Disturbing and Once Again, Another Grave Error Via the GOC Archbishop

[All4Christ]

I've never seen the site before and don't like the tone in it. However, I didn't first hear this from the Orthodox woman who initially shared it in an FB group, but in an Orthodox women's FB group I am part of. I was alarmed by this and as I said the multiple spoons issue because it questions belief in God. I have many vices, but anger isn't one of them. So, my response doesn't burn or stay with me. But this issue is not helpful. I am part of the GOC, so I feel it affects me greatly. I tend to focus on my own home, so to speak, rather than others, that need work. But also, as a layperson, we should all be concerned about questionable and alarming actions from our clergy. It's what the Church has done since its inception. I don't think it causes discord with other Orthodox traditions/jurisdictions. It's a GOC problem. So, I respectfully disagree.

Having said all of that, I rarely pay much attention to this archbishop or any other one to the point of any type of simmering anger or grudges. I'm thankful I don't hold them. When I hear these things, I share my feelings on it and move on. Thanks, though, for your response and for your concern for me.

If I were GOC, then I would feel like it hit close to home as well. And yes, we should as layperson’s watch out for the integrity of the Church. Prayers for all.

 

[Not David]

ROC Commission: Those with celiac disease, gluten allergy can commune of Blood of Christ

A layperson with such a condition who wishes to receive Communion should inform the priest in advance.

t.co

Priests can get tipsy or drunk from having the gifts, it's silly to say there cannot be any allergic reactions as well.

 

[prodromos]

ROC Commission: Those with celiac disease, gluten allergy can commune of Blood of Christ

A layperson with such a condition who wishes to receive Communion should inform the priest in advance.

t.co

Priests can get tipsy or drunk from having the gifts, it's silly to say there cannot be any allergic reactions as well.

You know of this personally?
The sister of a dear friend has Celiac Sprue, and she receives the Body and Blood of Christ without any symptoms. She cannot take antidoron however.

 

[gzt]

ROC Commission: Those with celiac disease, gluten allergy can commune of Blood of Christ

A layperson with such a condition who wishes to receive Communion should inform the priest in advance.

t.co

Priests can get tipsy or drunk from having the gifts, it's silly to say there cannot be any allergic reactions as well.

Yes, the initial post is quite sensationalist in many ways compared to what even Russian commissions have stated.

 

[Not David]

You know of this personally?
The sister of a dear friend has Celiac Sprue, and she receives the Body and Blood of Christ without any symptoms. She cannot take antidoron however.

About the tipsy/drunk part? Yes, my priest commented about it and a deacon who used to come to serve at our parish got headaches whenever he consumed the gifts.

I believe the story of your friend's sister, that doesn't mean everyone will have the same experience.

 

[Not David]

Yes, the initial post is quite sensationalist in many ways compared to what even Russian commissions have stated.

There is a misconception that the Moscow Church is this "trad" and "based" Church unlike the EP.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I can only speak to my own experience as a priest. while I have absolutely “felt it” after consuming larger chalices, no one with a gluten allergy has ever had an issue from communion (including one of my newly illumined who cannot have antidoron).

 

[rusmeister]

ROC Commission: Those with celiac disease, gluten allergy can commune of Blood of Christ

A layperson with such a condition who wishes to receive Communion should inform the priest in advance.

t.co

Priests can get tipsy or drunk from having the gifts, it's silly to say there cannot be any allergic reactions as well.

I think what people are trying to say is this: the gifts are something that we are mandated to have; they are the Body and Blood of Christ, and a person who receives worthily is generally safe in all of our general experience. Outside of that narrow structure, however, there can be adverse effects, of course. I can see how a person receiving unworthily would not be so protected. I can see how other things like the antidoron are not so mandatory and that we should not tempt God if we know we have a health problem. Also, while it’s more speculative, wouldn’t you agree that a priest should see that the quantity of wine used, etc, is appropriate to his expected congregation? If a priest has an average of, say, 40 people commuting every week, but uses two or more liters/quarts of wine in the preparation, then it stands to reason that there would be a lot left over, and I would think that often, though not always, that would be kind of his fault, wouldn’t you agree? (Here, I speak from a certain degree of ignorance, and experienced priests would be better suited to comment on this.)

So I would carefully say, yes, allergic reactions and intoxication are possible. However, they are highly unlikely for people who are repentant and careful.

 

[seashale76]

So I would carefully say, yes, allergic reactions and intoxication are possible. However, they are highly unlikely for people who are repentant and careful.

 

[ArmyMatt]

the point of the eye roll is what exactly?

 

[seashale76]

the point of the eye roll is what exactly?

So, you agree with him that if one has an allergic reaction or feels the effects of intoxication then it is indicative that one isn't 'repentant or careful'?

 

[ArmyMatt]

So, you agree with him that if one has an allergic reaction or feels the effects of intoxication then it is indicative that one isn't 'repentant or careful'?

as a priest who has given communion to people with a gluten allergy with no issues, yes. that is also what is taught in Seminary.

 

[seashale76]

as a priest who has given communion to people with a gluten allergy with no issues, yes. that is also what is taught in Seminary.

Which seminary was this? Can you recall what source material you were given that taught this? How does what you were taught seem to be at odds with the article posted here regarding the GOA and also the article posted regarding the MP letting people take only the wine?

Edit: I am related to a child with a legitimate gluten allergy who must have an epipen on hand at all times and has been hospitalized numerous times. This is vastly different than gluten intolerance.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Which seminary was this?

St Tikhon’s from professors who were from St Vlad’s and Holy Cross. this is also what I heard from every priest since becoming Orthodox. we also talk to each other a lot and nerd out at OISM events.

Can you recall what source material you were given that taught this?

primarily what St Cyril of Alexandria taught against Nestorius.

How does what you were taught seem to be at odds with the article posted here regarding the GOA and also the article posted regarding the MP letting people take only the wine?

neither are correct. the Church has always taught that Communion is the Body and Blood of the Great Physician and therefore only lack of repentance leads to physical ailments.

Edit: I am related to a child with a legitimate gluten allergy who must have an epipen on hand at all times and has been hospitalized numerous times. This is vastly different than gluten intolerance

Lord have mercy. to that point though, I have given communion to alcoholics with no issues and I know of a SVOTS graduate who was a deacon, consumed an entire chalice, was pulled over at a random traffic stop, and blew a zero on a breathalyzer.

 

[Not David]

I think what people are trying to say is this: the gifts are something that we are mandated to have; they are the Body and Blood of Christ, and a person who receives worthily is generally safe in all of our general experience. Outside of that narrow structure, however, there can be adverse effects, of course. I can see how a person receiving unworthily would not be so protected. I can see how other things like the antidoron are not so mandatory and that we should not tempt God if we know we have a health problem. Also, while it’s more speculative, wouldn’t you agree that a priest should see that the quantity of wine used, etc, is appropriate to his expected congregation? If a priest has an average of, say, 40 people commuting every week, but uses two or more liters/quarts of wine in the preparation, then it stands to reason that there would be a lot left over, and I would think that often, though not always, that would be kind of his fault, wouldn’t you agree? (Here, I speak from a certain degree of ignorance, and experienced priests would be better suited to comment on this.)

So I would carefully say, yes, allergic reactions and intoxication are possible. However, they are highly unlikely for people who are repentant and careful.

Well, there is a reason why both GOA and MP are providing alternatives. If some people are not affected then Glory to God, but I'm not going to tell a priest or deacon who feels alcoholic effects that he is probably unrepentant or careless.

 

[rusmeister]

Well, there is a reason why both GOA and MP are providing alternatives. If some people are not affected then Glory to God, but I'm not going to tell a priest or deacon who feels alcoholic effects that he is probably unrepentant or careless.

This twists what I said, and I admitted that a priest was better qualified to comment on the issue. I did NOT say that a priest who feels “alcoholic effects” is probably unrepentant. I did say that carelessness was not out of bounds, and referred further comment to a priest.
The real issue comes down to this: do you really believe that what you are receiving is the Body and Blood of Christ, or you believe that it is merely bread and wine? If the latter, then you are certainly going to fear receiving when you have such doubts. If you believe that material concerns trump our belief regarding what Communion is, then you have a materialist assumption undercutting your faith. Faith involves taking risks. It involves stepping out onto the water when Christ invites you. it involves choosing to believe that God will provide when you can’t see any way out, and that is exactly where I have been all the time for the past couple of years, struggling between the temptation to unbelief and despair, and the choice to hold on and believe anyway, in spite of the very real material difficulties and danger surrounding me. if you believe that, God does not have the power to protect you from gluten, or alcohol, when you are doing everything as you have been told in obedience, carefully and in repentance,, then you have a faith issue. You have to consciously do what the father of the sick child in the gospel said, and say, “I believe, Lord, help my unbelief!“ You have to believe, even though everything material tells you it’s dangerous.

 

[Not David]

This twists what I said, and I admitted that a priest was better qualified to comment on the issue. I did NOT say that a priest who feels “alcoholic effects” is probably unrepentant. I did say that carelessness was not out of bounds, and referred further comment to a priest.
The real issue comes down to this: do you really believe that what you are receiving is the Body and Blood of Christ, or you believe that it is merely bread and wine? If the latter, then you are certainly going to fear receiving when you have such doubts. If you believe that material concerns trump our belief regarding what Communion is, then you have a materialist assumption undercutting your faith. Faith involves taking risks. It involves stepping out onto the water when Christ invites you. it involves choosing to believe that God will provide when you can’t see any way out, and that is exactly where I have been all the time for the past couple of years, struggling between the temptation to unbelief and despair, and the choice to hold on and believe anyway, in spite of the very real material difficulties and danger surrounding me. if you believe that, God does not have the power to protect you from gluten, or alcohol, when you are doing everything as you have been told in obedience, carefully and in repentance,, then you have a faith issue. You have to consciously do what the father of the sick child in the gospel said, and say, “I believe, Lord, help my unbelief!“ You have to believe, even though everything material tells you it’s dangerous.

I have faith in what the Church recommends. If the bishops, who have the authority to consecrate the gifts, want to find options such as just giving the consecrated wine, who has both the Body & Blood, I have no right to think of them as schismatics or unfaithful.

 

[prodromos]

I have no right to think of them as schismatics or unfaithful.

Rus didn't imply either of those things.

 

[rusmeister]

I have faith in what the Church recommends. If the bishops, who have the authority to consecrate the gifts, want to find options such as just giving the consecrated wine, who has both the Body & Blood, I have no right to think of them as schismatics or unfaithful.

Prodromos is right. What I would say is that individual bishops CAN go wrong, and depart from Tradition.
I don’t trust the current major Patriarchs. I DO trust the Church, over space and time, and the consensus of the fathers, which tells me that bishops can and do go wrong (which allows me to go on believing and even, if I must, attend church under such bishops. And generally speaking, bishops only have authority to tell us to do what is already found in our Tradition. If a bishop suddenly decided that everyone ought to wear a blue sash on a holiday of the Theotokos, he would still not have the authority to make everyone do it.

 

[The Liturgist]

I was extremely angry over Archbishop Elpidophoros's "multiple spoons" blasphemy in 2020 during the covid hysteria. I am again angry and upset over this newest grave error. The core of this is a disbelief in God. ETA: Somebody on FB shared this website. I've never been to it before. The journalist speaks in harsh tones for which I'm not a fan of, but the crux of the issue is addressed.

Abp. Elpidophoros Approves "Food-sensitive" Eucharist

When Accessibility Crosses the Line: A Call for Faithful Integrity in Liturgical Practice

spzh-new.newagelab.com

Thank you for bringing this to attention. The unfortunate reality is that this Archbishop is the same man who declared the Ecumenical Patriarch to be primus sine paribus and not primus inter pares, with the power to revoke autocephaly, and its quite likely he will be the next Constantinipolitan Patriarch.

As Metropolitan of Bursa he also failed to prevent the Metropolis from going from an actual diocese with one parish and fifteen members to a titular diocese, as the sole remaining church was closed, perhaps due to Turkish pressure; to be fair we don’t know if it was his fault or not, due to demographic shifts, but it did happen on his watch.