Pope Leo Faces First Major Test Over 'Morally Corrupt' Bishop

[RileyG]

How so?


Nah they abuse too, best not allow them in to be safe.

I have nothing else to add.

A vast majority of priests are NOT predators. To say otherwise, is flat out bigotry.

 

[DaisyDay]

The point was a vast majority of the abuse happened by homosexual priests. They should not be ordained. Period.

There seems to have been a culture of abuse. The abused become abusers all too often.

Also, there is screenings, psychological testing, background checks for the seminary. It’s a very robust process.

Makes more sense to ban the abusers rather than the non-abusers who happen to be gay.

 

[RileyG]

There seems to have been a culture of abuse. The abused become abusers all too often.

Makes more sense to ban the abusers rather than the non-abusers who happen to be gay.

Yes, that’s what I heard too.

Yes. Ban all abusers.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I don't think that heterosexual abuse is any better.

It's not...

It's just that the dynamics of that particular organization lends itself more to one type of abuse more than the other.


The John Jay report concluded that: Of the known victims, about 81% were male and 19% were female.

International findings were similar:

• In Australia’s Royal Commission report (2017), about 83% of victims were male.
• Germany’s 2018 church-commissioned study found around 72% of victims were male.

The dynamics I was referencing are that
A) the people in the highest levels of authority are men
B) the all-male clergy structure and frequent contact with altar boys, since there are no "altar girls", girls rarely had the same amount of private, prolonged, unsupervised interactions with the clergy

Also, there was that New York Times article called "It's not a closet, it's a cage", which was about the high percentage of gay male clergy in Catholic church, with estimates between 40-70% (which is way above the percentage in the general population)


They're basically creating the perfect conditions for that sort of thing to happen.


If there was a profession that was overwhelmingly staffed by straight men, and a strict rule of celibacy was imposed on them, and that job entailed unsupervised prolonged interactions with teenage girls, nobody would be shocked when reports of abuses against girls started popping up left and right.


Celibacy is not a normal state of being, and suppressing natural urges for an extended period of time (combined with elevated positions of power) is going lead to a lack of impulse control and leading people into behaviors that they may otherwise have not engaged in.

 

[RileyG]

It's not...

It's just that the dynamics of that particular organization lends itself more to one type of abuse more than the other.


The John Jay report concluded that: Of the known victims, about 81% were male and 19% were female.

International findings were similar:

• In Australia’s Royal Commission report (2017), about 83% of victims were male.
• Germany’s 2018 church-commissioned study found around 72% of victims were male.

The dynamics I was referencing are that
A) the people in the highest levels of authority are men
B) the all-male clergy structure and frequent contact with altar boys, since there are no "altar girls", girls rarely had the same amount of private, prolonged, unsupervised interactions with the clergy

Just for correction, altar girls have existed since 1992. Except they are not allowed in certain dioceses.

 

[RileyG]

It's not...

It's just that the dynamics of that particular organization lends itself more to one type of abuse more than the other.


The John Jay report concluded that: Of the known victims, about 81% were male and 19% were female.

International findings were similar:

• In Australia’s Royal Commission report (2017), about 83% of victims were male.
• Germany’s 2018 church-commissioned study found around 72% of victims were male.

The dynamics I was referencing are that
A) the people in the highest levels of authority are men
B) the all-male clergy structure and frequent contact with altar boys, since there are no "altar girls", girls rarely had the same amount of private, prolonged, unsupervised interactions with the clergy

Also, there was that New York Times article called "It's not a closet, it's a cage", which was about the high percentage of gay male clergy in Catholic church, with estimates between 40-70% (which is way above the percentage in the general population)


They're basically creating the perfect conditions for that sort of thing to happen.


If there was a profession that was overwhelmingly staffed by straight men, and a strict rule of celibacy was imposed on them, and that job entailed unsupervised prolonged interactions with teenage girls, nobody would be shocked when reports of abuses against girls started popping up left and right.


Celibacy is not a normal state of being, and suppressing natural urges for an extended period of time (combined with elevated positions of power) is going lead to a lack of impulse control and leading people into behaviors that they may otherwise have not engaged in.

I disagree about celibacy not being a normal state of being. Plenty of people can practice self control. Many, however, cannot.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I disagree about celibacy not being a normal state of being. Plenty of people can practice self control. Many, however, cannot.

How are we defining normal?

The Catholic Church is an outlier in regards to not allowing their clergy to get married.

When dealing with something that's biologically hardwired into our species, going against that is going to lead to some impulse control issues absent some sort of outlet.

Thomas Aquinas had a rather interesting take on that (if you're familiar with his stance on prostitution)

While he viewed it as an infraction, he suggested it should remain legal due to the fact that if people don't have a "lesser of two evils" outlet to satisfy certain biological urges, a certain number of people resort to much more heinous ways of satisfying those urges. (sound familiar?)

His words were: "If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust. If these social practices were to be suppressed, the public reaction might be to threaten the peace of society."


Another historical theologian (and the name escapes me right now) used a statement to describe the celibacy rule to the effect of (paraphrasing):

If you take a group of seemingly ethical people, and locked them in a room for 9 days, and on day 10, place a piece of bread in the room, you'll witness many of them behaving very unethically.


I took that to mean, when you're dealing with baked-in biological urges (which exist on a different level in terms of the amount of self control one needs to suppress it), the eventual implosion of that self-control is going to manifest itself in way that could otherwise be out of character.


On the spectrum of
"I really want that new video game, but I should really save some money so I'll hold off" <---> "I haven't eaten in a week, I have no money, and there's a bag of chips sitting there in the store and the clerk's not looking"

Forcing someone into a lifetime of celibacy falls closer to the latter in terms the amount of self-control required.

 

[RileyG]

How are we defining normal?

The Catholic Church is an outlier in regards to not allowing their clergy to get married.

When dealing with something that's biologically hardwired into our species, going against that is going to lead to some impulse control issues absent some sort of outlet.

Thomas Aquinas had a rather interesting take on that (if you're familiar with his stance on prostitution)

While he viewed it as an infraction, he suggested it should remain legal due to the fact that if people don't have a "lesser of two evils" outlet to satisfy certain biological urges, a certain number of people resort to much more heinous ways of satisfying those urges. (sound familiar?)

His words were: "If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust. If these social practices were to be suppressed, the public reaction might be to threaten the peace of society."


Another historical theologian (and the name escapes me right now) used a statement to describe the celibacy rule to the effect of (paraphrasing):

If you take a group of seemingly ethical people, and locked them in a room for 9 days, and on day 10, place a piece of bread in the room, you'll witness many of them behaving very unethically.


I took that to mean, when you're dealing with baked-in biological urges (which exist on a different level in terms of the amount of self control one needs to suppress)


On the spectrum of
"I really want that new video game, but I should really save some money so I'll hold off" <---> "I haven't eaten in a week, I have no money, and there's a bag of chips sitting there in the store and the clerk's not looking"

Forcing someone into a lifetime of celibacy falls closer to the latter in terms the amount of self-control required.

How do you define normal?

Societal perhaps? What is expected?

Yes, people have urges. They come and go. However, people can choose not to act on them.

Just to be clear, the requirement of celibacy for clergy is a discipline. It can be changed.

(Also, there is a small number of married priests, both western and eastern Catholic, because it’s normal for eastern Catholics to be married)

Also, they aren’t “forced.” They CHOSE to become priests, so they knew had to take a vow of celibacy.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

How do you define normal?

Societal perhaps? What is expected?

Yes, people have urges. They come and go. However, people can choose not to act on them.

Just to be clear, the requirement of celibacy for clergy is a discipline. It can be changed.

(Also, there is a small number of married priests, both western and eastern Catholic, because it’s normal for eastern Catholics to be married)

Also, they aren’t “forced.” They CHOSE to become priests, so they knew had to take a vow of celibacy.

But, in a way, it's an indirect "forced" after they've been a priest for a long enough time.

Just like any other profession, if your entire survival depends on staying within that profession, you are kind of stuck with it.


If I decided for some ideological reason tomorrow, I could no longer be in the IT field.

Me being in my 40's, and having done this for two decades, and my experience in this area is the only reason I have the salary I do, and wouldn't be able get the same amount of money doing anything else. In a way, I'm stuck with it.

And priests are even more "stuck"...as many have taken a vow of poverty, or in some instances, were allowed to be able to make a small salary and have their housing provided for them. What are they gonna do, walk away from it at age 45 with no assets and no prospects?

 

[RileyG]

But, in a way, it's an indirect "forced" after they've been a priest for a long enough time.

Just like any other profession, if your entire survival depends on staying within that profession, you are kind of stuck with it.


If I decided for some ideological reason tomorrow, I could no longer be in the IT field.

Me being in my 40's, and having done this for two decades, and my experience in this area is the only reason I have the salary I do, and wouldn't be able get the same amount of money doing anything else. In a way, I'm stuck with it.

And priests are even more "stuck"...as many have taken a vow of poverty, or in some instances, were allowed to be able to make a small salary and have their housing provided for them. What are they gonna do, walk away from it at age 45 with no assets and no prospects?

That’s a decision they made.

Again very few people are errr….”called” to celibacy.

 

[bèlla]

That’s a decision they made.

Again very few people are errr….”called” to celibacy.

Now consider that in light of present times in a culture laden with sex. Laymen are struggling and they aren’t sharing space with another. It’s increasingly difficult for many to exercise restraint without seeking relief through the p-word or other pursuits. You can’t believe they’ve never watched the other as well.

Sometimes policies have to be reviewed and amended. You might attract more to the clergy if you permitted marriage. A priest is still a man and I spent a lot of time with them. They drink, smoke and everything else.

~bella

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That’s a decision they made.

Again very few people are errr….”called” to celibacy.

It's a decision they made (technically), but given that a person is in their 20's when they start down that path (and depending on a person's family, especially if they're Irish or Polish, there's a lot of familial pressure on ensuring that at least 1 of the children ends up a priest or a nun)

It's not exactly an "uncoerced choice" in many cases.

Not to mention, there's a lot of people in their 20's who think "nah, I don't ever want a family", and things change 5-10 years down the road.


And there's some rather interesting survey data to back that up.
A 2020 CARA (Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate) study found that about 19–22% of U.S. Catholic priests have seriously considered leaving the priesthood at some point in their careers.
(with loneliness and celibacy being the top two cited reasons)


Are you familiar with the stories of these guys:

Alberto Cutié - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

James Carroll (author) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Donald Cozzens - Wikipedia (I'm more familiar with this one being a NE Ohio resident)

The "leaving the priesthood" BBC documentary from a few years back was an interesting one as well.

With one priest saying: You wake up one day at 50 years old and realize you’ve given everything to something, and if you leave, you have nothing and you have nowhere to go.


It's very different from other jobs in that regard.

For most people, if you spend 20 years at ABC Corp, and something happens that you seriously disagree with, you have the resume and qualifications to go apply the same trade over at XYZ Inc,.

That's not how it is for those guys... If Catholicism is your life for 20+ years, but now you realize that you're depressed because you want to get married and have a family, it's not like there's another Catholic Church across town that will let you do that while holding the same position.

If you're lucky like Father Alberto, you can find another role in a different denomination that has some overlap.

The harsh reality can be summed up by the study they did in Ireland:
It found that up to 23% of ex-priests experienced housing instability after leaving the clergy, and over 40% struggled economically.

Granted, Ireland's results may not be representative of the US given that the Irish Catholics take their Catholicism very seriously (speaking as someone who had a lot of them on my dad's side of the family)...but those are still some daunting prospects.


"If I leave this now in my 50's, there's a 1/4 chance I'll be homeless, and a 50/50 shot I'll struggle to get by" has to be making those guys feel trapped.


Disclaimer, this next part I leveraged ChatGPT for, but they sourced all of it:

If you'll notice, the younger priests were more supportive of keeping he celibacy rules, while the older priests were more in favor of changing.

Perhaps those guys in their 40's and 50's know (and have experienced) some things the priests in their 20's and 30's aren't grasping quite yet.

 

[RileyG]

It's a decision they made (technically), but given that a person is in their 20's when they start down that path (and depending on a person's family, especially if they're Irish or Polish, there's a lot of familial pressure on ensuring that at least 1 of the children ends up a priest or a nun)

It's not exactly an "uncoerced choice" in many cases.

Not to mention, there's a lot of people in their 20's who think "nah, I don't ever want a family", and things change 5-10 years down the road.


And there's some rather interesting survey data to back that up.
A 2020 CARA (Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate) study found that about 19–22% of U.S. Catholic priests have seriously considered leaving the priesthood at some point in their careers.
(with loneliness and celibacy being the top two cited reasons)


Are you familiar with the stories of these guys:

Alberto Cutié - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

James Carroll (author) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Donald Cozzens - Wikipedia (I'm more familiar with this one being a NE Ohio resident)

The "leaving the priesthood" BBC documentary from a few years back was an interesting one as well.

With one priest saying: You wake up one day at 50 years old and realize you’ve given everything to something, and if you leave, you have nothing and you have nowhere to go.


It's very different from other jobs in that regard.

For most people, if you spend 20 years at ABC Corp, and something happens that you seriously disagree with, you have the resume and qualifications to go apply the same trade over at XYZ Inc,.

That's not how it is for those guys... If Catholicism is your life for 20+ years, but now you realize that you're depressed because you want to get married and have a family, it's not like there's another Catholic Church across town that will let you do that while holding the same position.

If you're lucky like Father Alberto, you can find another role in a different denomination that has some overlap.

The harsh reality can be summed up by the study they did in Ireland:
It found that up to 23% of ex-priests experienced housing instability after leaving the clergy, and over 40% struggled economically.

Granted, Ireland's results may not be representative of the US given that the Irish Catholics take their Catholicism very seriously (speaking as someone who had a lot of them on my dad's side of the family)...but those are still some daunting prospects.


"If I leave this now in my 50's, there's a 1/4 chance I'll be homeless, and a 50/50 shot I'll struggle to get by" has to be making those guys feel trapped.


Disclaimer, this next part I leveraged ChatGPT for, but they sourced all of it:
View attachment 366071

If you'll notice, the younger priests were more supportive of keeping he celibacy rules, while the older priests were more in favor of changing.

Perhaps those guys in their 40's and 50's know (and have experienced) some things the priests in their 20's and 30's aren't grasping quite yet.

Yes, I’m aware of Father Cutie.

I will also add more younger priests are becoming more traditional, and some older priests have less than traditional views. BUT YOU ARE RIGHT with life, there comes experience, that is spot on!

 

[RileyG]

Now consider that in light of present times in a culture laden with sex. Laymen are struggling and they aren’t sharing space with another. It’s increasingly difficult for many to exercise restraint without seeking relief through the p-word or other pursuits. You can’t believe they’ve never watched the other as well.

Sometimes policies have to be reviewed and amended. You might attract more to the clergy if you permitted marriage. A priest is still a man and I spent a lot of time with them. They drink, smoke and everything else.

~bella

I think it’s a calling, it’s not for everyone.

I don’t think if marriage was available for priest, there would necessarily be much increase. Many Protestant denominations who have married (and even female) clergy are also struggling to find new pastors to be ordained, especially in many mainline Protestant Churches.

Our culture overall has become more secular.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Yes, I’m aware of Father Cutie.

I will also add more younger priests are becoming more traditional, and some older priests have less than traditional views. BUT YOU ARE RIGHT with life, there comes experience, that is spot on!

I've heard that they're becoming more traditional on certain matters of doctrine.

But the issue is, there's no doctrine (or verse in the bible) that prohibits members of the clergy from getting married. In fact, there are some verses that suggest the opposite. (saying that the ideal member of the clergy is one that has a track record of being faithful to his wife)

The celibacy rule for clergy didn't come about until 1100 AD (when the forbid priests from marrying, and invalidated/revoked marriages for priests who were already married)

So despite the fact that some younger priests may be getting a little more traditional in some regards...

Saying "I know for sure I don't need to have a spouse and/or family to be fulfilled, so this life will be one I can live with" at age 25 is what it is... an opinion that's prone to change for a lot of people down the road.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Circular logic

Only men can be ordained, and they should be heterosexual.

Why would that matter? They're not allowed to have sex or romantic partners.

 

[bèlla]

I don’t think if marriage was available for priest, there would necessarily be much increase. Many Protestant denominations who have married (and even female) clergy are also struggling to find new pastors to be ordained, especially in many mainline Protestant Churches.

Our culture overall has become more secular.

That’s true but the process is harder for catholicism. There was an article I read about women becoming nuns later in life after they raised their children. But it’s very involved and I heard firsthand accounts at a monastic weekend. That’s why some opt to be oblates instead. One of the monks in the cloister was a former physician and they almost didn’t accept her because of that. She had to prove herself.

I think the future for the church is on the internet. People are increasingly comfortable with streaming services and you can reach a wider audience and earn money while doing so at less expense. That may sound bad at first glance but buildings don’t pay for themselves. Televised services were initially designed for the sick and shut in and we’ve come full circle.

~bella

 

[RileyG]

That’s true but the process is harder for catholicism. There was an article I read about women becoming nuns later in life after they raised their children. But it’s very involved and I heard firsthand accounts at a monastic weekend. That’s why some opt to be oblates instead. One of the monks in the cloister was a former physician and they almost didn’t accept her because of that. She had to prove herself.

I think the future for the church is on the internet. People are increasingly comfortable with streaming services and you can reach a wider audience and earn money while doing so at less expense. That may sound bad at first glance but buildings don’t pay for themselves. Televised services were initially designed for the sick and shut in and we’ve come full circle.

~bella

Yes, there are older vocations, but many middle age people find it very difficult to adjust to monastic life. Many religious orders are now on the brink of extinction.

I don’t think that’s a good idea, in my opinion. I very much NEED in person worship, and the Sacraments, especially Holy Communion.

Peace

 

[RileyG]

I've heard that they're becoming more traditional on certain matters of doctrine.

But the issue is, there's no doctrine (or verse in the bible) that prohibits members of the clergy from getting married. In fact, there are some verses that suggest the opposite. (saying that the ideal member of the clergy is one that has a track record of being faithful to his wife)

The celibacy rule for clergy didn't come about until 1100 AD (when the forbid priests from marrying, and invalidated/revoked marriages for priests who were already married)

So despite the fact that some younger priests may be getting a little more traditional in some regards...

Saying "I know for sure I don't need to have a spouse and/or family to be fulfilled, so this life will be one I can live with" at age 25 is what it is... an opinion that's prone to change for a lot of people down the road.

Yes, it had a lot to do with nepotism in the Western Church, which is why clerical celibacy became mandatory. It is subject to change, but I doubt it will.

 

[RileyG]

Why would that matter? They're not allowed to have sex or romantic partners.

….because of the large amount of homosexual clergy who were preying on teen boys and young men. Most of the abuse victims were/are male.