What do you say to anti-theists on the formation of the universe?

[Hans Blaster]

What gave you the impression I think you don't believe you don't believe?

What's with the "believe you don't believe" business? Can you not just accept that people genuinely don't believe. I don't "believe" I don't believe in your god any more, I know that I don't believe in it anymore.

Again, it's either believe a human being who is capable of lying or believing God.

A false dichotomy. There are other options, if you actually listened to these atheists you say you have conversations with, you'd realize that they genuinely don't believe.

It's not a hard decision, regardless of how you think it paints you.

I choose neither, and your assumptions about me are your problem, not mine.

 

[Neogaia777]

I think some of you guys are underestimating the possibility that there could be an all-encompasing God, or to us, some kind of "God-like being" right now as compared to us right now, or even lesser gods as compared to us right now, if viewed through a 100% truly objective lens, etc. I'm maybe not expecting it to exceed 50% with you guys right now or yet, but I think the possibility is greater than you are giving it credit for if viewed through a 100% completely objective lens, which I don't think many of you are right now doing yet, etc. For me, it exceeded 50% a long, long time ago already, but wasn't always, etc. I definitely, definitely went through my period of a lot of, a lot of doubts, etc, but doubts that have since been tilted in the other direction since then, etc. I'm 99.9% certain of most of what I believe now, etc, but it differs very, very much greatly from the ways that just about anyone else believes, or says they believe, and it has been that very, very different understanding, which differs very, very much greatly from the "norm", that has helped me to tilt those scales of those possibilities in the other direction since then, etc. If you just simply listen to those others and what they say they believe, etc, then I can very, very much understand how it would be much, much less than 50% right now really, etc. Many of them aren't even aware of such things that are called logic and/or reason, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

For example, and I'm very, very sorry for just only picking on you right now @Ophiolite but why would just the simple word faith be abhorrent to you, or why would it trigger you in such a way, unless it became that way maybe due to some of your experiences maybe, or maybe multiple experiences sometimes maybe involving others (or sometimes maybe not) maybe? Does not that practically scream of bias actually? And wouldn't that greatly, greatly affect how you evaluate the possibilities?

I don't mean to just only pick on you @Ophiolite as everyone is most usually gulity of this in some way or another actually, and this even extends to many so-called believers in their believing actually.

Take Care.

 

[Neogaia777]

I witnessed firsthand directly, evidence of a being here in this world with us that was capable of altering/manipulating very many things. Some of the very first experiences I had was of it manipulating the forces of nature actually, which scared the crud out of me the first few times it happened to me actually, as I think it would have anybody, etc, and also how he/it could manipulate a lot of other things as well, and I experienced/still experience these things most of the time directly, etc, so that there is no denying any of it all actually, etc. It was necessary in order to tip those scales the rest of the way, or esuage any of the rest of the doubts that I was having, etc. Now when things like that happen I see them as appointments actually, etc. Times when I am supposed to be here or there to do or not do this or that specific thing, etc. I also sometimes realize (or remember) right then in those moments and those moments only (or sometimes afterward) that I had already had a preview of this already having happened before in a dream, etc, but most of the time I only realize this only after the fact most of the time actually. Beyond this is the more regular stuff, etc, do you think the people in the Bible were real or actual, and if you do, then do you really think it's possible that they could have been resurrected from the dead, or that many of the other "much more beyond normal things" were possible to be happening, etc. The answer is yes now of course, most especially in light of what I personally experienced, and still do experience a lot personally, but that wasn't the answer always, etc. My knowledge and understanding has also grown now a lot also, into something now much more logically believable now actually, but my theology is very, very different from anybodies, etc, and many other christians think it's actually very, very much highly "heretical" actually, so much so, that I can't normally discuss it with anybody. Oh, and I hear his voice now also, which is something a bit much more newer, or much more recent to me, and I'm right now still gaining experience with that right now actually, etc. I know all three, and have a relationship with each of them now personally actually, etc. And at the risk of this post getting to the point that no one will bother reading it, I'm going to stop right there for now actually. Oh, and I have not cleaned up all of my sin, or become perfect in regards to sin yet, which means this is right now still possible for anybody actually, etc. I'm not any more different or more special than anyone else actually, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

I don't know anything.

Sure you do. I assume you know that the earth is round. I assume you know you exist. I assume you know it is wrong to put pineapple on pizza. According to my faith tradition, one day you will know Jesus is Lord and will bow down before Him. Unfortunately, when that time comes, it will be too late because we are saved by faith, not by knowing.

 

[Neogaia777]

Sure you do. I assume you know that the earth is round. I assume you know you exist. I assume you know it is wrong to put pineapple on pizza. According to my faith tradition, one day you will know Jesus is Lord and will bow down before Him. Unfortunately, when that time comes, it will be too late because we are saved by faith, not by knowing.

Accurately knowing a few things can help though, etc.

I don't think that God somehow thinks that people that have 100% completely blind faith, or faith that is 100% beyond reason, are somehow more special in some way, etc. But I do agree with you that it will still probably take some small measure of faith to make up for what is lacking always though, etc.

You can get to a point of maybe thinking or saying that a lot of this could be true, or maybe is even most likely true, but you still have to decide in the end, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

If you have evidence that you accept as being valid then you can believe something exists, even if you can't prove it.

Yes. Remember my basement dragon? You demanded physical evidence, and I provided physical evidence. But that evidence wasn't enough. For the theist, the evidence is everywhere and have come to a reasonable conclusion that God exists. But because they cannot know with absolute certainty, faith is required. But it is a reasonable faith grounded on evidence. The atheist rejects the evidence and claim no evidence exists because evidence is subjective. But they have their own evidence and have reasonably concluded that there is no God. But because they cannot know with absolute certainty, faith is required. Again I emphasize that I am speaking of atheists who make the truth claim. This does not apply to agnostics.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Accurately knowing a few things can help though, etc.

I don't think that God somehow thinks that people that have 100% completely blind faith, or faith that is 100% beyond reason, are somehow more special in some way, etc. But I do agree with you that it will still probably take some small measure of faith to make up for what is lacking always though, etc.

You can get to a point of maybe thinking or saying that a lot of this could be true, or maybe is even most likely true, but you still have to decide in the end, etc.

God Bless.

You are correct. God doesn't want us to have a blind faith. He wants us to have a reasonable faith.

1 Peter 3:15 NIV
[15] But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Mark 12:30 NIV
[30] Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

 

[BCP1928]

Depends on how we understand "natural", if we include a rider about irrelevance of deities then no. If we strictly mean the regular nomological functions than sure. My issue isn't with physicists only considering current consensus physical models while conducting science, it is when the model becomes reified and presented as an excuse for atheistic worldviews and subsequenr refusal to engage with criticisms of those worldviews that come through philosophy. So yes and no, depending on application.

So if it's about a conflict of worldviews then the issue is not relevant to this forum at all, any more than the issue of whether God exists or not.

 

[Ophiolite]

Sure you do. I assume you know that the earth is round. I assume you know you exist. I assume you know it is wrong to put pineapple on pizza. According to my faith tradition, one day you will know Jesus is Lord and will bow down before Him. Unfortunately, when that time comes, it will be too late because we are saved by faith, not by knowing.

I most certainly do not know the Earth is round. I am aware that the there is a large body of evidence that supports the notion that the Earth is round. I am also aware that many of the arguments for a flat Earth have been debunked. On a practical basis it makes no difference to me as to whether it is flat, or round. However, because the evidence I am aware of points to it being round, that is what I accept until and unless the evidence changes. Also, the universe associated with a round Earth is much more interesting than the flat Earth variety, so that's a gratuitious benefit.

Actually, if you insist on playing the "know" game, then I "know" that the Earth is almost certainly not round, but is closer to an oblate spheroid, with a pear-shaped overlay caused by mascons. At least that was the view in the late 1960s. I haven't bothered to check since.

You say you assume I know that I exist. Hmm. I seem to exist, but I haven't ruled out the possibility that I'm just being imagined by a banjo player in the Andaman Islands. Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

I'll repeat, and perhaps this time you will understand it. I don't know things and I don't value faith. Please stop behaving as if you know how I think. The evidence strongly suggests it is not your superpower.

 

[partinobodycular]

You are correct. God doesn't want us to have a blind faith. He wants us to have a reasonable faith.

1 Peter 3:15 NIV
[15] But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Mark 12:30 NIV
[30] Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’

Just as a point of clarification, the first scripture doesn't say that the answer that you give must be rational, and as to the second scripture even a complete lunatic can do the same.

Thus they in no way infer that God wants your faith to be reasonable, in fact the very fact that it's faith implies that to some extent at least, it isn't.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

I'll repeat, and perhaps this time you will understand it. I don't know things and I don't value faith.

How do you know that?

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Just as a point of clarification, the first scripture doesn't say that the answer that you give must be rational, and as to the second scripture even a complete lunatic can do the same.

Thus they in no way infer that God wants your faith to be reasonable, in fact the very fact that it's faith implies that to some extent at least, it isn't.

God wants you to be prepared to articulate the reason for your faith. "I am a Christian because my parents raised me Christian" doesn't cut it.

 

[partinobodycular]

God wants you to be prepared to articulate the reason for your faith. "I am a Christian because my parents raised me Christian" doesn't cut it.

So an honest answer isn't sufficient? Personally, I'd accept an honest answer over a bunch of fabricated nonsense any day. The problem is that most advocates of fabricated nonsense rarely recognize it as such, thus making their 'reasoned defense of the faith', anything but.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

So an honest answer isn't sufficient?

That is not what I said.

 

[BCP1928]

God wants you to be prepared to articulate the reason for your faith. "I am a Christian because my parents raised me Christian" doesn't cut it.

You may want it, but what God wants is up to Him.

 

[Ophiolite]

How do you know that?

I don't. That's my entire point.
I would like to say it's been fun, but I refer you to a 1969 hit by the Stones.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

I don't. That's my entire point.
I would like to say it's been fun, but I refer you to a 1969 hit by the Stones.

It appears you don't know anything about atheism either and your opinions on the subject don't matter. But it was interesting talking with you.

 

[partinobodycular]

That is not what I said.

Great. But would you agree that the reasons that Christians give in defense of their beliefs are rarely the same reasons as to why they believe? In the case of the latter "I am a Christian because my parents raised me Christian" might actually be the God's honest truth.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

But would you agree that the reasons that Christians give in defense of their beliefs are rarely the same reasons as to why they believe?

Maybe some, but if asked why they are Christian, they will give you an honest answer. Sometimes that answer is "I dont know." If they do, I would challenge them to do their own research and find a reason for THEIR faith.

 

[BCP1928]

Maybe some, but if asked why they are Christian, they will give you an honest answer. Sometimes that answer is "I dont know." If they do, I would challenge them to do their own research and find a reason for THEIR faith.

If they do have faith I don't see any reason why they should respond to your challenge.