Trump Bars Entry from 12 Countries

[rjs330]

Whats important about what town or state thats located in?

What's important about the average American being able to find Tenen on a map in regard to this ban? I bet the average American couldn't quickly find Afghanistan on a map either. And they were involved in 911.

 

[rjs330]

I dont like the fact that Egypt is not on this list since it was an Egyptian that attacked Americans.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

....not sure what this has to do with anything.

Because people are acting like it's this "radical move" (and I'm presuming they're reading some motives of "bigotry" into the situation as well)

When in fact, most of the international community has acknowledged implicitly (via their very complicated/prohibitive visa requirements) that people from certain nations present an elevated security risk due to the prevailing ideologies in the respective regions.


A travel ban
vs.
An intentionally complicated/prohibitive restriction framework that prevents 99% of the people from coming

Is, in effect, trying to accomplish the same thing.

One sounds a little less harsh on paper...

But, if you're the average Yemeni citizen (limited income, limited access to tech and transportation)
"Expensive application fee" (by Yemeni standards) + "you have to track down a Canadian-approved place to do the biometric stuff two months in advance" + "Travel 700 miles to the Canadian embassy in Riyadh to go for additional screening and get security clearance" + "Proof of financial ability to cover your trip back home" + "Letter from an approved Canadian tourism agency"

vs.

"Yeah, you're not coming"

...not a huge practical difference there.

 

[durangodawood]

What's important about the average American being able to find Tenen on a map in regard to this ban?.....

Well, I hope its not important. Can you show me where it is?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Whats important about what town or state thats located in?

Nothing really, other than that's the particular location of the source that's emanating the bad ideas...

My point was the critique of "the Americans who support the travel ban probably couldn't find those countries on a map" was irrelevant as knowing that a place exists, and knowing that it's a source of bad (and sometimes dangerous) ideas doesn't require one to win a round of geography trivia.

 

[wing2000]

Because people are acting like it's this "radical move" (and I'm presuming they're reading some motives of "bigotry" into the situation as well)

What "people" are you referring to? In this thread or some other people in your life?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

What "people" are you referring to? In this thread or some other people in your life?

Per HuffPost:

MSN

House Democrats condemned President Donald Trump’s expansive new travel ban on Wednesday, calling it “discriminatory,”“dangerous” and “cruel, racist, and un-American.”

Trump signed the ban — which bars people from 12 countries from traveling to the U.S. — on Wednesday evening, reviving a contentious policy from his first term that was widely criticized for being xenophobic and Islamophobic.

 

[wing2000]

Per HuffPost:

MSN

House Democrats condemned President Donald Trump’s expansive new travel ban on Wednesday, calling it “discriminatory,”“dangerous” and “cruel, racist, and un-American.”

Trump signed the ban — which bars people from 12 countries from traveling to the U.S. — on Wednesday evening, reviving a contentious policy from his first term that was widely criticized for being xenophobic and Islamophobic.

Thank you.

 

[durangodawood]

Nothing really, other than that's the particular location of the source that's emanating the bad ideas...

My point was the critique of "the Americans who support the travel ban probably couldn't find those countries on a map" was irrelevant as knowing that a place exists, and knowing that it's a source of bad (and sometimes dangerous) ideas doesn't require one to win a round of geography trivia.

Its quite relevant. The relationship of the west to those places doenst make any sense without some geographical perspective.

But yeah if youre not concerned with having an understanding, then who cares.

 

[wing2000]

I am not sure why Afghanistan is on the list.

There are still many Afghans in country who assisted the US for two decades, many of whom were in the process of coming to the United States...until now. And those already here, are being deported by the Trump Administration.

But hey, I guess they should have known better than to trust the United States goverment to do the right thing....

Afghans who helped America during the war plead for travel ban exemption

Afghans who worked for the U.S. during its war against the Taliban urged Trump to exempt them from a travel ban that could lead to them being deported

www.wbaltv.com

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Its quite relevant. The relationship of the west to those places doenst make any sense without some geographical perspective.

But yeah if youre not concerned with having an understanding, then who cares.

You'll have to expound on that a bit.

Unless you're suggesting that "unless you're enough of a geography buff to know where those countries are on the map, then any concerns you have about those countries are invalid"?

One can know facts about a place without being able to rattle off the latitude/longitude.


Gun to my head, if I had a paper map in front of me, it'd probably take me a few to spot Compton, California on the map (I know it's somewhere south of LA)... that wouldn't negate any of my fact-based concerns about the violent crime and gang activity in that particular area.

 

[durangodawood]

You'll have to expound on that a bit.

Unless you're suggesting that "unless you're enough of a geography buff to know where those countries are on the map, then any concerns you have about those countries are invalid"?

One can know facts about a place without being able to rattle off the latitude/longitude.....

No one needs to know coordinates. Just place it on a map in relation to other countries we're involved in.

Its not just about who's bringing the "bad ideas". You mention Yemen for instance. Americans should have already known where that is before this travel ban list. I mean, we have navy off their coast in basically an intermittent war. None of it makes any sense at all if Yemen could just be anywhere.

 

[BCP1928]

It's interesting to look at the list in detail. There are security concerns for some of these countries, of course. But I just scanned through it and it appears that most of the concern was about illegal immigration form these countries. See what you think:

Restricting The Entry of Foreign Nationals to Protect the United States from Foreign Terrorists and Other National Security and Public Safety Threats

BY THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA A PROCLAMATION During my first Administration, I restricted the entry of foreign nationals into the

www.whitehouse.gov

 

[bèlla]

Nobody should feel safe, to go to America . Even people, that are from Canada and Other countries, that aren't on the list. Are being treated badly, when they go to America. American business/ people are/ will suffer big time. Trump is the biggest threat to America, than any country.

You’re more likely to be at risk from fellow citizens because of his policies than Trump himself. And corporations aren‘t suffering. Small businesses will take the hit as intended.

~bella

 

[ThatRobGuy]

No one needs to know coordinates. Just place it on a map in relation to other countries we're involved in.

Its not just about who's bringing the "bad ideas". You mention Yemen for instance. Americans should have already known where that is before this travel ban list. I mean, we have navy off their coast in basically an intermittent war. None of it makes any sense at all if Yemen could just be anywhere.

By "involved in", I take it you're referring to the fact that we'll "do business" with some of the countries in that region and not others?

With regards to "where the US navy has a presence near another country's shore", that's a third of the countries on the planet. (it's the most prominent maritime force)


...but perhaps I'm still missing the point you're trying to make.

For example, how would it change things if Yemen (all other things being the same) was in Eastern Europe instead of where it's at now?

 

[durangodawood]

For example, how would it change things if Yemen (all other things being the same) was in Eastern Europe instead of where it's at now?

In what alternative universe does part of an Eastern European Yemen gather Iranian support to launch missiles in an attempt to attack and blockade Israel? How would that Yemen develop its antipathy to Israel? How would that Yemen - or part of it - become part of an anti Israel nexus so apparently potent that we have to seal it off from us for fears of anti semitic terrorism? It makes zero sense as a floating geographic "wherever".

But yeah if just accepting what youre told without making sense of the world is ones m/o, then ok, it doesn't matter.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

In what alternative universe does part of an Eastern European Yemen gather Iranian support to launch missiles in an attempt to attack and blockade Israel? How would that Yemen develop its antipathy to Israel? How would that Yemen - or part of it - become part of an anti Israel nexus so apparently potent that we have to seal it off from us for fears of anti semitic terrorism? It makes zero sense as a floating geographic "wherever".

If they exhibited the same levels of antisemitic sentiments, then the location wouldn't matter.

It's my understanding that one of the justifications for "who makes the list and who doesn't" with regards to the most recent travel ban was based on heavily contingent on vetting and data sharing.

For instance, the nation of Chad (on the blocked list) certainly isn't in range of being able to launch missiles into Israel, I doubt they even have the capability, and geographically, they're further away from Israel than Belarus and Romania.

The concerns regarding Chad are due to the fact that their government doesn't have detailed data to share and have Boko Haram "puppet cells" that are sympathetic to ISIS. (and they have a Visa overstay rate that's in the top 5... over 33% from what I'm reading)


The location (proximity to Israel wise) doesn't really matter if there's a high percentage of people "sympathetic to the cause"


Fast Air travel has brought a lot of things close to home and made distance less important.

A Boko Haram member (who doesn't show up on a criminal background check, because their nations data capabilities are limited) coming to the US under instructions of "one our associates will meet you and provide you with what you need" is a very real possibility.

 

[durangodawood]

If they exhibited the same levels of antisemitic sentiments, then the location wouldn't matter.

It's my understanding that one of the justifications for "who makes the list and who doesn't" with regards to the most recent travel ban was based on heavily contingent on vetting and data sharing.

For instance, the nation of Chad (on the blocked list) certainly isn't in range of being able to launch missiles into Israel, I doubt they even have the capability, and geographically, they're further away from Israel than Belarus and Romania.

The concerns regarding Chad are due to the fact that their government doesn't have detailed data to share and have Boko Haram "puppet cells" that are sympathetic to ISIS. (and they have a Visa overstay rate that's in the top 5... over 33% from what I'm reading)


The location (proximity to Israel wise) doesn't really matter if there's a high percentage of people "sympathetic to the cause"


Fast Air travel has brought a lot of things close to home and made distance less important.

A Boko Haram member (who doesn't show up on a criminal background check, because their nations data capabilities are limited) coming to the US under instructions of "one our associates will meet you and provide you with what you need" is a very real possibility.

Why should culture matter either? If just accepting what youre told about who thinks the bad thoughts without making sense of the world is ones m/o, then knowing anything about culture doesn't matter.

Geography is important for making sense of the world. It explains a lot about who wants what and why, who fights who, etc. Americans are pretty bad about all of this. Lets not defend this level of ignorance.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Why should culture matter either? If just accepting what youre told about who thinks the bad thoughts without making sense of the world is ones m/o, then knowing anything about culture doesn't matter.

Geography is important for making sense of the world. It explains a lot about who wants what and why, who fights who, etc. Americans are pretty bad about all of this. Lets not defend this level of ignorance.

We'll have to disagree on that one...I think culture (especially religious/social/ancestral culture) forms a tighter bond than geography.

Not saying that's necessarily pragmatic or advantageous in all cases, but none the less...


Australia is only 2000 miles from Indonesia, and almost 11,000 miles from Great Britain.

Who do you think Australia has more commonality and shared interests with?

 

[durangodawood]

We'll have to disagree on that one...I think culture (especially religious/social/ancestral culture) forms a tighter bond than geography.

Not saying that's necessarily pragmatic or advantageous in all cases, but none the less...


Australia is only 2000 miles from Indonesia, and almost 11,000 miles from Great Britain.

Who do you think Australia has more commonality and shared interests with?

Culture, geography..... you dont have to pick just one, you know.

My point where these places matters for a proper understanding of events.