The Full Spectrum of Christian Belief on Origins - where are you?

[Platte]

This doesn't mean the Inca were smarter than many Old World cultures. As you know, Jericho, Stonehenge, and Gobekli Tepe were built by preliterate peoples.

pretty naive of you. None of these builders were illiterate. I just showed you an example of the Incas. That you said were also.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Great. That’s a good start. I like that you agree that Genesis teaches Creation was ~6000 years ago and took 6 days to complete

The text of Genesis 1 generally expresses what appears to be a 6 day creation narrative, but I don't try to make it line up with the billions of years the earth and its life forms have been developing.

 

[Fervent]

Great. That’s a good start. I like that you agree that Genesis teaches Creation was ~6000 years ago and took 6 days to complete

Sure, though I line up with William Lane Craig on Genesis 1-11 being mytho-history rather than genuine history. The model provides theological insights, but more than likely isn't strictly factual.

 

[Platte]

The text of Genesis 1 generally expresses what appears to be a 6 day creation narrative, but I don't try to make it line up with the billions of years the earth and its life forms have been developing.

I think agreeing that the Bible teaches a 6 day creation is a good start. Recognizing what the Bible says is important - even if you don't believe it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think agreeing that the Bible teaches a 6 day creation is a good start. Recognizing what the Bible says is important - even if you don't believe it.

I know it's a good start, but being that I've been studying so many things for so long, it's as far as I can go with the text of the first 11 chapters of Genesis.

 

[The Barbarian]

I think agreeing that the Bible teaches a 6 day creation is a good start.

The text itself says that the day of creation aren't literal 24 hour days. Recognizing what the Bible says is important - even if you don't believe it.

 

[Platte]

I know it's a good start, but being that I've been studying so many things for so long, it's as far as I can go with the text of the first 11 chapters of Genesis.

I find it interesting how Jesus and the New Testament authors refer to the first 11 chapters and the context of how they took those chapters. Pretty amazing that they even refer to those chapters IMHO.

 

[The Barbarian]

pretty naive of you. None of these builders were illiterate. I just showed you an example of the Incas. That you said were also.

They didn't have any writing. The quipu were basically accounting, using numbers and keys. The corded strings have actually been partially decoded. None of it contains enough information to build a structure. This kind of thing could have evolved into actual writing, as it did in China and Mesopotamia. In each case, writing was preceded by marks on bones or clay, before it actually developed into writing. It's notable that the Chinese heated turtle plastrons and read the cracks that developed as a way of divining answers to questions. Supposedly, the character "not" 不 is derived from the crack so interpreted on the plaston.

Such systems emerged from earlier traditions of symbol systems in the early Neolithic, as early as the 7th millennium BC in China and southeastern Europe. They used ideographic or early mnemonic symbols or both to represent a limited number of concepts, in contrast to true writing systems, which record the language of the writer.

And the methods the Inca used, was borrowed from an earlier culture, the Tiwanaku, which didn't even use quipu.

Tiwanaku (Spanish: Tiahuanaco or Tiahuanacu) is a Pre-Columbian archaeological site in western Bolivia, near Lake Titicaca, about 70 kilometers from La Paz, and it is one of the largest sites in South America. Surface remains currently cover around 4 square kilometers and include decorated ceramics, monumental structures, and megalithic blocks. It has been conservatively estimated that the site was inhabited by 10,000 to 20,000 people in AD 800.
This doesn't mean the Inca were smarter than many Old World cultures. As you know, Jericho, Stonehenge, and Gobekli Tepe were also built by preliterate peoples.

 

[Platte]

The text itself says that the day of creation aren't literal 24 hour days. Recognizing what the Bible says is important - even if you don't believe it.

The only day I'm aware of is a 24 hour day. God providing us clarity in Exodus 20 was kind of Him.

1 And God spake all these words, saying,

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Recognizing what the Bible says is important - even if you don't believe it.

 

[Platte]

They didn't have any writing. The quipu were basically accounting, using numbers and keys. The corded strings have actually been partially decoded. None of it contains enough information to build a structure. This kind of thing could have evolved into actual writing, as it did in China and Mesopotamia. In each case, writing was preceded by marks on bones or clay, before it actually developed into writing. It's notable that the Chinese heated turtle plastrons and read the cracks that developed as a way of divining answers to questions. Supposedly, the character "not" 不 is derived from the crack so interpreted on the plaston.

Such systems emerged from earlier traditions of symbol systems in the early Neolithic, as early as the 7th millennium BC in China and southeastern Europe. They used ideographic or early mnemonic symbols or both to represent a limited number of concepts, in contrast to true writing systems, which record the language of the writer.

And the methods the Inca used, was borrowed from an earlier culture, the Tiwanaku, which didn't even use quipu.

Tiwanaku (Spanish: Tiahuanaco or Tiahuanacu) is a Pre-Columbian archaeological site in western Bolivia, near Lake Titicaca, about 70 kilometers from La Paz, and it is one of the largest sites in South America. Surface remains currently cover around 4 square kilometers and include decorated ceramics, monumental structures, and megalithic blocks. It has been conservatively estimated that the site was inhabited by 10,000 to 20,000 people in AD 800.
This doesn't mean the Inca were smarter than many Old World cultures. As you know, Jericho, Stonehenge, and Gobekli Tepe were also built by preliterate peoples.

You underestimate....

Gate of the Sun​

the carvings that decorate the gate are believed to possess astronomical and/or astrological significance and may have served a calendrical purpose.

....That's called writing. If they had writings on calendrical purposes they had writing on many other things....

 

[FaithT]

The text itself says that the day of creation aren't literal 24 hour days. Recognizing what the Bible says is important - even if you don't believe it.

Where does the Bible say that?

 

[The Barbarian]

Where does the Bible say that?

Where in one chapter is says six days and in the next says it was in the day God created heaven and earth. Where is talks about mornings and evenings before a sun existed to have them. If it's necessary to redefine everyday words to make one's interpretation work, that's a pretty good clue, isn't it?

 

[The Barbarian]

Gate of the Sun​

the carvings that decorate the gate are believed to possess astronomical and/or astrological significance and may have served a calendrical purpose.

....That's called writing. If they had writings on calendrical purposes they had writing on many other things....

No. That's not writing. Let's review...

Writing is the act of creating a persistent representation of language. A writing system includes a particular set of symbols called a script, as well as the rules by which they encode a particular spoken language. Every written language arises from a corresponding spoken language; while the use of language is universal across human societies, most spoken languages are not written.

Writing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Marks on a stick to count days is not writing. Symbols on a wall are not writing. As you now realize, pre-literate societies were quite capable of building complex structures without writing. I gave you some examples.

 

[Platte]

Where in one chapter is says six days and in the next says it was in the day God created heaven and earth. Where is talks about mornings and evenings before a sun existed to have them. If it's necessary to redefine everyday words to make one's interpretation work, that's a pretty good clue, isn't it?

With a rotating earth - any single light source would create a day being 24 hours.

 

[FaithT]

Where in one chapter is says six days and in the next says it was in the day God created heaven and earth. Where is talks about mornings and evenings before a sun existed to have them. If it's necessary to redefine everyday words to make one's interpretation work, that's a pretty good clue, isn't it?

Yep.

 

[Platte]

No. That's not writing. Let's review...

Writing is the act of creating a persistent representation of language. A writing system includes a particular set of symbols called a script, as well as the rules by which they encode a particular spoken language. Every written language arises from a corresponding spoken language; while the use of language is universal across human societies, most spoken languages are not written.

Writing - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Marks on a stick to count days is not writing. Symbols on a wall are not writing. As you now realize, pre-literate societies were quite capable of building complex structures without writing. I gave you some examples.

All of these civiliazation had language. And the symbols represented that language. The gate of the sun had a writing on it...everyone who speaks...will write. they will write a symbol at min to represent what they say.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But Bonhoffer, if you scanned through these posts, you would find that every TE here believes that God *could* have created the earth in an instant, that He could have done it however He wanted. We all believe this. He IS God, after all.

We just think that all the evidence points very clearly to the fact that He did NOT create it this way. So clearly, in fact, as to make the possibility miniscule. Further, as I state above, I have a theological reason for not accepting 3, since that would make God out to be a deceiver.

On the issue of Adam and Eve, a rejection of a literal Adam and Eve is not un-Biblical, it is just non-literal. It is very common for ancient cultures to tie actual history into figurative characters, even in genealogies. Early cultures did not draw the bright line between history and legend that we do today, with our scientific minds and greater knowledge of what *was* historical. Caesar, for example, traced his lineage back to Venus, but almost assuredly did not view this as historically accurate, but he still would have said it was "true" in every important sense. This is difficult for us to get our head around today, since we draw such a strict line between the two and search assiduously for which is which.

Again, those who might believe that Adam and Eve were not literal still believe that the Bible is true and is God's Holy Word to us today. For example, 90% of the Anglican clergy do not believe in a literal Adam and Eve, yet they still believe Scripture is God's Holy Word.

How can a person believe that the word of God is true if they don’t believe what is written in it? That sounds like a contradiction of terms. I’m a YEC BTW.

 

[The Barbarian]

Where in one chapter is says six days and in the next says it was in the day God created heaven and earth. Where is talks about mornings and evenings before a sun existed to have them. If it's necessary to redefine everyday words to make one's interpretation work, that's a pretty good clue, isn't it?

With a rotating earth - any single light source would create a day being 24 hours.

If morning is when a big light appears in the sky, moonrise would mark mornings. If it's necessary to redefine common words to make one's interpretation of scripture work, that's a pretty good clue that the interpretation is wrong.

 

[The Barbarian]

How can a person believe that the word of God is true if they don’t believe what is written in it? That sounds like a contradiction of terms. I’m a YEC BTW.

Christian interpretations of Genesis vary. Each of those is by someone who thinks he or she has it right. We have to be careful to distinguish between our interpretations and what He actually said. They might not be quite the same thing.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Where in one chapter is says six days and in the next says it was in the day God created heaven and earth. Where is talks about mornings and evenings before a sun existed to have them. If it's necessary to redefine everyday words to make one's interpretation work, that's a pretty good clue, isn't it?

That’s because you don’t study the actual Hebrew words. You’re comparing Yovm (day) to Beyovm (in the day). We use the term “in the day” the same way. Yovm is never translated as any period of time other than a 24 hour period in the OT. Beyovm on the other hand can either be used in reference to a 24 hour period of time or an era or an age.

And you completely ignored day one where God created light and separated the light from the darkness and called the light day and the dark night. So it’s pretty easy to understand that obviously there was light before the sun was created. It isn’t hard to figure that one out, it’s stated right there in verses 3-5 in chapter 1.