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How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

Freth

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Yes, the reformation caused split after split and among Christians with I don't know how many denominations today.
  • Apostasy; defection from the truth.
  • Opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
If you go back to Daniel, there is additional information.

Daniel 7:23-25 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.​
  • Subdues three kings.
  • Speaks great words against the most High.
  • Wears out the saints.
  • Thinks to change times and laws.
  • 1260 day/year prophecy.
 
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JSRG

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where does it say that they said for Luther to recant his 95 theses. It doesn’t. As I said they chose the ones they saw fit to reply to. As to the pink rectangles a topic or paragraph break up. I guess I like pink
It doesn't say he had to recant his 95 theses. That was my point, they didn't ask him to. However, you said, referring to the author of Exurge Domine, "But he is very direct about Martin recanting all that he wrote on his 95 Theseus and that all would be forgiven if he did." But there is no direct statement that Exsurge Domine recant everything from them.
 
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JSRG

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I don’t know why there are rectangles It’s not my doing and I don’t see them

I have not appealed to anything. I inquired if the poster had read the points contained in them or is repeating what others have said
There is no fault in reading what others have said, but we need to refer to original sources to be lovers of truth and not gossips
You mention that Luther corrected theological errors but do not mention what any of them are or were. It’s a psychological trick to make a disparaging remark and blame the listener for not believing you because they do not have the time to read sources that may be in error. Is my time not valuable? A claim is made, it is the responsibility of the accuser to present the evidence, not have the listener rely on hearsay

This conversation requires us to examine the 95 thesis and Exurge Domini as they are primary sources
Why are you replying to my message as if I replied to you? I wasn't quoting or replying to you at all.
 
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DaveM

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What basis would you use to call the Catholic Church evil, assuming that you do so?
my personal experience growing up Catholic is they do not teach one must be born again freed from the enslavement of sin to enter heaven. They teach confession to a Preist washes your sin clean, and you get a fresh slate. What this did to me was cause a cycle of sin, sinner all week confess on Sat and thought I was good, never experiencing the saving grace of God. BUt living a lie. They did not teach me repentance stop spinning, they taught me the priest will forgive you.

NOt until I was intentional about reading the Bible and seeking God did I learn the things of God and got out of that denomination. I think the powers to be are evil, I think many are fooled and mean well but do not read the bible for themselves.
I have nothing against them, as I was once fooled myself,
 
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Valletta

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my personal experience growing up Catholic is they do not teach one must be born again freed from the enslavement of sin to enter heaven. They teach confession to a Preist washes your sin clean, and you get a fresh slate. What this did to me was cause a cycle of sin, sinner all week confess on Sat and thought I was good, never experiencing the saving grace of God. BUt living a lie. They did not teach me repentance stop spinning, they taught me the priest will forgive you.

NOt until I was intentional about reading the Bible and seeking God did I learn the things of God and got out of that denomination. I think the powers to be are evil, I think many are fooled and mean well but do not read the bible for themselves.
I have nothing against them, as I was once fooled myself,
The Catholic Church teaches that being born again, receiving the sacrament of Baptism, is necessary, just as the Bible says. However, the Church does not preclude God saving those who have not been Baptized, knowing that God is all powerful and merciful, but the Bible tells us Baptism is the way. As to confession, know that the Son of Man has the power to forgive, and know that he has the power to work through men. Finally, the Bible is the book of the Catholic Church, the Church chose the 73 books of the Bible and preached the Gospel and copied and translated the Bible over all of these centuries.

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” RSVCE
 
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Kathleen30

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It doesn't say he had to recant his 95 theses. That was my point, they didn't ask him to. However, you said, referring to the author of Exurge Domine, "But he is very direct about Martin recanting all that he wrote on his 95 Theseus and that all would be forgiven if he did." But there is no direct statement that Exsurge Domine recant everything from them.
Jsrg. Again I never said they did. What I said in post 132 is that they chose what they felt was heresy attributed to Luther out of his 95 theses. That’s correct they did not mention all. Do you think Luther should have recanted?
 
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Valletta

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Jsrg. Again I never said they did. What I said in post 132 is that they chose what they felt was heresy attributed to Luther out of his 95 theses. That’s correct they did not mention all. Do you think Luther should have recanted?
Luther should have accepted the request to meet and openly discuss his claims with Church authorities and of course recanted his false charges. Tragically, he was a very troubled individual. Today in regard to confession they would call it OCD, scrupulosity, and he had depression as can be seen in his writings. What set him off was when some of his students came back from listening to Tetzel and some even received indulgences, and he seemed furious that they would put so much stock in someone else. Tetzel had also said that indulgences could be applied to past loved ones who had died. Very soon after that Luther submitted his 95 theses.
 
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JSRG

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Jsrg. Again I never said they did. What I said in post 132 is that they chose what they felt was heresy attributed to Luther out of his 95 theses. That’s correct they did not mention all.

I am confused. You say "I never said they did" (in reference to demanding Luther recant the 95 Theses). But you said "But he is very direct about Martin recanting all that he wrote on his 95 Theseus and that all would be forgiven if he did." I mentioned that in the very post you are replying to. Again, here was what you said originally:

Have I read the Exurgic Donine I’ve read some from our publication's and studies but not all. But one thing is certain the pope does not address all of Luther’s 95 theses only the ones that he chooses and some of the replies are rather vague . But he is very direct about Martin recanting all that he wrote on his 95 Theseus and that all would be forgiven if he did. And if not then to be excommunicated and classed as a heretic.
So what are you saying? You said he--referring to the pope--was "very direct about Martin recanting all that he wrote on his 95 Theseus [sic]". But after I pointed out this was inaccurate, you are now insisting "I never said they did" and admitting they were not mentioned it at all in Exsurge Domine.

Your statements now are in contradiction with what you said previously. You said very clearly that the pope demanded he recant all his 95 Theses, but then turn around and say you didn't say that very thing you said. Did you perhaps phrase your original post poorly and said something you did not intend to?
 
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Kathleen30

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I am confused. You say "I never said they did" (in reference to demanding Luther recant the 95 Theses). But you said "But he is very direct about Martin recanting all that he wrote on his 95 Theseus and that all would be forgiven if he did." I mentioned that in the very post you are replying to. Again, here was what you said originally:


So what are you saying? You said he--referring to the pope--was "very direct about Martin recanting all that he wrote on his 95 Theseus [sic]". But after I pointed out this was inaccurate, you are now insisting "I never said they did" and admitting they were not mentioned it at all in Exsurge Domine.

Your statements now are in contradiction with what you said previously. You said very clearly that the pope demanded he recant all his 95 Theses, but then turn around and say you didn't say that very thing you said. Did you perhaps phrase your original post poorly and said something you did not intend to?

I am confused. You say "I never said they did" (in reference to demanding Luther recant the 95 Theses). But you said "But he is very direct about Martin recanting all that he wrote on his 95 Theseus and that all would be forgiven if he did." I mentioned that in the very post you are replying to. Again, here was what you said originally:


So what are you saying? You said he--referring to the pope--was "very direct about Martin recanting all that he wrote on his 95 Theseus [sic]". But after I pointed out this was inaccurate, you are now insisting "I never said they did" and admitting they were not mentioned it at all in Exsurge Domine.

Your statements now are in contradiction with what you said previously. You said very clearly that the pope demanded he recant all his 95 Theses, but then turn around and say you didn't say that very thing you said. Did you perhaps phrase your original post poorly and said something you did not intend to?
Jsrg. No contradiction at all. Whilst the pope never mentioned all of Luther’s 95 thesis’s to be recanted. But if Luther were to recant that would automatically make the entire document invalid . It could no longer be called the 95 thesis. Perhaps the 30 thesis’s perhaps the 40 thesis that is of course if Luther were to rescind and update. And that if the pope allowed . Then the entire 95 thesis’s document would be invalid. My apologies I thought that was self evident if Luther did recant the 95 thesis document as the pope demanded to whatever number that he was allowed Then it would as mentioned above make the entirety of the 95 thesis’s document invalid. Hope that clears everything up .
 
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Kathleen30

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Luther should have accepted the request to meet and openly discuss his claims with Church authorities and of course recanted his false charges. Tragically, he was a very troubled individual. Today in regard to confession they would call it OCD, scrupulosity, and he had depression as can be seen in his writings. What set him off was when some of his students came back from listening to Tetzel and some even received indulgences, and he seemed furious that they would put so much stock in someone else. Tetzel had also said that indulgences could be applied to past loved ones who had died. Very soon after that Luther submitted his 95 theses.
Valletta I do think Martin had appeared before the Cardinal Thomas Cajetan at a general assembly in Augsburg in 1518. They had two meeting with Cardinal Cajetan on orders from the pope that Martin was to recant. The discussions did not go well . Cardinal Cajetan even pulled out a papal bull document from 1343 of pope Clement VI that allowed for popes the authority to issue the practise of indulgences. It was then that Martin fully realised that Cardinal Cajetan didn’t give a fig about holy scripture but only of the traditions of men. Of course all this took place under the protection of Fredrick the wise
IMG_4094.jpeg
You than say that Luther should have traveled further afield and taken up the offer from the church to discuss things further. Well those exact promises were given to Czech reformer Jan Hus of safe passage and protection to be able expound his theolgy before the council. And so it was in 1415 at the council of Constance in Konatanz Germany that those promises were broken and Jan Hus was brought before the court branded as a heritic and put to death.. but you are entitled to your opinion. But one can also see and justify the reasons why he did not take up the offer. After all he was to be officially branded a heretic in the coming months. He might have ended up just as Jan Hus with the broken promises and assurances given to him. Dead
 
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Kathleen30

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Luther should have accepted the request to meet and openly discuss his claims with Church authorities and of course recanted his false charges. Tragically, he was a very troubled individual. Today in regard to confession they would call it OCD, scrupulosity, and he had depression as can be seen in his writings. What set him off was when some of his students came back from listening to Tetzel and some even received indulgences, and he seemed furious that they would put so much stock in someone else. Tetzel had also said that indulgences could be applied to past loved ones who had died. Very soon after that Luther submitted his 95 theses.
Valletta I do think Martin had appeared before the Cardinal Thomas Cajetan at a general assembly in Augsburg in 1518. They had two meeting with Cardinal Cajetan on orders from the pope that Martin was to recant. The discussions did not go well . Cardinal Cajetan even pulled out a papal bull document from 1343 of pope Clement VI that allowed for popes the authority to issue the practise of indulgences. It was that Martin fully realised that Cardinal Cajetan didn’t give a fig about holy scripture but only of the traditions of men. Of course all this took place under the protection of Fredrick the wise. View attachment 366342 You than say that Luther should have traveled further afield and taken up the offer from the church to discuss things further. Well those exact promises were given to Czech reformer Jan Hus of safe passage and protection to be able expound his theolgy before the council
 
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Amo2

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Protestantism was not practiced until the 16th century, so I am not sure how it can be construed as orthodox. Its teachings were unheard of in the Church prior to that time. With Jesus being the same yesterday today and forever, you are going to have to study history to resolve your position.

If you won’t do that, then it just comes down to the musings of men being purported to be orthodox scripture. Why is there higher place given to new teachings started by men over centuries of Christian thought?

Should we not look for consistency of teaching ?
Protestantism was around long before the 16th century. Bible believing Christians who rejected many teachings of the Roman Catholic church existed and were persecuted long before the name of Protestant was attached to them in Luther's day. Luther and others were rightly declared to believe and practice teachings of other supposed heretics before them. There were always bible believing Christians who did not accept the teachings and usurped authority which the Roman Pontiffs and clergy declared for themselves.
 
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Jerry N.

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I consider many Catholics my brothers and sisters in Christ, as I have stated before. One of the problems with the Catholic Church I can’t get around is the number of bad popes and priest, which was one of the contributing factors in the Reformation. Supposedly, popes can condemn to hell anyone who disagrees with them, which they did many times. There are also many bad Protestant pastors in churches since the Reformation, but they don’t have the power to condemn people who disagree with them, though they might try. One reason there are so many Protestant denominations is because people can just leave and form their own group. Sometimes it is good and sometimes it is bad, but there is a constant dialectic seeking the truth, usually through the study of the Bible. One bad example I know of is that a church split because a local artist painted a mural of Adam and Eve with belly buttons. On the other hand, the Methodists just split over the adoption of “woke” culture. It happens fairly quickly, but corruptions in the Roman Church takes place from one pope to another. If there is a bad pope, one must just wait for him to die and hope the next pope is better. The believing Christian who is Catholic has to put up with a corrupt “Vicar of Christ” and hold conflicting ideas about his or her faith for many years. This is particularly true if the person fears damnation for leaving the church.
 
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NewLifeInChristJesus

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We have no tolerance for falsehood, but there must be things we do not know, or is it possible to have been taught wrong or mislead? How would you know? I only wish to know your standard of discernment
These are very good questions. I have given much thought to this over the past few years. Reflecting on my own experiences overcomming false doctrines, I have concluded that the only way to break free of falsehoods is to trust the Holy Spirit as He leads us into truth from the intimacy of our own hearts. This is clearly described in the following verses...

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. (1 Jn 2:26–27)​

Avoiding false doctrine (i.e., not accepting it in the first place) and overcomming false doctrine (i.e., breaking free after being snared by it) requires faith. We hear His warnings, His insight, His wisdom, and His instructions and we walk as He leads. There is not another way to accomplish these things because, "For we walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Co 5:7).
 
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my personal experience growing up Catholic is they do not teach one must be born again freed from the enslavement of sin to enter heaven. They teach confession to a Preist washes your sin clean, and you get a fresh slate. What this did to me was cause a cycle of sin, sinner all week confess on Sat and thought I was good, never experiencing the saving grace of God. BUt living a lie. They did not teach me repentance stop spinning, they taught me the priest will forgive you.

NOt until I was intentional about reading the Bible and seeking God did I learn the things of God and got out of that denomination. I think the powers to be are evil, I think many are fooled and mean well but do not read the bible for themselves.
I have nothing against them, as I was once fooled myself,

I understand how you feel, as I grew up the same way. The same feelings caused me to leave the Church and thinking I had found a true Biblical Church instead of Catholic.
What I found was those who use the Bible to oppose the Catholic Church and their experiences of her, but no one ever says what Catholic teachings are wrong and the Biblical evidence to support them
These are very good questions. I have given much thought to this over the past few years. Reflecting on my own experiences overcomming false doctrines, I have concluded that the only way to break free of falsehoods is to trust the Holy Spirit as He leads us into truth from the intimacy of our own hearts. This is clearly described in the following verses...

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. (1 Jn 2:26–27)​

Avoiding false doctrine (i.e., not accepting it in the first place) and overcomming false doctrine (i.e., breaking free after being snared by it) requires faith. We hear His warnings, His insight, His wisdom, and His instructions and we walk as He leads. There is not another way to accomplish these things because, "For we walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Co 5:7).

That still does not answer as to how you tell it is the Holy Spirt to whom you are listening, rather than a deceitful spirit disguised as an angel of light. How do you know?
Is it feelings? This way just seems right to me, other people have told me and I believe them?
You do know that scripture says that there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

How do you know that you are not on the wrong path?
 
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Amo2

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I understand how you feel, as I grew up the same way. The same feelings caused me to leave the Church and thinking I had found a true Biblical Church instead of Catholic.
What I found was those who use the Bible to oppose the Catholic Church and their experiences of her, but no one ever says what Catholic teachings are wrong and the Biblical evidence to support them


That still does not answer as to how you tell it is the Holy Spirt to whom you are listening, rather than a deceitful spirit disguised as an angel of light. How do you know?
Is it feelings? This way just seems right to me, other people have told me and I believe them?
You do know that scripture says that there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

How do you know that you are not on the wrong path?
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
 
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We use scripture to discern why Jesus has taught us certain things. In Hebrews, the writer whom we believe to be Paul, gives us a very chilling statement. It should shake us to the core and fall on our knees before a Holy God. If it doesn’t, then the fear of God is not before our eyes. The verse is:

26 For if we sin wilfully after having the knowledge of the truth, there is now left no sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain dreadful expectation of judgment, and the rage of a fire which shall consume the adversaries. 28 A man making void the law of Moses, dieth without any mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.


Why is this scary? Because we are so easily overcome by sin. We have come to Jesus, He has forgiven all our sins, but then we sin again, not out of habit but willfully. There is no longer any sacrifice for sin. We have cut ourselves off from God and no longer have access to His sacrifice, as we counted it an unholy thing and trampled it on the ground.
This is why Catholics cannot receive His body and blood while in a state of mortal sin. They are cut off from the sacrifice.
What can we do? Before He ascended into heaven, Jesus gave His apostles the power to forgive sins and prescribe penance.
We read in John 20

21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.


Jesus knew we were weak and would sin again, so He gave His Apostles His power to forgive or retain.
We come to a priest to confess, not because he can forgive our sins, but because he represents Jesus from whom we seek forgiveness, and then the priest prescribes acts of penance for us to demonstrate godly sorrow for our sins. If we don’t do the penance, our sins are retained by the words of Christ acting through the priest. It is what Jesus directly says in Scripture, not what the Catholic Church made up to control the people

We can see that if we sin once we received Jesus, we have rejected His sacrifice and we cannot crucify Him again and bring Him to open shame. To receive forgiveness, we must confess and do penance as prescribed by Christ’s representative

To ignore that gift God has given us would be to act very presumptuously if done deliberately. You may be safe at the throne of grace if you can claim that you did not know any better, but I am not gong to take that chance. I am gong to confession

I don’t see how we can interpret these scriptures any other way than how the Catholic Church interprets them.

Another verse that should bring holy fear of God were it not for the gift of confession which He bestowed on His priests

. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once illuminated, have tasted also the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 Have moreover tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 And are fallen away: to be renewed again to penance, crucifying again to themselves the Son of God, and making him a mockery
 
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2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Agreed, the operative word being ALL scripture
 
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