uncomfortable and we shouldn't burden them with it. But try this, as one of our other posters have suggested: Suppose there was a unisex toilet with stalls, but there was also an attendant on duty, capable of keeping order or summoning the police if necessary. What would be the moral position there?

Suppose a man walks in and assaults the female attendant? Or in your scenario are all female attendants 5th degree black belts? Are we putting these blackbelts in every woman's bathroom?

Your scenario doesn't change the morality of women being forced to allow men into their private spaces. You adjust trying to cover that up with what ifs. Trying to find a way to put lipstick on a pig. How about we just admit its immoral to force that upon women and stop trying to find a way to force it on them with special what ifs.

 

[BCP1928]

Exactly what? Stalls are not secure. Locks are placed on sex neutral bathrooms, to secure privacy.


It is not up to you. It is up to each individual. Bathroom stalls provide neither enough privacy from a man, nor security. If men want to use a woman's restroom, an attendant needs to be available.

Thinking of public toilets in Europe--which generally have attendants, I assumed a proper stall with partitions and a door which go clear to the floor, and a secure latch on the inside.

 

[RileyG]

No, I'm talking about a general principle, Yes, I know it makes some women uncomfortable and we shouldn't burden them with it. But try this, as one of our other posters have suggested: Suppose there was a unisex toilet with stalls, but there was also an attendant on duty, capable of keeping order or summoning the police if necessary. What would be the moral position there?

Or we could stop bowing down to the delusion a man can become a woman or vice versa since it has done our society so much harm collectively and to these unfortunate individuals.

They need REAL help with therapy and medication.

 

[RileyG]

Thinking of public toilets in Europe--which generally have attendants, I assumed a proper stall with partitions and a door which go clear to the floor, and a secure latch on the inside.

Hmmm….ive been to Europe three times in 6 different countries. Never one saw an attendant. Wonder how common it is and in which countries?