Lenin and Russia

[RileyG]

Hi,

Why is Lenin’s body still on display in Russia? Isn’t Russia now an Orthodox country that rejects communism? I understand he died 100 years ago, his body has to be chemically treated every year to avoid decomposition, and most of the organic material is long gone.

Why don’t they just bury his body in an undisclosed location and move on?

Any thoughts?

 

[gzt]

Russia is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious society, not an Orthodox country. It has a complicated relationship with its communist past which is certainly not a wholesale rejection (especially when it comes to Stalin -- he beat the Nazis!). At the very least, Lenin is a museum piece.

 

[RileyG]

Russia is a multi-ethnic, multi-religious society, not an Orthodox country. It has a complicated relationship with its communist past which is certainly not a wholesale rejection (especially when it comes to Stalin -- he beat the Nazis!). At the very least, Lenin is a museum piece.

Aren't most of the Russian citizens faithful Orthodox? I think communism would rather be an embarrassement, and they wanted to bury their past- literally and figuratively.

Thanks for the info!

 

[gzt]

Maybe 2/3 identify as Orthodox, 10-15% as Muslim, 20-25% as no religion, but generally Orthodoxy and communism are not contradictory (indeed the current communist party there was recently (or still is, I'm not sure if he's still leading it) headed by a Christian), much of that Orthodox number is in name only anyway... Again, the Russian relationship to communist history is a lot more complicated than "hoo boy that was embarrassing", especially after the horrible way the transition to capitalism or kleptocratic oligarchy was managed. There's a lot of nostalgia. But even before the fall of communism, things were complicated -- an extremely interesting book you might enjoy is The Illuminating Icon by Ugolnik, written and published during perestroika/glasnost by an American Orthodox scholar on, broadly speaking, the influence of Christianity on contemporary Russian culture in that time period right before the fall of the Soviet Union. I'd be very interested if somebody did a 21st century version of that book about current Russian culture...

 

[prodromos]

Hi,

Why is Lenin’s body still on display in Russia? Isn’t Russia now an Orthodox country that rejects communism? I understand he died 100 years ago, his body has to be chemically treated every year to avoid decomposition, and most of the organic material is long gone.

Why don’t they just bury his body in an undisclosed location and move on?

Any thoughts?

He provides a nice contrast to the relics of our Saints. His body is subject to corruption whereas the Saints body's are incorrupt, either remaining whole or exuding an ineffable fragrance from their bones.

 

[RileyG]

Maybe 2/3 identify as Orthodox, 10-15% as Muslim, 20-25% as no religion, but generally Orthodoxy and communism are not contradictory (indeed the current communist party there was recently (or still is, I'm not sure if he's still leading it) headed by a Christian), much of that Orthodox number is in name only anyway... Again, the Russian relationship to communist history is a lot more complicated than "hoo boy that was embarrassing", especially after the horrible way the transition to capitalism or kleptocratic oligarchy was managed. There's a lot of nostalgia. But even before the fall of communism, things were complicated -- an extremely interesting book you might enjoy is The Illuminating Icon by Ugolnik, written and published during perestroika/glasnost by an American Orthodox scholar on, broadly speaking, the influence of Christianity on contemporary Russian culture in that time period right before the fall of the Soviet Union. I'd be very interested if somebody did a 21st century version of that book about current Russian culture...

Thanks for the info!

 

[RileyG]

He provides a nice contrast to the relics of our Saints. His body is subject to corruption whereas the Saints body's are incorrupt, either remaining whole or exuding an ineffable fragrance from their bones.

So the only reason to keep him on display is a reminder of the past?

 

[prodromos]

So the only reason to keep him on display is a reminder of the past?

As I am not Russian, I can't really say. I personally would consider his corpse a museum piece.

 

[RileyG]

As I am not Russian, I can't really say. I personally would consider his corpse a museum piece.

That’s…..ummm…….odd.

I understand displaying The Saints for veneration by the faithful, BUT an atheist communist leader? No.

Just no.

 

[prodromos]

That’s…..ummm…….odd.

I understand displaying The Saints for veneration by the faithful, BUT an atheist communist leader? No.

Just no.

You've never been to a museum with the mummified body of an Egyptian Pharaoh on display?

 

[RileyG]

You've never been to a museum with the mummified body of an Egyptian Pharaoh on display?

Not in Egypt, no.

I’ve been to Italy when I saw incorruptible (Roman Catholic) Saints, as well as Philadelphia where I saw the body of St. John Neumann (not to be confused with the English Saint, St. John Henry Neumann)

I saw the body of St. Clare of Assisi in Assisi and St. Pope John XIII at St. Peter’s in Rome.

I saw the tongue of St. Anthony of Padua, and touched his tomb.

I think when I was in a museum in London, 10+ years ago, I saw some remains.

I don’t remember for sure.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hi,

Why is Lenin’s body still on display in Russia? Isn’t Russia now an Orthodox country that rejects communism? I understand he died 100 years ago, his body has to be chemically treated every year to avoid decomposition, and most of the organic material is long gone.

Why don’t they just bury his body in an undisclosed location and move on?

Any thoughts?

Putin doesn't allow it because he knows there are still a number of Russians who are sentimental about the "past value" of Lenin's leadership. So, until those Russian citizens pass off the scene, Lenin's tomb is likely to stay in place for the time being.

Lenin’s Mausoleum: Why Russia Still Displays Its Revolutionary Leader

The story of Lenin’s embalmed body and his mausoleum is a unique intersection of history, science, and political ideology.

historyaffairs.com

https://apnews.com/article/lenin-russia-soviet-union-mausoleum-putin-de0e5ebc0fb12892b0ae0564f60baa78

 

[Dorothea]

So the only reason to keep him on display is a reminder of the past?

Yes. When Putin became president of Russia he said it's good to keep the things from the Soviet past in museums for reminders and of their history. They prefer not to erase their history but use it as a lesson and for knowledge purposes.

 

[RileyG]

Yes. When Putin became president of Russia he said it's good to keep the things from the Soviet past in museums for reminders and of their history. They prefer not to erase their history but use it as a lesson and for knowledge purposes.

That’s rather interesting. I understand his body has to be maintained, because it won’t last forever.

 

[rusmeister]

Yes. When Putin became president of Russia he said it's good to keep the things from the Soviet past in museums for reminders and of their history. They prefer not to erase their history but use it as a lesson and for knowledge purposes.

I’m sorry to say that I can’t agree with this. It was true fifteen years ago, and is not true today. The government has changed its tone to whitewash the Soviet past. They shut down organizations investigating past Soviet evils and fanricated charges and imprisoned those that persisted. Some, like Nikolai Epplee, managed to flee abroad. Others, like Yuri Dmitriev, are in prison on false charges. There are reasons why I can no longer support the Russian side, though I by no means support the other sides.

 

[Dorothea]

I’m sorry to say that I can’t agree with this. It was true fifteen years ago, and is not true today. The government has changed its tone to whitewash the Soviet past. They shut down organizations investigating past Soviet evils and fanricated charges and imprisoned those that persisted. Some, like Nikolai Epplee, managed to flee abroad. Others, like Yuri Dmitriev, are in prison on false charges. There are reasons why I can no longer support the Russian side, though I by no means support the other sides.

Thanks for the information. You would know better having lived there for many years.

 

[rusmeister]

The organization was exposing Stalin-era crimes; it was brutally crushed - Dmitriev’s case in particular is egregious. Russians in Russia are now afraid to openly express any opinion that doesn’t toe the government’s line. As long as they keep quiet, they are mostly left alone. But so much for any freedom of speech. I say this with bitterness because I love Russia and would like to see the same freedom and prosperity we knew at one time in America, and some of which we still have, and would like to see the Russian Church drawing people to the Kingdom of Heaven rather than cynically working for the government.

Yury Dmitriev - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rusmeister]

A statue of Lenin standing in a town near our own. They have by no means renounced their past evils.

 

[ArmyMatt]

He provides a nice contrast to the relics of our Saints. His body is subject to corruption whereas the Saints body's are incorrupt, either remaining whole or exuding an ineffable fragrance from their bones.

I always loved Fr Hopko calling Lenin’s tomb “dull, dark, and ridiculous.”

 

[rusmeister]

Just came across this. I am doomed.