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New Trump vaccine policy limits access to COVID shots to those 65+ or with demonstrated health issues; likely blocks access to others

Bradskii

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Actually, it is.
No, it isn't. My kids can have one. I can have one. Everyone I know can have one. You just ring up your doctor and make an appointment to discuss it.

Anyway, I had a gutful of these discussions when people were denying the medical advice back when it was a matter of life and death. You still want to complain about some aspect of it? Go for it. I've explained the situation here. I'm not interested in feeding these type of threads any longer.

Over and out.
 
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probinson

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No, it isn't. My kids can have one. I can have one. Everyone I know can have one. You just ring up your doctor and make an appointment to discuss it.

That's pretty much the way it is here in the US as well, despite when anyone will try to tell you.

And no matter how much you may deny the reality, the facts are clear. Australia has different guidelines for those with and without "severe immunocoompromise".

Anyway, I had a gutful of these discussions when people were denying the medical advice back when it was a matter of life and death.

Ironically, the people who keep getting COVID vaccines repeatedly in the absence of evidence are the ones who are really denying the medical advice.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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I'm curious if you find it at all concerning that multiple studies have found that repeated COVID vaccination has been associated with an increased risk of infection. If it were to be clearly demonstrated that repeated COVID vaccination doses resulted in a HIGHER risk of infection, would you still support someone choosing to get the vaccine at their own expense?
I'm not familiar with the studies in question, I am familiar with a few of the studies that suggest that people who get boosted more often are more likely have a positive covid test. (which is different than infection risk)

For instance, the Cleveland Clinic study -- which I've heard people leverage to make claims similar to what you're suggesting, but that study also noted that behavioral components were the most likely culprit for the association.
1 - People may get that "invincible" feeling after getting a dose, and perhaps be less cautious
2 - The kind of person who obsessively gets boosted more often is the same type of person who is almost certainly more likely to take covid tests every time they get the sniffles, as where a person who's "over it" in terms of being worried about covid, probably hasn't taken a covid test in a few years.

(for instance, I can't tell you the last time I've taken a covid test... over the past few years, it's quite possible there was a day during allergy season where I had a stuffy nose and scratchy throat and it was actually covid. Whereas, a person who's still obsessing about it -- the kind of person who's still probably getting boosted twice a year -- is going to race out and get tested)


But, even if we pretend for a moment that's it's 100% concrete fact that a person who gets boosted repeatedly somehow increased their own personal infection risk.

While I wouldn't necessarily "support" them getting repeated boosters, I don't think I'd want to legally block them from getting it either.

There's a lot of activities and choices people make that increase their infection risk and risk of having it be more severe.

Right now, obesity and smoking are at the top of that list. If we're going to focus our regulatory efforts (that restrict choices) somewhere in the name of reducing covid severity, that should be the focus long before we get to "legally block a 30 year old from getting a booster jab because it could increase their risk of mild infection by 2%"
 
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probinson

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I'm not familiar with the studies in question, I am familiar with a few of the studies that suggest that people who get boosted more often are more likely have a positive covid test. (which is different than infection risk)

For instance, the Cleveland Clinic study -- which I've heard people leverage to make claims similar to what you're suggesting, but that study also noted that behavioral components were the most likely culprit for the association.
1 - People may get that "invincible" feeling after getting a dose, and perhaps be less cautious
2 - The kind of person who obsessively gets boosted more often is the same type of person who is almost certainly more likely to take covid tests every time they get the sniffles, as where a person who's "over it" in terms of being worried about covid, probably hasn't taken a covid test in a few years.

Those are both things to consider, and the Cleveland Clinic study did. They said:
The association of increased risk of COVID-19 with more prior vaccine doses was unexpected. A simplistic explanation might be that those who received more doses were more likely to be individuals at higher risk of COVID-19. A small proportion of individuals may have fit this description. However, the majority of participants in this study were young, and all were eligible to have received ≥3 doses of vaccine by the study start date, which they had every opportunity to do. Therefore, those who received <3 doses (46% of individuals in the study) were not ineligible to receive the vaccine but rather chose not to follow the CDC's recommendations on remaining updated with COVID-19 vaccination, and one could reasonably expect these individuals to have been more likely to exhibit risk-taking behavior. Despite this, their risk of acquiring COVID-19 was lower than that that of participants those who received more prior vaccine doses.

People who do not get repeated vaccination doses are more likely to exhibit riskier behavior, and yet they still had fewer infections. People who are getting repeatedly vaccinated with boosters in perpetuity exhibit more cautious behavior.

The chart they included in the study is striking. There is a perfect correlation between an increased number of vaccine doses and an increased number of infections (although your point about positive COVID tests is valid). No matter how you try to explain this, this is the POLAR OPPOSITE of what one would expect to see from any "effective" intervention.

Screenshot 2025-03-27 at 5.57.09 PM-2.png


But beyond that Cleveland Clinic study (which also referenced three other studies that also found a correlation between an increased number of doses and increased infections), a more recent study found the same thing:

Repeated COVID-19 mRNA vaccinations increase SARS-CoV-2 IgG4 antibodies, indicating extensive IgG class switching following the first booster dose. This shift in IgG subclasses raises concerns due to the limited ability of IgG4 to mediate Fc-dependent effector functions.

...

Elevated IgG4 levels and higher ratios of non-cytophilic to cytophilic antibodies after booster vaccination were significantly associated with an increased risk of breakthrough infections (IgG4 HR[10-fold increase]=1.8, 95% CI=1.2–2.7; non-cytophilic to cytophilic ratio HR[10-fold increase]=1.5, 95% CI=1.1–1.9). Moreover, an increased non-cytophilic to cytophilic antibody ratio correlated with reduced functionality, including neutralization.

...​

These findings suggest a potential association between IgG4 induction by mRNA vaccination and a higher risk of breakthrough infection, warranting further investigation into vaccination strategies to ensure sustained protection.

(for instance, I can't tell you the last time I've taken a covid test... over the past few years, it's quite possible there was a day during allergy season where I had a stuffy nose and scratchy throat and it was actually covid. Whereas, a person who's still obsessing about it -- the kind of person who's still probably getting boosted twice a year -- is going to race out and get tested)

This is absolutely a valid point. I've had exactly one COVID test in my life, as opposed to the hypochondriacs that were testing themselves multiple times daily.

But, even if we pretend for a moment that's it's 100% concrete fact that a person who gets boosted repeatedly somehow increased their own personal infection risk.

While I wouldn't necessarily "support" them getting repeated boosters, I don't think I'd want to legally block them from getting it either.

I think I would be more concerned why our health regulatory agencies, who are tasked with ensuring drugs and vaccines are both safe and effective, would continue to approve and recommend something that was shown to increase someone's risk. I think it speaks to people's inability to adapt to new information. There is a group of people who have determined that anything called a "vaccine" is automatically "safe and effective", and they are unable to process the idea that there could be harms associated. I'm convinced that if there were a study that showed an irrefutable link between COVID vaccination and increased death, there would still be people who would be saying "I should be able to pay my own money if I really want it!"

There's a lot of activities and choices people make that increase their infection risk and risk of having it be more severe.

Right now, obesity and smoking are at the top of that list. If we're going to focus our regulatory efforts (that restrict choices) somewhere in the name of reducing covid severity, that should be the focus long before we get to "legally block a 30 year old from getting a booster jab because it could increase their risk of mild infection by 2%"

I think that this new policy is primarily about attempting to restore trust in regulatory agencies. It's a baby step in the right direction.

Somewhere along the way, people decided that increased antibodies in eight mice was a sufficient correlate to determine if a vaccine would provide protection to every human being, regardless of age. That was always antithetical to the evidence-based medicine and the scientific method, and the result has been a disastrous and concerning loss of confidence not only in COVID vaccines, but in others as well.
 
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ThatRobGuy

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People who do not get repeated vaccination doses are the ones that are more likely to exhibit riskier behavior, and yet they still had fewer infections. People who are getting repeatedly vaccinated with boosters in perpetuity are the ones that exhibit more cautious behavior.

The chart they included in the study is striking. There is a perfect correlation between an increased number of vaccine doses and an increased number of infections (although your point about positive COVID tests is valid). No matter how you try to explain this, this is the POLAR OPPOSITE of what one would expect to see from any "effective" intervention.

Riskier over the long haul perhaps, but not during certain concentrated times.

The aspect I was referring to would be people like my one cousin.

She would stay locked away in her apartment and get all of her food delivered, wouldn't go to any holiday gatherings, etc...

But then after a booster dose, would feel "brave enough" go out "into the wild" and mingle a bit in those 2-3 months to follow.


Given that we know natural immunity is more durable than a bivalent booster dose, there are the people who only venture for a few months at a time after a booster and spend the rest of the time in hiding, meanwhile, the rest of us who have moved on with life, have probably had 3-4 natural covid infections at this point and therefore have more durable immunity than the type of person who goes on the 3-4 month cycles of "boost & go out for a bit, and then back to hiding"
 
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BCP1928

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Riskier over the long haul perhaps, but not during certain concentrated times.

The aspect I was referring to would be people like my one cousin.

She would stay locked away in her apartment and get all of her food delivered, wouldn't go to any holiday gatherings, etc...

But then after a booster dose, would feel "brave enough" go out "into the wild" and mingle a bit in those 2-3 months to follow.


Given that we know natural immunity is more durable than a bivalent booster dose, there are the people who only venture for a few months at a time after a booster and spend the rest of the time in hiding, meanwhile, the rest of us who have moved on with life, have probably had 3-4 natural covid infections at this point and therefore have more durable immunity than the type of person who goes on the 3-4 month cycles of "boost & go out for a bit, and then back to hiding"
Yes, those are all good arguments, I'm sure. But it makes no difference to the Trump administration so long as people who want it have to pay big Pharma the $200 for the shot themselves. Can't afford it? Well, that serves you right for being poor. The flu shot will be next, though they are only about $60.
 
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probinson

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Riskier over the long haul perhaps, but not during certain concentrated times.

The aspect I was referring to would be people like my one cousin.

She would stay locked away in her apartment and get all of her food delivered, wouldn't go to any holiday gatherings, etc...

But then after a booster dose, would feel "brave enough" go out "into the wild" and mingle a bit in those 2-3 months to follow.

I know people who are still getting their vaccines, still masking in public, and keep getting reinfected. The people I know who are still getting their COVID vaccines are the ones that are being infinitely more cautious. So my anecdotal experience is quite different than yours.

Given that we know natural immunity is more durable than a bivalent booster dose,

Boy, there's something you couldn't say in polite company a few years ago!

there are the people who only venture for a few months at a time after a booster and spend the rest of the time in hiding, meanwhile, the rest of us who have moved on with life, have probably had 3-4 natural covid infections at this point and therefore have more durable immunity than the type of person who goes on the 3-4 month cycles of "boost & go out for a bit, and then back to hiding"

Worse, there could be some immune imprinting occurring from those repeated vaccinations that is making them more susceptible to infection. So not only is their protection not as durable, they might actually be increasing their risk of infection in the first place.

Of course, big pharmaceutical companies don't want to run this study. I mean, why would they risk a result that would harm their sales? So I'm not holding my breath for anyone to provide any real data or answers to these questions.
 
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probinson

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Yes, those are all good arguments, I'm sure. But it makes no difference to the Trump administration so long as people who want it have to pay big Pharma the $200 for the shot themselves. Can't afford it? Well, that serves you right for being poor. The flu shot will be next, though they are only about $60.

Do you object to the new policy of requiring evidence that the vaccines demonstrate efficacy in the populations they are recommended?
 
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BCP1928

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Do you object to the new policy of requiring evidence that the vaccines demonstrate efficacy in the populations they are recommended?
Sure. Why should I knock down your straw man for you?
 
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probinson

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You could always say it politely--MAGA has trouble with that part.

I'm not sure why you're trying so hard to make this political.

The science shows that previous infection confers better protection than the vaccine. Of course, that fact was harmful to vaccine uptake numbers, so it was denied by public health agencies, who recommended, with no evidence, that one should get vaccinated anyway even if they already had durable protection from previous infection. To really drive home the point, they downplayed the efficacy of previous infection.

The difference today is, you can say that without being called a conspiracy theorist, at least by most people.
 
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probinson

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Sure. Why should I knock down your straw man for you?

What straw man? Do you know what "evidence" has been used to approve COVID boosters up until now? I'm going to guess no, as your preferred way of engaging in this conversation seems to be snarky comments about MAGA, which has nothing at all to do with this move towards evidence based approvals.

You really should watch the short video the FDA put out that I posted earlier. Then tell me why you disagree with in the new policy. But I won't hold my breath.
 
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BCP1928

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I'm not sure why you're trying so hard to make this political.

The science shows that previous infection confers better protection than the vaccine. Of course, that fact was harmful to vaccine uptake numbers, so it was denied by public health agencies, who recommended, with no evidence, that one should get vaccinated anyway even if they already had durable protection from previous infection.

The difference today is, you can say that without being called a conspiracy theorist, at least by most people.
I'm not. But I observe that you are.
 
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probinson

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I'm not. But I observe that you are.

Sure you are. You keep making vacuous comments about "the right" and MAGA while I'm trying to talk about evidence and scientific studies. I genuinely have no idea why.

I would love nothing more than to have an objective discussion on the importance of this topic and its impact on trust in public health, but again, I won't hold my breath.
 
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probinson

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This is from the paper in the New England Journal I posted earlier in the thread.

For all healthy persons — those with no risk factors for severe Covid-19 — between the ages of 6 months and 64 years, the FDA anticipates the need for randomized, controlled trial data evaluating clinical outcomes before Biologics License Applications can be granted. Insofar as possible, when approving a Covid-19 vaccine for high-risk groups, the FDA will encourage manufacturers to conduct randomized, controlled trials in the population of healthy adults as part of their postmarketing commitment.
...
We simply don’t know whether a healthy 52-year-old woman with a normal BMI who has had Covid-19 three times and has received six previous doses of a Covid-19 vaccine will benefit from the seventh dose. This policy will compel much-needed evidence generation
Can someone explain why you think this is not a good thing?
 
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BCP1928

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Sure you are. You keep making vacuous comments about "the right" and MAGA while I'm trying to talk about evidence and scientific studies. I genuinely have no idea why.

I would love nothing more than to have an objective discussion on the importance of this topic and its impact on trust in public health, but again, I won't hold my breath.
Yes, you are attempting to use science-based arguments to support your political position and you blame the unwillingness of your opponents to bow to your political position as politically motivated. It's as good as a play.
 
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probinson

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Yes, you are attempting to use science-based arguments to support your political position and you blame the unwillingness of your opponents to bow to your political position as politically motivated. It's as good as a play.

:rolleyes:

Let me try one last time...

Do you agree with the new FDA policy and the justifications given for it? If not, why not?

For all healthy persons — those with no risk factors for severe Covid-19 — between the ages of 6 months and 64 years, the FDA anticipates the need for randomized, controlled trial data evaluating clinical outcomes before Biologics License Applications can be granted. Insofar as possible, when approving a Covid-19 vaccine for high-risk groups, the FDA will encourage manufacturers to conduct randomized, controlled trials in the population of healthy adults as part of their postmarketing commitment.
...
We simply don’t know whether a healthy 52-year-old woman with a normal BMI who has had Covid-19 three times and has received six previous doses of a Covid-19 vaccine will benefit from the seventh dose. This policy will compel much-needed evidence generation
 
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BCP1928

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This is from the paper in the New England Journal I posted earlier in the thread.

For all healthy persons — those with no risk factors for severe Covid-19 — between the ages of 6 months and 64 years, the FDA anticipates the need for randomized, controlled trial data evaluating clinical outcomes before Biologics License Applications can be granted. Insofar as possible, when approving a Covid-19 vaccine for high-risk groups, the FDA will encourage manufacturers to conduct randomized, controlled trials in the population of healthy adults as part of their postmarketing commitment.
...
We simply don’t know whether a healthy 52-year-old woman with a normal BMI who has had Covid-19 three times and has received six previous doses of a Covid-19 vaccine will benefit from the seventh dose. This policy will compel much-needed evidence generation
Can someone explain why you think this is not a good thing?
I don't know. You'll have to find somebody who thinks it's a bad thing and then ask them.
 
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