I believe that ALL who ever lived will be in God’s Kingdom

[Jeff Saunders]

And I th

They will hate Jesus until God grants them the ability to repent and the ability to follow the Son. 1 Corinthians

A robotic type of "love" is not a Godly type Love, which is how God Loves us.
There are things which are impossible to do, like God cannot create another Christ since Christ is not a created being. This is similar to the impossibility of making a being which can of its own autonomous free will choose to humbly accept God's charity/Love as charity. If God programs the person to "love" Him, it is not of their own free will, they are Loving Him, so it is not Godly type Love, but a robotic type love.

I will challenge that idea with this, God created gold fish, a golf fish is created to be in fresh water, ( this is only a word picture not scientifically correct ) but if that gold fish was given the choice between on which bowl it would choose, it would choose to live in fresh water over salt water, or sand, or a bowl full of broken glass. Goldfish were create by God to be the best they can be in fresh water, that's when they are truly as they were created to be.
If God can do that with a gold fish why do you think he can not do it with the crown jewel of his creation? We were created to be in and to have fellowship and love within our creator, we are not some science project for God to see the outcome, we were created for a purpose, and that is to love God and be in fellowship with him, that is when and only when we are fully human, anything else and we are lesser.
Because free will love is the highest form of love God created us in such a way that we could choose to reject his plan and do our own thing, he could have created us to autonomously love him, but that was not his purpose or plan.
Do you not think that God could not figure out a plan that would give man free will, and still have all his humanity to choose to love him because that's what we were created to do.
Scripture clearly lays out this plan, 1 Pet 1:19-20/ Rev 13:8 talk about Jesus being crucified before the foundation of the earth was formed, Eph 1:4 " for he chose us before the creation of the world" . So before Adam fell God had a plan, Is 14:24 " Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned, it will happen."
For the last about 6000 years man has lived on this planet and we have lived with the ability to do our own thing and not follow God, and look at what we have a messed up world with death,pain agony and heartbreak, yes there is love and joy also but for the most part things have not been good for most of humanity.
I believe that this plan is the best plan for God to get exactly what he wanted, I can see God in the midst of all humanity at the end, saying ok you did it your way, first you had one rule don not eat from a certain tree you failed, then I gave 10 things for you to do, you failed again, I came down myself became human, took all your sins into myself and you placed my spirit and myself in all ( Acts 2:17) and you failed, next I came and ruled for 1000 years on earth in the temple in Jerusalem and you still rebelled.
Now do you want to do it my way or go back to death and pain and suffering.
All of creation will choose God out of free will, we are like the gold fish, we long for love and life and that only comes from God.
God being a very wise creator knew we would choose him, he made us to do it, and in the end scripture tells us three times :every knee will bow and every tongue will confess" Then New Heaven and New Earth and sin and death are no more, behold all things will be new the old is gone , all things will be new.
Jer 32:27 I am Yahweh, God of all flesh, is anything too difficult for me? It seems that you believe that there are things to difficult for God.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

In the prior age, he created paradise, the angels, etc and everyone sang and jumped for joy. And then Satan and his angels rebelled. And then God created this age, humans, etc. Satan plays a major part in this. He did at the beginning and he will at the end. God's even going to give Satan chances once again to deceive now the human race. Why do you think that is if all God wants to do is program someone to love him? Why is Satan getting this chance? That's really food for thought on other topics that one needs to really dive in instead of staying in place with just this one.

Also if God wanted to program people to love him common sense alone tells us we wouldn't even be here at this moment. We would be with him right now. But no, he's long suffering wanting everyone to come to repentance.

Satan was created exactly for the role he is playing, God knew exactly what satan would do, and is using satan to accomplish his goal and plan , 1Tim 2:3-6/ 2 Pet 3:9 this is Gods plan, he is using satan to get us to wake up to who we are and why we were created, and that is to worship him out of free will love. We are not truly human until we are reconciled with our creator, then and only then will we be who and what we were created for.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Satan was created exactly for the role he is playing, God knew exactly what satan would do, and is using satan to accomplish his goal and plan , 1Tim 2:3-6/ 2 Pet 3:9 this is Gods plan, he is using satan to get us to wake up to who we are and why we were created, and that is to worship him out of free will love. We are not truly human until we are reconciled with our creator, then and only then will we be who and what we were created for.

God is Holy and all whoi get saved must accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior reject Him, and Hell will be your final destination

 

[Jeff Saunders]

God is Holy and all whoi get saved must accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior reject Him, and Hell will be your final destination

Ok, what is your point?

 

[timothyu]

Satan was created exactly for the role he is playing

The Hebrew people called it the Tempter.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I looked it up and pantas is used in both parts of 18, and polloi is used for both parts in 19, so in both verses the first group is the same as the last group. Otherwise in vs 19 you would have some sinners and some not , if you mean by many not all.

Ok that’s a good point so what about Matthew 10:28?

“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If both body and soul is destroyed in the lake of fire how will these people be saved?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Very few "Greek" words have an exact English equivalent. I gave you one example and not a lengthy study of the verse in question.
Yes! God does want a close fellowship with man, but the problem is not with God, but with man. Man was made "very good" by God's standard of "very good", but that is not "perfect" like Christ a not made being is "perfect". "Very good" might mean as good as a made being could be made, but that also means this made being lacks something. The one thing God could not program into a human, is what we spend time here on earth trying to obtain and grow. You need to understand our earthly objective, since that we also tell you why those unwilling to obtain the objective would not be happy in heaven.

God made man very good, in the Hebrew its exceedingly good or excellent, how is that different than perfection, considering that was before sin entered the world?
So what do you think our earthly objective is?
I see our earthly objective, this side of the cross, as are you going to die to self, pick up your cross daily,surrender your soul to Jesus and we will according to Jesus, be one with him, to rule and reign with. Matt10:33 if you deny me before men, I will deny you to the Father. We get our inheritance which is to be part of the kingdome.
If we blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which according to Acts 3 is in all flesh, we live for self and our own kingdom we have built, we go to the LOF, there all that is not of God, will according to Matt25:46 , be aionios kolasis , the pruning or cutting away of all that does not bring about fruit, and after all sin is exposed and people see God for who he is and experience his love (wrath) , they will as we are told 3 times in scripture "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess" . They will have forfeited their inheritance, and will be a subject of that Kingdom. then as in 1 Cor 15:28 God will be all in all.
The idea that any human would not be " happy in heaven " is like saying a gold fish would not be happy in fresh water, totally absurd.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Ok that’s a good point so what about Matthew 10:28?

“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If both body and soul is destroyed in the lake of fire how will these people be saved?

Its not our body or our soul that is saved, its us, we are spirit beings having a temporary time in a mortal body and our soul is what we have made in this life, what have we done, did we build our own kingdom or did we die to self and build Gods kingdom. Thats why scripture says every man must pass through the fire ( Gods love) , if wood hay or stubble it will be burned up, death of the soul all is lost, the second death. If gold ,silver or costly stones , you keep all you have built and lose nothing we go from this life to the next seamlessly.
If you have followed Jesus our body dies, unless you are here for second coming, but we get a new body.
If you live for self you lose your body and all that you have made, your soul, after reconciliation you get a new body but its like starting over at the beginning you lose everything.

 

[trophy33]

Ok that’s a good point so what about Matthew 10:28?

“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If both body and soul is destroyed in the lake of fire how will these people be saved?

If we want to be precise, the verse does not say "and God will destroy both soul and body in gehenna", it says "fear Him who is able to".

 

[Jeff Saunders]

God did not give us "reconciliation" directly, but the "message of reconciliation", so what do people do with this "message"?

Read the first part of the verse,"in Christ God WAS reconciling the cosmos to himself", God did it, but we are still going through the working out of the process. like Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the cosmos, it didn't take place till about 32 AD. Reconciliation is still in process but to God, who is outside of time it is finished.
Its a done deal, I know most still believe the lie of satan that God can't and won't grt it done, but he will and already has, but we are still in process.

 

[bling]

And I th



I will challenge that idea with this, God created gold fish, a golf fish is created to be in fresh water, ( this is only a word picture not scientifically correct ) but if that gold fish was given the choice between on which bowl it would choose, it would choose to live in fresh water over salt water, or sand, or a bowl full of broken glass. Goldfish were create by God to be the best they can be in fresh water, that's when they are truly as they were created to be.
If God can do that with a gold fish why do you think he can not do it with the crown jewel of his creation? We were created to be in and to have fellowship and love within our creator, we are not some science project for God to see the outcome, we were created for a purpose, and that is to love God and be in fellowship with him, that is when and only when we are fully human, anything else and we are lesser.
Because free will love is the highest form of love God created us in such a way that we could choose to reject his plan and do our own thing, he could have created us to autonomously love him, but that was not his purpose or plan.
Do you not think that God could not figure out a plan that would give man free will, and still have all his humanity to choose to love him because that's what we were created to do.
Scripture clearly lays out this plan, 1 Pet 1:19-20/ Rev 13:8 talk about Jesus being crucified before the foundation of the earth was formed, Eph 1:4 " for he chose us before the creation of the world" . So before Adam fell God had a plan, Is 14:24 " Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned, it will happen."
For the last about 6000 years man has lived on this planet and we have lived with the ability to do our own thing and not follow God, and look at what we have a messed up world with death,pain agony and heartbreak, yes there is love and joy also but for the most part things have not been good for most of humanity.
I believe that this plan is the best plan for God to get exactly what he wanted, I can see God in the midst of all humanity at the end, saying ok you did it your way, first you had one rule don not eat from a certain tree you failed, then I gave 10 things for you to do, you failed again, I came down myself became human, took all your sins into myself and you placed my spirit and myself in all ( Acts 2:17) and you failed, next I came and ruled for 1000 years on earth in the temple in Jerusalem and you still rebelled.
Now do you want to do it my way or go back to death and pain and suffering.
All of creation will choose God out of free will, we are like the gold fish, we long for love and life and that only comes from God.
God being a very wise creator knew we would choose him, he made us to do it, and in the end scripture tells us three times :every knee will bow and every tongue will confess" Then New Heaven and New Earth and sin and death are no more, behold all things will be new the old is gone , all things will be new.
Jer 32:27 I am Yahweh, God of all flesh, is anything too difficult for me? It seems that you believe that there are things to difficult for God.

First off:

It is extremely questionable if: “Fish have free will” at all. The only free will beings on earth might be humans, since they are the only earthly beings needing free will to accept God’s Love and thus Love like God Loves.

We agree on: “we were created for a purpose, and that is to love God and be in fellowship with him”, but might not agree on what “Godly type Love” and “purpose” are.

Do you see us as having an earthly objective.

Everything is driven by the objective and the objective is not to just live forever in heaven nor just not to sin, yet eternal life is one of the results of our fulfilling our earthly objective.

Has God given man a mission statement? (this is always good to have)

You can take any command in scripture and have Biblical support for calling that command “Man’s Objective” since Biblical said do it, but there are two overriding commands all other commands are bases on and subordinated to.

Would “Loving God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy” be our Mission statement given as two commands?

This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4), so what is that?

Is God this ultimate Lover? Would that “Love” compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measurement for pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all, but is totally for the sake of others [which would also be God’s sake])?

So, if God is not doing anything for His own sake and everything for the sake of others, would He be expecting or needing anything from man or would God just be trying to give the greatest gifts He could give to man?

Are there something God just cannot do: like make another Christ, since Christ was never made but always existed?

Could God place this Godly type Love in a person at his/her creation (an instinctive love) or would an instinctive love be like a robotic love and not like God’s Love?

Could God just force His Love on man against the “will” of man or would that be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun?

What does man need that he does not have instinctively in order for man to fulfill His Mission?

Man must have a very limited amount of autonomous free will to make at least the one choice to humbly accept or reject God’s Love (forgiveness/mercy/grace/charity).

Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity, this will enable us to fulfill our mission.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….Luke 7) God hates sin, but does allow it, so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is always our fulfilling our objective.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By a free willing acceptance of God’s forgiveness, we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much (a Godly type Love, automatically given) since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Luke 7: 36-50.

This world is “very good”, but not “perfect” like heaven is perfect and does not have the same purpose as heaven. This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.

Death is not “bad” in and of itself for now, but the way good people go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

It is truly tragic and unfortunate that Christ had to be tortured, humiliated and murdered in order to help willing humans in their fulfilling of their objective, but God is willing to make huge sacrifices to help willing individuals. It is also very sad other humans who had the opportunity to fulfill their primary earthly objective continued to refuse God’s charity to the point they would never of their own free will accepted God’s charity. These refusers of God Loved are still Loved but will go to their death and destruction as a help to some other humans who have not refused God’s help to the point of never accepting His help.

The problem being humans (due in part to the needed survival instinct) do not like accepting Charity from a Giver that paid a huge price for the gift.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Luke 7: 36-50.

Once we accept Godly type Love, we can truly Love, grow that Love and have the privilege and honor of Loving God (the forgiver) and others (God’s children) with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

 

[bling]

God made man very good, in the Hebrew its exceedingly good or excellent, how is that different than perfection, considering that was before sin entered the world?
So what do you think our earthly objective is?
I see our earthly objective, this side of the cross, as are you going to die to self, pick up your cross daily,surrender your soul to Jesus and we will according to Jesus, be one with him, to rule and reign with. Matt10:33 if you deny me before men, I will deny you to the Father. We get our inheritance which is to be part of the kingdome.
If we blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which according to Acts 3 is in all flesh, we live for self and our own kingdom we have built, we go to the LOF, there all that is not of God, will according to Matt25:46 , be aionios kolasis , the pruning or cutting away of all that does not bring about fruit, and after all sin is exposed and people see God for who he is and experience his love (wrath) , they will as we are told 3 times in scripture "every knee will bow and every tongue will confess" . They will have forfeited their inheritance, and will be a subject of that Kingdom. then as in 1 Cor 15:28 God will be all in all.
The idea that any human would not be " happy in heaven " is like saying a gold fish would not be happy in fresh water, totally absurd.

Look above on my post 431.
If you have rejected God's Love repeatedly while here on earth to the point God knows you would never accept His Love given a choice, you would not be happy in heaven where there is no fleshly type love and oly Godly type Love.

 

[bling]

Read the first part of the verse,"in Christ God WAS reconciling the cosmos to himself", God did it, but we are still going through the working out of the process. like Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the cosmos, it didn't take place till about 32 AD. Reconciliation is still in process but to God, who is outside of time it is finished.
Its a done deal, I know most still believe the lie of satan that God can't and won't grt it done, but he will and already has, but we are still in process.

Read also 2 Cor. 15:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

These verses are not showing the reconciliation of all humans, but we are to go out with that message for people to choose to be reconciled.

 

[JulieB67]

Satan was created exactly for the role he is playing,

No, he wasn't. He was perfect in his ways from the day he was created till iniquity was found in him. And we know that was pride.

and is using satan to accomplish his goal

What goal if you believe that all God has to do is throw someone into the LOF? Why is God using Satan to deceive the nations in the end?

e. We are not truly human until we are reconciled with our creator

We will not be human (thank goodness!) once we are reconciled with our creator in the end so what's your point in this?

new body but its like starting over at the beginning you lose everything.

Verse from Revelation stating as such? And what are they losing and what's left? According to scripture there will be neither root or branch, just ashes. Symbolizing the end imo.
And since when does Second Death mean a new body? Are we not to believe Christ's teachings on this subject or man? The point is we are to fear the one that can destroy (fully) both body and soul in hell. But if we go by your belief, what's there to fear if God won't be able to do that? He doesn't want to that's why he's so long suffering -wanting everyone to come to repentance. But come Judgement Day it will be too late. God wants to know who truly has that change of heart, who truly loves him. He wants our love.

And you missed my earlier point which was if God wanted to created the perfect being who loved him, why are we here? We've seen him create certain beings for certain purposes -like the 4 beasts that surround the throne. So again why are we here?

And you've yet to provide any verse that states the LOF is a refinery. All the verses like this only are not about everyone-


Zechariah 13:8 "And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein."

Zechariah 13:9 "And I will bring a third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God."

This verse is not about the LOF but you have used it as such. And it's apparent it's about God refining in someone's lifetime. That's what the Holy Spirit does.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Thats why scripture says every man must pass through the fire ( Gods love) , if wood hay or stubble it will be burned up, death of the soul all is lost, the second death. If gold ,silver or costly stones , you keep all you have built and lose nothing we go from this life to the next seamlessly.

That’s not what 1 Corinthians 3 says brother. It’s the works that are tested by fire not the believer and this passage is exclusively referring to those who are building on the foundation of Christ not everyone man. Not everyone is building on the foundation of Christ.

“According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬-‭15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The wood hay and straw refer to failed attempts to do good works and the gold silver and precious stones refers to successful attempts to do good works. Whether our attempts are successful or not we’re still saved, this judgement is merely to determine the treasures we will receive in heaven according to our works, not salvation itself.

 

[BNR32FAN]

If we want to be precise, the verse does not say "and God will destroy both soul and body in gehenna", it says "fear Him who is able to".

Except for the fact that being thrown into the lake of fire is referred to as the second death. So Jesus is threatening them with a situation that will never happen in Matthew 10? Everyone who acknowledges Me before men I will acknowledge before My Father who is in heaven but anyone who denies me before men I will deny before My father who is in heaven. Throughout the entire chapter Jesus is explaining to His 12 apostles the importance of persevering and these are threats of the consequences they will receive if they fail to do so. It doesn’t make sense to threaten someone with a fate they cannot receive. That would be deceptive.

 

[trophy33]

Except for the fact that being thrown into the lake of fire is referred to as the second death. So Jesus is threatening them with a situation that will never happen in Matthew 10?

You just glued Revelation and Matthew 10 together. Why?

 

[trophy33]

That would be deceptive.

The book of Jonah. I will surely not complain when God will be more merciful than expected by us.

 

[YeshuaFan]

Ok that’s a good point so what about Matthew 10:28?

“Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

If both body and soul is destroyed in the lake of fire how will these people be saved?

And also where in revelation it states Satan and antichrist are still alive a 1000 years after being tossed into lake of fire?

 

[timothyu]

And also where in revelation it states Satan and antichrist are still alive a 1000 years after being tossed into lake of fire?

Does God break a promise? They were, unlike us, created eternal.