How is it that the Catholic Church is evil?

[boughtwithaprice]

Good discussion in general, as it brings to mind and demonstrates the words of Our Lord whom is the Word of God.

This is not a light subject, as it involves our eternal destiny, which I believe most of us here would want the best possible outcome. Several Scriptures come to mind, and we should consider them carefully.

Galatians 6:7-8

7 Be not deceived, God is not mocked.

8 For what things a man shall sow, those also shall he reap. For he that soweth in his flesh, of the flesh also shall reap corruption. But he that soweth in the spirit, of the spirit shall reap life everlasting.


Matthew 7

1 Judge not, that you may not be judged, 2 For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged: and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you again.


Proverbs 18:12-13


12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.

13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.


Matthew 5:7

7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.


Given these scriptures it is not wise to proclaim another Christian group as evil, unless they are fully investigated and it can be definitely shown to contradict God’s word. In investigating someone, we look for definitive evidence, not hearsay. Go to the source of their teaching, not what someone else has written or said. That is hearsay. I heard someone said…. Is that how you would wish to be judged yourself? Do you really want to stand on your own reputation instead of who you really are? Then don’t do it to others or God will judge you on your reputation, because He said He would and God cannot lie.

Also, if one is not a member of a group, it is best not to make definitive statements against them.
It is also advisable to make sure that a group is actually anti-scripture and not just against your own interpretation of scripture. Do we claim to know all the answers or is more investigation needed?
When we have an interpretation of scripture, it is best to look to history to see if that interpretation has been proposed before, and what happened to those that proposed it? Were they proven right or dismissed by consensus?


When we judge, we are telling God that we have thought a matter completely through, and we know that God will judge us in the same way.
If you listen, you can hear God say, Is that your final answer?

 

[boughtwithaprice]

That’s challenging for sure. Have you looked into alternative options too? Natural remedies have a place and pain management is possible through other methods when needed. And age is an important factor as you’ve noted. It’s better to start when you’re young when possible.



Overall, we‘re experiencing a decline in church attendance and a rise of nones. Many people are following ministries and teachings online and that’s their avenue for spiritual nourishment. I have no personal grievance with catholics and you can’t dictate someone’s relationship with God. But I’m not going to mass or involving myself in their practices nor do I visit other churches. The person determines the sacredness of the pulpit not the other way around. It isn’t holy by default. We all have a spirit within us and that’s what determines its sancity.

~bella

That’s challenging for sure. Have you looked into alternative options too? Natural remedies have a place and pain management is possible through other methods when needed. And age is an important factor as you’ve noted. It’s better to start when you’re young when possible.



Overall, we‘re experiencing a decline in church attendance and a rise of nones. Many people are following ministries and teachings online and that’s their avenue for spiritual nourishment. I have no personal grievance with catholics and you can’t dictate someone’s relationship with God. But I’m not going to mass or involving myself in their practices nor do I visit other churches. The person determines the sacredness of the pulpit not the other way around. It isn’t holy by default. We all have a spirit within us and that’s what determines its sancity.

~bella

So you are saying that the Holiness of God is dependent on the holiness of people? I will grant you that proposition is the opposite of Catholic theology. We go by the principle known as Ex Opere Operato, or by the work performed
It is the Holy Spirt whom empowers His Church.
God does not depend on His creation. His creation lives fully dependent on Him

This is an excellent post to discuss on this day of Pentecost, the birthday of the Church. The Apostles were infused with the power of the Holy Spirt with tounges of fire, they did not assume that power for themselves

 

[bèlla]

So you are saying that the Holiness of God is dependent on the holiness of people? I will grant you that proposition is the opposite of Catholic theology. We go by the principle known as Ex Opere Operato, or by the work performed
It is the Holy Spirt whom empowers His Church.

The portion you quoted is in relation to the person’s spouse and how he deal with her health if resources were scarce. Hence the mention of natural remedies. As for the other, a person not aligned with the Lord isn’t walking with the Holy Spirit. They’re driven by the flesh or other factors. Which is why you have bad players in all denominations (including catholicism) and there’s a consequence to their presence.

God does not depend on His creation. His creation lives fully dependent on Him

I have never suggested otherwise nor do I exalt man’s position in relation to Him or consider him an intermediary in any fashion. That was resolved at the cross in my opinion. He can be a vessel in His service. But we’re in-dwelt for a reason and the strength of that tether differs for each. The more attentive you are the stronger the bond and the deeper revelation. And no two are the same.

My primary concern is spiritual rootedness in myself and my descendants. We exist do the Lord’s work and fulfill our purpose as designed and I won’t allow any theology to impede it. That’s my conviction. Others may disagree and that’s okay. I don’t need their approval. I wouldn’t care one whit if someone disagreed with me being catholic if I felt that’s where I belonged and I wouldn’t pander to them or defend myself.

~bella

 

[Kathleen30]

Have you read St Ignatius of Loyola ? He is the founder of the Jesuits. With all due respect, if you do not read and quote him, then you are believing rumors and accusations. History is full of conflict and strife. A Christian denies themself and looks for the actual cause aka the truth and does not seek to lay blame in a casual manner
If the Jesuits are to blame, you will find it in the writings of their founder

I do know some. If you be referring to his book ( the spiritual exercises. It’s a mixed bag. His writings on the ministry of Jesus is most uplifting. His writings on the 5 spiritual exercises remind one of Scientology emptying one’s entire mind and body over to confession. Along with abundance of other non Christian practices such as self flagellation and the worship of Father Son and the holy Mary . Though the Holy Spirit does pop up from time to time : ) There also be the matter of breathing techniques mentioned with the method of prayer. Which is bordering mystical practice. It seems to me to be more a manual used by a confident or a priest on up coming adepts. I guess after 4 wks of being subjected to that kind of mind control your mind might be broken and you would surely become a child Rome.

 

[BobRyan]

I practice anesthesia, and I have had anesthesia myself. The feeling of an anesthetic is almost like teleportation though time. I can only remember going in and the next thing I know I am waking up, though more than an hour has passed.

But in that case the patient still has a pulse, and the brain still registers activity. Time is passing.

IN the state of death - the brain does not exist. Zero time for the person is "passing" as we see in Phil 1 "depart and be with Christ". as the "sleep state". Followed by the 1 Thess 4:13-18 rapture/resurrection. So that dormant state of death is far cleaner than the anesthesia state.

In surgery propofol is used in surgery to produce amnesia. It appears that it may be both preventing the brain from making new memories and erasing the most recent record created by the brain. But in death the brain is not creating a record of the passing of time.

Your theory is at death, we are instantly transported to the end of time at the final judgement with no consciousness of time past.

Indeed - so the experience of the one who dies is not "sleep" - it is not the "passing of time" rather it is instantly going from the point of death to the point of resurrection. No gap.

However, in scripture we see that there is a dream world or separate place of consciousness.

I don't see "dream world" or "separate place of consciousness" in scripture.

Joseph spoke with an angel in a dream to be told about Mary and Jesus

Neither Joseph nor Mary nor Jesus were said to be dead at that time. They all had functioning brains, recording the entire time.

Christ speaks of the bosom of Abraham.

In Luke 16 Christ gives the parable of the rich man and Lazarus and mentions "abraham's lap" where Abraham is in charge of all the dead who are in his lap.

No mention of God at all in that parable.
The lesson of the parable according to Christ is "if they do not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one rises from the dead"

Notice that even in that parable the dead could not benefit the living without first being resurrected

In other parables the trees go out to elect a king.

The souls of the dead are before the throne of God crying how long will God have wait.

In Rev 6 we don't have "souls before the throne of God." rather all the souls are "under the altar" - that is a lot of symbolism in an apocalyptic book. Not literal in that case.

At the transfiguration, Moses, who had died , appeared talking with Christ along with Elijah who had not previously died.

true.

But that is not a problem for the case of Elijah who never died. Moses appears with Elijah and both appear to be in the same state of fully animated/alive not "sleeping" any any sense of the word.

And Jude quotes from the book "The Assumption of Moses" when Jude references a verbal exchange between Michael and the devil - discussing the bodily resurrection of Moses and his assumption into heaven

Where did they go and where did they come from,

It appears that both of them came from heaven - where they were both very much alive not dead in any sense, not asleep in any sense.

Jesus gives us a thought about the separation of body and soul, when at His death He says Father into your hands I commend my spirit. His body lay lifeless, but He had gone to be with the Father.

1. When Jesus was resurrected He tells Mary "do not touch Me - I have not yet ascended to My Father"
2. Jesus was both fully God and fully human. Many accept the fact that His God nature could not die. Comparing humans in death to the God-man Jesus in death - does not have have the full-equivalence that your point would need in that case to argue that humans are every bit aware in death - as the God-man Jesus was.

 

[Valletta]

I do know some. If you be referring to his book ( the spiritual exercises. It’s a mixed bag. His writings on the ministry of Jesus is most uplifting. His writings on the 5 spiritual exercises remind one of Scientology emptying one’s entire mind and body over to confession. Along with abundance of other non Christian practices such as self flagellation and the worship of Father Son and the holy Mary . Though the Holy Spirit does pop up from time to time : ) There also be the matter of breathing techniques mentioned with the method of prayer. Which is bordering mystical practice. It seems to me to be more a manual used by a confident or a priest on up coming adepts. I guess after 4 wks of being subjected to that kind of mind control your mind might be broken and you would surely become a child Rome.

Have you actually read any of his books? Or is this just information from someone else?

 

[Kathleen30]

Have you actually read any of his books? Or is this just information from someone else?

Well Valletta I think I just explained that in post 64. YES. To your question I have read I’ll reply to your other post later. The site has a habit of refreshing and wiping ones post in progress

 

[Kathleen30]

Early Modern Variations on the Theme of Complicity: How Jesuits Came to Be Linked with Regicide​

Early Modern Variations on the Theme of Complicity: How Jesuits Came to Be Linked with Regicide

Abstract In the long history of anti-Jesuitism, the accusation that the Society of Jesus endorsed assassination and used it as a means to pursue its goals hardened into one of the recurring topoi that were repeatedly invoked to malign the order. However, the Society was clearly not born with...

brill.com

Even the anti-Catholic Britannica has a link with reality:

Popish Plot | Catholic, James II & Exclusion Crisis | Britannica

Popish Plot, (1678), in English history, a totally fictitious but widely believed plot in which it was alleged that Jesuits were planning the assassination of King Charles II in order to bring his Roman Catholic brother, the Duke of York (afterward King James II), to the throne. The allegations

www.britannica.com

Valletta I don’t remember ever mentioning anything about the alleged assassination of King Charles being committed by the Jesuits. I did mention their involvement with attempts on queen Elizabeth and King James with the gun powder plot. But thank you for the information on that.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

The portion you quoted is in relation to the person’s spouse and how he deal with her health if resources were scarce. Hence the mention of natural remedies. As for the other, a person not aligned with the Lord isn’t walking with the Holy Spirit. They’re driven by the flesh or other factors. Which is why you have bad players in all denominations (including catholicism) and there’s a consequence to their presence.



I have never suggested otherwise nor do I exalt man’s position in relation to Him or consider him an intermediary in any fashion. That was resolved at the cross in my opinion. He can be a vessel in His service. But we’re in-dwelt for a reason and the strength of that tether differs for each. The more attentive you are the stronger the bond and the deeper revelation. And no two are the same.

My primary concern is spiritual rootedness in myself and my descendants. We exist do the Lord’s work and fulfill our purpose as designed and I won’t allow any theology to impede it. That’s my conviction. Others may disagree and that’s okay. I don’t need their approval. I wouldn’t care one whit if someone disagreed with me being catholic if I felt that’s where I belonged and I wouldn’t pander to them or defend myself.

~bella

The portion you quoted is in relation to the person’s spouse and how he deal with her health if resources were scarce. Hence the mention of natural remedies. As for the other, a person not aligned with the Lord isn’t walking with the Holy Spirit. They’re driven by the flesh or other factors. Which is why you have bad players in all denominations (including catholicism) and there’s a consequence to their presence.



I have never suggested otherwise nor do I exalt man’s position in relation to Him or consider him an intermediary in any fashion. That was resolved at the cross in my opinion. He can be a vessel in His service. But we’re in-dwelt for a reason and the strength of that tether differs for each. The more attentive you are the stronger the bond and the deeper revelation. And no two are the same.

My primary concern is spiritual rootedness in myself and my descendants. We exist do the Lord’s work and fulfill our purpose as designed and I won’t allow any theology to impede it. That’s my conviction. Others may disagree and that’s okay. I don’t need their approval. I wouldn’t care one whit if someone disagreed with me being catholic if I felt that’s where I belonged and I wouldn’t pander to them or defend myself.

~bella

You have a good attitude. We need to detach our hearts from material things and esteem of the world. Our relationship with God is not dependent on human approval, else is it really a relationship with God? I commend your final statement in your above post

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I do know some. If you be referring to his book ( the spiritual exercises. It’s a mixed bag. His writings on the ministry of Jesus is most uplifting. His writings on the 5 spiritual exercises remind one of Scientology emptying one’s entire mind and body over to confession. Along with abundance of other non Christian practices such as self flagellation and the worship of Father Son and the holy Mary . Though the Holy Spirit does pop up from time to time : ) There also be the matter of breathing techniques mentioned with the method of prayer. Which is bordering mystical practice. It seems to me to be more a manual used by a confident or a priest on up coming adepts. I guess after 4 wks of being subjected to that kind of mind control your mind might be broken and you would surely become a child Rome.

That is an interesting take on that book, but I am impressed that you actually tried to read it. I do wonder why you would think it would remind you of a false religion.

In light of 2 Corinthians 10:5 to take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ
And Romans 12:1 to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, would you say that the spiritual exercises go against the word of God?

Ignatian spirituality is not for everyone and not all Catholics are Jesuits, but would it be fair to call them evil for obeying God?

It is the meaning of Judge not, lest ye be judged. We don’t have to like them and want to join them, but neither should their obedience be condemned. There are many things to dislike about the Jesuits, but their obedience to God in the exercises is not one of them

 

[Kathleen30]

There is no "official Roman Catholic Church," the Catholic Church (and "catholic" means "universal") began when Jesus founded the Church. "Roman" is one of the rites of the Catholic Church, it is the largest rite but there are others. Books for the mass differed from area to area, while the Gospels were widely accepted there were some difference and the Catholic Church wanted only God-breathed books to be used for readings at the mass. Although "bibles" are referred to under Constantine, as I've said the lists became closer to the final 73 selected by the Catholic Church as time passed, and the "bibles" under Constantine in the early 300s were getting much closer to the final canon decided upon the the Catholic Church later in the century. Saint Athanasius is credited with the first New Testament Biblical canon list in 367 A.D. The list was approved by Pope Damasus, and formally approved of by Councils at Hippo and Carthage in the late 300s. Pope Innocent I wrote a letter to the Bishop of Toulouse in 405 A.D. containing the list. After Latin surpassed Greek as the common language of the people, the Latin Vulgate under the direction of Saint Jerome from 383 to 404 A.D. became by far the standard Bible. "Vulgate" comes from "vulgar" or "common," meaning the common language of the people. Pope Saint Gregory the Great was the 64th pope.

Valetta you confuse me some when say there is no Roman Catholic Church and say only Catholic which does mean universal then your referring to every Christian past present and future from every Christian denomination which I have no problem with. But the Roman Catholic Church thinks some differenty. They claim for themselves only to have the keys of St Peter and apostolic succession through all their popes. Could you clear that up in what you are referring to as the universel church. Is it the entirety of the church or just the Roman Catholic-universal church.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

But in that case the patient still has a pulse, and the brain still registers activity. Time is passing.

IN the state of death - the brain does not exist. Zero time for the person is "passing" as we see in Phil 1 "depart and be with Christ". as the "sleep state". Followed by the 1 Thess 4:13-18 rapture/resurrection. So that dormant state of death is far cleaner than the anesthesia state.

In surgery propofol is used in surgery to produce amnesia. It appears that it may be both preventing the brain from making new memories and erasing the record created by the brain. But in death the brain is not creating a record of the passing of time.

Indeed - so the experience of the one who dies is not "sleep" - it is not the "passing of time" rather it is instantly going from the point of death to the point of resurrection. No gap.

I don't see "dream world" or "separate place of consciousness" in scripture.

Neither Joseph nor Mary nor Jesus were said to be dead at that time. They all had functioning brains, recording the entire time.

In Luke 16 Christ gives the parable of the rich man and Lazarus and mentions "abraham's lap" where Abraham is in charge of all the dead who are in his lap.

No mention of God at all in that parable.
The lesson of the parable according to Christ is "if they do not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one rises from the dead"

Notice that even in that parable the dead could not benefit the living without first being resurrected

In other parables the trees go out to elect a king.


In Rev 6 we don't have "souls before the throne of God." rather all the souls are "under the altar" - that is a lot of symbolism in an apocalyptic book. Not literal in that case.

true.

But that is not a problem for the case of Elijah who never died. Moses appears with Elijah and both appear to be in the same state of fully animated/alive not "sleeping" any any sense of the word.

And Jude quotes from the book "The Assumption of Moses" when Jude references a verbal exchange between Michael and the devil - discussing the bodily resurrection of Moses and his assumption into heaven

It appears that both of them came from heaven - where they were both very much alive not dead in any sense, not asleep in any sense.

1. When Jesus was resurrected He tells Mary "do not touch Me - I have not yet ascended to My Father"
2. Jesus was both fully God and fully human. Many accept the fact that His God nature could not die. Comparing humans in death to the God-man Jesus in death - does not have have the full-equivalence that your point would need in that case to argue that humans are every bit aware in death - as the God-man Jesus was.

It’s an interesting contemplation of death that you have. It would seem to make one more materialistic, rather than spiritual. There is no spirit, only Earth and when we are resurrected on the last day.
It begs the question, what did Jesus come back to cleanse in 1843? Why would Heaven need to be cleansed of there is no one there?
What did Ellen White see in her visions? Was she looking through time to see the future not yet taking place?

Your position requires much contemplation. Certain concepts need to be resolved if we are to believe that matter and spirit are equivalent rather than having the ability to separate

 

[Kathleen30]

That is an interesting take on that book, but I am impressed that you actually tried to read it. I do wonder why you would think it would remind you of a false religion.

In light of 2 Corinthians 10:5 to take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ
And Romans 12:1 to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, would you say that the spiritual exercises go against the word of God?

Ignatian spirituality is not for everyone and not all Catholics are Jesuits, but would it be fair to call them evil for obeying God?

It is the meaning of Judge not, lest ye be judged. We don’t have to like them and want to join them, but neither should their obedience be condemned. There are many things to dislike about the Jesuits, but their obedience to God in the exercises is not one of them

Broughtwithaprice from memory the book not be so big perhaps only around 170 pages. I’m sure if I went the full course recommended with Ignatius of some 4 wks things that might be a little different . All those prayers from midnight early morning afternoon and evening. All that on one’s knees while confessing so much. And how could we forget all the flagellation. And me Being a bad ass. The spanking or whipping or whatever the Catholic ones use would mean I would not be spared. Only in perhaps the gravity of the penance of whether I receive Soft, Medium or Red Raw : ) To me personally as a Christian prayer comes naturally. God be forever on our minds. We have passed into eternal life we not need penance and nor the continual remission of sins Broughtwithaprice thank you for your thoughts

 

[BobRyan]

It’s an interesting contemplation of death that you have. It would seem to make one more materialistic, rather than spiritual.

Jesus describes it as a dormant state in John 11 and in 1 Thess 4:13-18.
Matt 10:28 says that they "kill the body but not the soul... fear Him who is able to destroy both body and soul in fiery hell"

The soul most certainly does exist. Scripture saying that the person is dormant "our friend Lazarus sleeps I go that I may awaken HIM" - is not a strictly materialist view.

There is no spirit, only Earth and when we are resurrected on the last day.

Not true. The soul continues on - but in the John 11, 1 Thess 4:13-18 dormant state.

It begs the question, what did Jesus come back to cleanse in 1843?

Heb 8: "Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law; 5 who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “See,” He says, “that you make all things according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain.” 6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

God's sanctuary in heaven has two contexts for Christ's ministry there. The second phase began in 1844 - it is the judgment phase seen in Dan 7:9-10

It functions according to the rules of Rom 2:5-16
Which is also the rule of Christ in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them". The good tree - known by obedience, known by the good fruits of the Spirit - which includes obedience to the word of God

Why would Heaven need to be cleansed of there is no one there?

Heaven uses the sanctuary model for the Gospel. In that model there is both the daily service and the day of atonement service at the end of the year. That word translated "Cleanse" in Dan 8:14 has many aspects "restore, justify" etc.

Dan 7 says it is a review of the books of record in Dan 7:9-10

What did Ellen White see in her visions? Was she looking through time to see the future not yet taking place?

Her visions covered a lot of territory - from the war in heaven before the creation of Earth all the way to the New Jerusalem after the 1000 year millennium in heaven as seen in Rev 20.

Your position requires much contemplation. Certain concepts need to be resolved if we are to believe that matter and spirit are equivalent rather than having the ability to separate

Actually we teach that they separate at death - the Matt 10:28 position is what we take for that dormant state.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Broughtwithaprice from memory the book not be so big perhaps only around 170 pages. I’m sure if I went the full course recommended with Ignatius of some 4 wks things that might be a little different . All those prayers from midnight early morning afternoon and evening. All that on one’s knees while confessing so much. And how could we forget all the flagellation. And me Being a bad ass. The spanking or whipping or whatever the Catholic ones use would mean I would not be spared. Only in perhaps the gravity of the penance of whether I receive Soft, Medium or Red Raw : ) To me personally as a Christian prayer comes naturally. God be forever on our minds. We have passed into eternal life we not need penance and nor the continual remission of sins Broughtwithaprice thank you for your thoughts

Thank you for your reply. Can you tell me where jn the Bible it says that we need no penance?

I agree that once we have passed from death to life, we will no longer need it as we shall see Him as He is, and we will know as we are fully known.

In this life, we are in spiritual battle. The spiritual battle takes place in our minds. We war against the sin of presumption, which is antinomianism, vs the sin of pelagianism which is working our way to heaven. Our life is not to be taken lightly, and we are admonished to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.
We are not to walk as the Church in Laodicea which says I am rich and have need of nothing while we are miserable blind poor and naked.
When Jesus preached the kingdom, He said repent and believe the Gospel. He said unless we repent and do penance we will perish. When we are called, we are to deny ourselves and walk in His footsteps.
We need not concern ourselves with the pleasure of this world, as it is perishing. We fast, we pray, we give alms and present our bodies as a living sacrifice. Why would scripture tell us to do this if it were no longer necessary? Scripture also says we will be judged by our works. We won’t be saved by them, but we will be judged by them.
I don’t see Jesus going from town to town and saying guys I got this. Just believe in me and you’ll be fine. He constantly challenged our thoughts and pleaded us to change our behavior
The scripture even says that to suffer willingly with patience is pleasing to God and will be rewarded
I do not believe that all of those scriptures should be discarded in favor of presuming God’s mercy without repentance. I agree that Pelegianism is to be countered, yet also is antinomiansim, which is the wanton disregard of sin in the presumption of God’s mercy.

 

[BobRyan]

Have you read St Ignatius of Loyola ? He is the founder of the Jesuits.

Ignatius has 15 letters - about half of them confirmed as fake letters. But there are also letters filled with interpolation and then some actual historic letters. Which ones are you talking about?

 

[David Lamb]

Thank you for your reply. Can you tell me where jn the Bible it says that we need no penance?

The bible doesn't even mention penance. Repentance, yes, but not penance.

 

[Jerry N.]

That’s challenging for sure. Have you looked into alternative options too? Natural remedies have a place and pain management is possible through other methods when needed. And age is an important factor as you’ve noted. It’s better to start when you’re young when possible.



Overall, we‘re experiencing a decline in church attendance and a rise of nones. Many people are following ministries and teachings online and that’s their avenue for spiritual nourishment. I have no personal grievance with catholics and you can’t dictate someone’s relationship with God. But I’m not going to mass or involving myself in their practices nor do I visit other churches. The person determines the sacredness of the pulpit not the other way around. It isn’t holy by default. We all have a spirit within us and that’s what determines its sancity.

~bella

We have both tried alternative medicines of various types. They have some benefit, but they don’t actually get the job done.

I could make a long list of things I disagree about Roman Catholic doctrine, but I would not be comfortable sharing them on this forum. However, I do believe that many Catholics have given their lives to Christ above the church. Traditions are hard to break, and many are not willing to break tradition because of social norms and family pressure. I have delicately tried, on this forum, to get users to see that many perceived and real doctrinal errors do not exclude people from being Christian brothers and sisters in Christ. I have been disappointed. The key is in believing that Christ died for the forgiveness of sin and overcome sin and death in the resurrection. Many other things are secondary, even though they are important and interesting.

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you for your reply. Can you tell me where jn the Bible it says that we need no penance?

That is like saying "Where in the Bible does it say we do not need an Easter Bunny" -- that is not how we establish Bible doctrine.

Rather we would say "Where in the Bible does it say we DO need an Easter Bunny?" and the answer would obviously be "we do not find that in the Bible"

In this life, we are in spiritual battle. The spiritual battle takes place in our minds.

agreed.

We war against the sin of presumption

agreed

, which is antinomianism,

agreed we do not want to be antinomian - i.e. against the Law of God

vs the sin of pelagianism which is working our way to heaven.

agreed -- we are not saved by works

Our life is not to be taken lightly, and we are admonished to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

agreed

We are not to walk as the Church in Laodicea which says I am rich and have need of nothing while we are miserable blind poor and naked.

agreed

When Jesus preached the kingdom, He said repent and believe the Gospel.

agreed

He said unless we repent and do penance we will perish.

nope.. don't have a text for that

When we are called, we are to deny ourselves and walk in His footsteps.

true. Matt 10 deny ourselves, deny our sinful nature, our sinful desires.

We need not concern ourselves with the pleasure of this world, as it is perishing.

agreed

We fast, we pray, we give alms and present our bodies as a living sacrifice.

agreed. But not as penance.

Why would scripture tell us to do this if it were no longer necessary?

You are equating the entire Christian life with "penance". Walking as Christ walked is merely Christian. It is true whether you ate breakfast today or you fasted.

Scripture also says we will be judged by our works.

True as we see in Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"
True as we see in Rom 2:5-16

We won’t be saved by them, but we will be judged by them.

agreed.

That judgment is seen in Rom 2:5-16 and in Dan 7:9-10

I don’t see Jesus going from town to town and saying guys I got this. Just believe in me and you’ll be fine. He constantly challenged our thoughts and pleaded us to change our behavior

agreed. He did not preach a cheap gospel of "say this phrase then live as you please". His was a "take up your cross and follow Me" Gospel as we see in Matt 10.

In 1 Cor 9 at the end of the chapter Paul says "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others - I myself shoulld be disqualified from it"

The scripture even says that to suffer willingly with patience is pleasing to God and will be rewarded

true.

I do not believe that all of those scriptures should be discarded in favor of presuming God’s mercy without repentance

agreed

. I agree that Pelegianism is to be countered, yet also is antinomiansim, which is the wanton disregard of sin in the presumption of God’s mercy.

agreed

 

[Jerry N.]

I understand the concept of penance, and a certain amount of fasting and denial of self is good for spiritual growth; however, our sins have been forgiven and we live to follow Christ. Contrition is good, but life has a way of making things difficult and painful, and I don’t see why we should add to it.