Salvation by grace through faith and our responsibility?

[GoldenKingGaze]

Looking at God's salvation He offers through faith by grace, there is a responsibility in our parents, faith preachers and in us to respond and persist, with God's help that eventually leads to holiness with complete free will, and certain sinlessness forever despite any test and one is no longer temptable. In the afterlife.

If someone does not respond to the Gospel preached it may not have been preached well. If someone loses their salvation as in Hebrews 6:6, again, the ministry may have been substandard, and that church should close down. I am sure it is not God's predestined plan.

We need to pray, seek God for ourselves, discern kind versus narcissistic ministry, choose life, guard our hearts, seek more than a taste of grace to overcome sin.

 

[Clare73]

Looking at God's salvation He offers through faith by grace, there is a responsibility in our parents, faith preachers and in us to respond and persist, with God's help that eventually leads to holiness with complete free will, and certain sinlessness forever despite any test and one is no longer temptable. In the afterlife.

Let's start here. . .

Fallen man's will is not completely free. . .he is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.
Fallen man is not free to choose to be sinless. . .he does not have the power.

Fallen man is free to choose what he prefers. . .and he does not prefer radical sinlessness.

Secondly. . .
Fallen man is born spiritually dead, without eternal life, lost by Adam in the fall.
Spiritually dead men are spiritually powerless and can make no spiritual choices, nor take spiritual actions, just as the physically dead can do nothing physical.
That means spiritually dead mean cannot savingly believe or obey.

They must be spiritually reborn into eternal life by the sovereign will (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) and given the gift of faith (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3) in order to believe to salvation.

Having believed by the gift of faith, they are then kept in saving faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13-14, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5).

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Let's start here. . .

Fallen man's will is not completely free. . .he is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.
Fallen man is not free to choose to be sinless. . .he does not have the power.

Fallen man is free to choose what he prefers. . .and he does not prefer radical sinlessness.

Secondly. . .
Fallen man is born spiritually dead, without eternal life, lost by Adam in the fall.
Spiritually dead men are spiritually powerless and can make no spiritual choices, nor take spiritual actions, just as the physically dead can do nothing physical.
That means spiritually dead mean cannot savingly believe or obey.

They must be spiritually reborn into eternal life by the sovereign will (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5) and given the gift of faith (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3) in order to believe to salvation.

Having believed by the gift of faith, they are then kept in saving faith by the power of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13-14, 2 Co 1:22, 5:5).

Hi Clare73, I am writing about being given faith and grace in this life and being perfected in the afterlife.

Now we have responsibilty as preachers and listeners and in receiving. Then growing, and in the afterlife we reach a point in which grace becomes our nature and we have complete freedom and automatically are upright without restriction... God maintains us without us being responsible to seek salvation.

 

[Clare73]

Hi Clare73, I am writing about being given faith and grace in this life and being perfected in the afterlife.

Now we have responsibilty as preachers and listeners and in receiving. Then growing, and in the afterlife we reach a point in which grace becomes our nature and we have complete freedom and automatically are upright without restriction... God maintains us without us being responsible to seek salvation.

Addressed in post #2.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Addressed in post #2.

Clare73, some of us turned to God in fear of death, asking for life, for dear life. Turning into reverence. Remembering the ancient Hebrews. Like Isaiah, Jephtha... God gives us faith in a measure which we have from childhood. Some preachers begin a service aiming to raise faith levels.

When in fear of God I asked for life with death close by, I turned from all sin, but was too confused to try to confess my sins to anyone even God. I knew He knew them and I stopped it all with a view to never going back. After several days I experienced God's presence and a clear conscience on my knees. This cleaning was wonderful and bases my commitment to Jesus. I heard Him say I should ask and receive Him into my heart, but lacking true teaching, I said instead, "No Lord, I am not worthy, send me an angel instead." The preachers had to reach me and teach me over years. There is the need to hear and believe, and be responsible.

There is a need to be responsible against the eternal sin. We have the choice to harden our hearts, or allow the Spirit to do His holy work. Psalm 95:8, Hebrews 3:8. The choice is ours as with the ancient Hebrews. We can do in our hearts what is foolish and some are wiser. Teachings help. Good quality teaching helps.

We can put our faith in God, and ask or just have faith which may not then save. We need to ask, after God chooses us.

We must choose God in return and press in, or be lost, but God will also seek to save us, but if we are irresponsible we can be lost. People God uses to reach us must also be responsible. Where it says in Acts that God obtains all He foreordained it means He foreknew they would respond to grace, not that the others were not wanted or unobtainable. Christ died for them all. Later, others there turned to Jesus.

Romans 2:14-16, and we all have a conscience in God's likeness.

I am a victim of the sinful nature, but have done some right things, from my conscience. I have pressed in and obtained some freedom. I have turned to God after sinning many times. I have cried out to God from knowledge/advice and will to live, and been saved from the eternal sin. Hebrews 6:6.

There is Philippians 2:12,13. God helps us but does not take us over, nor even after we die and yet after we die and are perfected, in freedom we never choose sin. From reverence and love that consumes us and becomes our nature.

So I say, we need to be responsible.

 

[Clare73]

Clare73, some of us turned to God in fear of death, asking for life, for dear life. Turning into reverence. Remembering the ancient Hebrews. Like Isaiah, Jephtha... God gives us faith in a measure which we have from childhood. Some preachers begin a service aiming to raise faith levels.
When in fear of God I asked for life with death close by, I turned from all sin, but was too confused to try to confess my sins to anyone even God. I knew He knew them and I stopped it all with a view to never going back. After several days I experienced God's presence and a clear conscience on my knees. This cleaning was wonderful and bases my commitment to Jesus. I heard Him say I should ask and receive Him into my heart, but lacking true teaching, I said instead, "No Lord, I am not worthy, send me an angel instead." The preachers had to reach me and teach me over years. There is the need to hear and believe, and be responsible.
There is a need to be responsible against the eternal sin. We have the choice to harden our hearts, or allow the Spirit to do His holy work. Psalm 95:8, Hebrews 3:8. The choice is ours as with the ancient Hebrews. We can do in our hearts what is foolish and some are wiser. Teachings help. Good quality teaching helps.

We can put our faith in God, and ask or just have faith which may not then save. We need to ask, after God chooses us.
We must choose God in return and press in, or be lost, but God will also seek to save us, but if we are irresponsible we can be lost. People God uses to reach us must also be responsible. Where it says in Acts that God obtains all He foreordained it means He foreknew they would respond to grace,

Actually, it means God's foreknowledge of his own decree to give them saving faith.

not that the others were not wanted or unobtainable. Christ died for them all. Later, others there turned to Jesus.
Romans 2:14-16, and we all have a conscience in God's likeness.
I am a victim of the sinful nature, but have done some right things, from my conscience. I have pressed in and obtained some freedom. I have turned to God after sinning many times. I have cried out to God from knowledge/advice and will to live, and been saved from the eternal sin. Hebrews 6:6.

There is Philippians 2:12,13. God helps us but does not take us over,

Read it again. . .God works in us both to will and to do.

nor even after we die and yet after we die and are perfected, in freedom we never choose sin. From reverence and love that consumes us and becomes our nature.
So I say, we need to be responsible.

Scripture presents no such spiritual freedom, but quite the contrary, Jesus said we are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.

Free will is a construct of man, not of Scripture. . .based on the assumption that if God holds man responsible, then man must have free will.
Biblically, it is not so. . .man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34).

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Actually, it means God's foreknowledge of his own decree to give them saving faith.


Read it again. . .God works in us both to will and to do.

Scripture presents no such spiritual freedom, but quite the contrary, Jesus said we are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.

Free will is a construct of man, not of Scripture. . .based on the assumption that if God holds man responsible, then man must have free will.
Biblically, it is not so. . .man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34).

God does not decree that some persons will not be saved. God does not need foreknowledge of His own decree. He can remember it. As in Romans 8:29 God foreknows who will say yes to the Gospel when they hear it. And many children would have heard Paul, but not understood, due to young age, but if they died, as without modern medicine many did, they would have entered the light of life. It is automatic for them.

Philippians 2:12,13 NKJV reads
12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

We must be responsible to use our salvation and be reverent.

If we attend church, and stand by, and don't choose but just wait for grace, nothing will happen. If we worry, also there is no good result. And there is a kind of sorrow that does not lead to repentance. 2 Corinthians 7:10. We must know not to harden our hearts and choose life, then with the Holy Spirit inside sealing us, we have the option to work out by surrender, dying to self, dying the seed, to manifest the fruit of the Spirit Galatians 5:22.

Also in Romans 8:11, Paul says we can ask and receive the power of the resurrection. A great power in the fight against sin. And by His Spirit we put to death fleshly sin deeds.

Without surrender, God will not force through His grace. You won't manifest love, and great qualities to bear are faith and patience, as you mentioned earlier, great for God's grace and will to come to effect. You still have to decide on praying, and wise words, for with faith and patience comes answers.

We begin to overcome slavery when born again. Receive the Spirit and the power of the resurrection, the power of Jesus' blood, makes the heart clean, walking in love is not slavery.

Even in the OT Isaiah 1:18-20, reasoning with God, could make the heart clean. And Isaiah 10:27, the anointing breaks the yoke of bondage, the Spirit against sin bondage, slavery. Luke 4 has Jesus anointed to set prisoners free, mend broken hearts, heal...

In this life we can be set free, I have gained some of that, and in the next life, the elect have no sin or slavery. No threat, free choice and only perfect choices for the completely mature.

In context John 8:34-36 NKJV.
34Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

You are born again, your new identity and behaviour leads to eternal life as above.

John 3:14-17 NKJV
the Son of Man be lifted up, 15that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

God wants each and every person, died for all, for whosoever may come. To save all, 1 Timothy 4:10, God the saviour of all especially those who believe, and this should include those non believers in dark corners of Africa... who follow their conscience, and love people as adults, and children who perish. The rejection of grace is something learned, as with Pharaoh is Moses day. Alternately, he could have chosen from boyhood to worship with the Hebrews, but living to mature age he hardened his heart. If he died as a boy, He would have been better off.

 

[Clare73]

God does not decree that some persons will not be saved. God does not need foreknowledge of His own decree. He can remember it.

Relevance?

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Relevance?

Scripturally, in keeping with God's love as expressed for all people, believers and non believers. The idea that God has to use foreknowledge of His own decrees and that there are such decrees is man made.

 

[Clare73]

Scripturally, in keeping with God's love as expressed for all people, believers and non believers. The idea that God has to use foreknowledge of His own decrees and that there are such decrees is man made.

Perhaps a review of Ac 15:18, 2:23, 4:28 is in order. . .

And then there is the principle of Ro 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Looking at God's salvation He offers through faith by grace, there is a responsibility in our parents, faith preachers and in us to respond and persist, with God's help that eventually leads to holiness with complete free will, and certain sinlessness forever despite any test and one is no longer temptable. In the afterlife.

If someone does not respond to the Gospel preached it may not have been preached well. If someone loses their salvation as in Hebrews 6:6, again, the ministry may have been substandard, and that church should close down. I am sure it is not God's predestined plan.

We need to pray, seek God for ourselves, discern kind versus narcissistic ministry, choose life, guard our hearts, seek more than a taste of grace to overcome sin.

There is a degree of responsibility we hold for warning people to turn from sin to God.

Eze 33:6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman's hand.'

According to the above our ministry can be substandard, and result in the death of a member. It pays to remember this and not shy from declaring the whole truth to those who listen to us.

Yes, it is possible for a member of church to be eternally lost according to Hebrews 6. This puts on us a burden to remind the members as Ezekiel 33 declares to "warn" the people to not remain "in his iniquity", but to move away from sin.

As for God's predestined plan, it is not his will that any perish, but all be given a chance of salvation. Not all will accept it, but it is given to all.

As I discuss in the following The Way and Free Will God's plan is not fixed, but flexes with human choices. We see this in Genisis:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

When God saw how the heart of man gravitated toward evil, He was sorry He had created man. This shows us that God does not control man's actions. Predestination was not taught for the first 400 years of Christain history, they all taught that man has free will. It was only Augustine who introduced the idea, which was later taken up by the "Reformers", and became popular in some circles.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Perhaps a review of Ac 15:18, 2:23, 4:28 is in order. . .

And then there is the principle of Ro 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

These scriptures are interpreted in context such as Romans 8:29 through chapter 9 and into chapter 10. God foreknew who would be spiritual and respond to mercy shown to all, for God in these verses loves and intercedes for all. Starting in Romans 8 which is not contradicted in 9. Esau was unspiritual as is common, since we love to eat and may lack worship for it. Fasting and prayer is commended, but not if done as religious legalist rule keeping, as in Romans 10 on the error of the Jews. God doesn't harden hearts He can soften, He loves them. We have a choice and are commanded not to harden our hearts, and to choose life. That decision God can't make for us. Otherwise that is like rape intimacy.

The writers and listeners to these words at first didn't mean to suggest predestined sovereign choice of destiny. Augustine bishop of Hippo invented that centuries later.

God foreknew our errors and counselled in Himself and in regards to the angels, that the best thing to do for us is undergo death by the sinners hands. God foreknows all His works, He can't force us to be spiritual and accept mercy and show mercy...

God has mercy interceding for all, even after rejection, but some refuse it. They harden themselves, then grace hardens them. As with Pharaoh, who missed his chances as a child and youth. In Exodus, the first mentions of Pharaoh say God knows what he will do in advance. God uses that.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good day, GKG

The commands from the creator are to repentant and believe as his creation we are responsible to do so. That command is solely based upon the creator's authority to give it.

I would say Salvation is of the Lord, Christ build his church those are his responsibilities.

You must be born again... not of the flesh but born by God and by His will.

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

In Him,

Bill

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Good day, GKG

The commands from the creator are to repentant and believe as his creation we are responsible to do so. That command is solely based upon the creator's authority to give it.

I would say Salvation is of the Lord, Christ build his church those are his responsibilities.

You must be born again... not of the flesh but born by God and by His will.

who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

In Him,

Bill

So "if today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts." And "choose life."

But many people who die such as in a car accident or simply a heart attack, and are resuscitated have seen the light, met ancestors and Jesus, and have seen a review of the their whole life and it's impacts. They return full of love. Perhaps they are young at heart, for like children, without reverence and the Gospel, they see the light and automatically take to it, like a fish returned to water. They are filled and digest it.

 

[BBAS 64]

So "if today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts." And "choose life."

But many people who die such as in a car accident or simply a heart attack, and are resuscitated have seen the light, met ancestors and Jesus, and have seen a review of the their whole life and it's impacts. They return full of love. Perhaps they are young at heart, for like children, without reverence and the Gospel, they see the light and automatically take to it, like a fish returned to water. They are filled and digest it.

Good Day, GKG

Well sort of under the OC as you notice the context about their fathers v 9.

We under the better promise have to account for those who lack the ability to hear:

Why do you not understand my speech? even because you cannot hear my word.
You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speak of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

A man who loves the darkness and hates that light will always cling to the darkness he loves, run from the light he hates. To this one the Gospel is foolishness. Because his heart and mind are full of wickedness and deceit and he loves it.

We can only pray that God will adopt them as his own like only He can do, and then he becomes our Father. If he does not adopt then we are not His children, indeed still His creation yes, but His children no.

God must act:

Heb 3:15 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

He will put his laws... write them on a new heart that he gives us ( EZE: 36:26) as a result He becomes our God and we become His people.

Salvation is of the Lord He alone is the sufficient and effective cause the beauty of the NC!

Do you agree with the two things I wrote you skipped them.

The commands from the creator are to repentant and believe as his creation we are responsible to do so. That command is solely based upon the creator's authority to give it.

I would say Salvation is of the Lord, Christ build his church those are his responsibilities.



In Him,
Bill

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Good Day, GKG

Well sort of under the OC as you notice the context about their fathers v 9.

We under the better promise have to account for those who lack the ability to hear:

Why do you not understand my speech? even because you cannot hear my word.
You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speak of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

A man who loves the darkness and hates that light will always cling to the darkness he loves, run from the light he hates. To this one the Gospel is foolishness. Because his heart and mind are full of wickedness and deceit and he loves it.

We can only pray that God will adopt them as his own like only He can do, and then he becomes our Father. If he does not adopt then we are not His children, indeed still His creation yes, but His children no.

God must act:

Heb 3:15 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jer 31:33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

He will put his laws... write them on a new heart that he gives us ( EZE: 36:26) as a result He becomes our God and we become His people.

Salvation is of the Lord He alone is the sufficient and effective cause the beauty of the NC!

Do you agree with the two things I wrote you skipped them.

The commands from the creator are to repentant and believe as his creation we are responsible to do so. That command is solely based upon the creator's authority to give it.

I would say Salvation is of the Lord, Christ build his church those are his responsibilities.



In Him,
Bill

Christ's responsibility can't be forced on us, we need to accept, but some of that is for law breakers. Will God harden the heart of a one year old infant that perishes, as they sometimes have? Will He look ahead to the life the little one would have led? Or take advantage of their trust and freshness to grace?

Forced worship is like forced marriage or romance. God never does that.