Roman Catholic Prayer to Mary - Is it scriptural?

[jas3]

How does your personal experience validate a practice the majority oppose?

Ironically, the majority - both today and of Christians historically - take the position @The Liturgist does on Mariology, not the one favored by modern Evangelicals, even though the latter is overrepresented on English-language internet forums.

 

[BobRyan]

How does your personal experience validate a practice the majority oppose?

if by "majority" you mean majority of Christian groups/denominations then you are right.

But if by "majority" you mean "majority of individuals" then we are confronted with how membership numbers are counted. One way of counting them has the Catholic Church at 1.4 Billion. (the problem with that method is that millions that are members of other churches but were at one time baptized as an infant - as Catholic -- would be counted both as a Catholic and also as some other denomination member)

 

[jas3]

Some of the wording comes from an Angel's statement in Luke - but Luke has no examples of any of Mary's contemporaries using such titles for her and no case where she is appealed to "to change things" via a blessing or miracle or intercession.

And no examples of them praying to those who have died.

And we have no examples of prayer to the Holy Spirit, but Protestants have no problem with that. Our Lord also instructed the Apostles to pray to the Father, not to Him, even though St. Stephen thought it was appropriate at the moment of his martyrdom.

Apparently the Apostles didn't share the nuda scriptura philosophy that has become popular among some Protestants today, or we would expect to find them teaching it to their contemporaries.

 

[BobRyan]

And we have no examples of prayer to the Holy Spirit,

Agreed - but we are told that He is God and that God alone can be prayed to / worshiped.

Ananias and Sapphirah - lied to Holy Spirit which means they in fact lied to God.

Acts 5:
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.

Our Lord also instructed the Apostles to pray to the Father, not to Him

He is stated to be the "one Mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5 -- no other human has that role the NT

1 John 2:1 'If anyone sins - we have an Advocate with the Father -- Jesus Christ THE Righteous"

, even though St. Stephen thought it was appropriate at the moment of his martyrdom.

Indeed we have a Bible example of someone praying to Jesus.
And of course in Heb 8 we are told that God who is speaking / thundering at Sinai is in fact Jesus.

Apparently the Apostles didn't share the nuda scriptura philosophy

Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF THOSE THINGS (taught by the Apostle Paul) were SO"

So yes -- scripture is true and also 2+2 = 4 is true.

But all doctrine is to be tested by scripture to see if it is so , to see if contradicts the Word of God or agrees with it.

that has become popular among some Protestants today, or we would expect to find them teaching it to their contemporaries.

I agree that sometimes protestants don't state that sola-scriptura testing doctrine accurately.

 

[bèlla]

if by "majority" you mean majority of Christian groups/denominations then you are right.

That’s the one.

~bella

 

[BobRyan]

If someone were to introduce a new teaching that we are supposed to pray to our departed rabbits - we would all agree that such a thing is not found in all of scripture and is in fact in contradiction with scripture.

That same simple concept is being applied with other things not found in scripture.

But we don't go so far to say that "Orange trees don't exist because no orange trees are mentioned in the Bible"

 

[bèlla]

And we have no examples of prayer to the Holy Spirit, but Protestants have no problem with that. Our Lord also instructed the Apostles to pray to the Father, not to Him, even though St. Stephen thought it was appropriate at the moment of his martyrdom.

I pray to the Father in Christ’s name. If others do otherwise that’s their choice much like I said about Mary. I have no interest in policing anyone in their walk with the Lord. That’s between you and God. Nor am I required to agree with anyone‘s beliefs or practices.

~bella

 

[concretecamper]

How does your personal experience validate a practice the majority oppose?

Actually, the vast minority of Christians oppose veneration of The Mother of God and praying to the Church triumphant.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, the vast minority of Christians oppose veneration of The Mother of God and praying to the Church triumphant.

A majority of Christian denominations oppose it - but individual adherents are many for the Catholic affirmation of it.

 

[RileyG]

"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

1. Where is the example of someone saying it in Scripture?
2. When was it first used as an example of prayer.

Please - no disparaging remarks about our Roman Catholic family.

Yes. Luke chapter 1.

Blessings

 

[RileyG]

A majority of Christian denominations oppose it - but individual adherents are many for the Catholic affirmation of it.

Don't forget the Orthodox Church, Assyrian Church of the East, Ancient Church of the East, as well as some Anglicans, Episcopalians, and Lutherans and/or Methodists. They all venerate the saints and ask for their intercession or pray for the departed.

 

[RileyG]

You cannot be serious with this argument.

Jesus and Holy Spirit are God, Mary is not.

Although, it is what Catholics make out of her. Calling her our Lady, Queen of Heaven (seriously this does not raise a huge red flag?), calling her sinless, built stuatutes of her, pray to her, call her mediator between man and Jesus. And other blasphemies.

No one is stating Mary is God. As regarding Queen of Heaven, look at the ancient Davidic monarchy. Jesus is the New David and sits as King of Kings forever. The Queen mother, the Virgin Mary, is the new Queen.

Blessings

And be careful, calling it blasphemous can be consider a false to Catholics and Orthodox Christians who venerate her.

 

[jas3]

Agreed - but we are told that He is God and that God alone can be prayed to / worshiped.

And that's fine reasoning, it's just not stated explicitly in Scripture.

He is stated to be the "one Mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5 -- no other human has that role the NT

Agreed, but that word "mediator" doesn't mean other Christians can't intercede for us in prayer; St. Paul says as much in verses 1-4.

A majority of Christian denominations oppose it - but individual adherents are many for the Catholic affirmation of it.

But "number of denominations" as a metric is meaningless, and I find it hard to believe that it was proposed seriously. It would only be useful if a proclivity to schism were an indicator of fidelity to the Christian faith, but in fact the opposite is true, since we are repeatedly warned against the evil of schism.

 

[RileyG]

It seems that in both cases it is a conversation between two individuals. In both cases there was a degree of veneration for Mary, a deep respect, however, neither of them were delivering a prayer which was commonly known at that time as worshipping.
Blessings

Worshipping= offering a sacrifice

Simple prayer (ask) is NOT the same as worship.

Blessings

 

[RileyG]

And that's fine reasoning, it's just not stated explicitly in Scripture.
Agreed, but that word "mediator" doesn't mean other Christians can't intercede for us in prayer; St. Paul says as much in verses 1-4.
But "number of denominations" as a metric is meaningless, and I find it hard to believe that it was proposed seriously. It would only be useful if a proclivity to schism were an indicator of fidelity to the Christian faith, but in fact the opposite is true, since we are repeatedly warned against the evil of schism.

Exactly! Christians intercede for one another all the time. It doesn't mean simple lay folk are taking the place of Christ. We are commended to pray for one another, and those in heaven are very much alive and can pray for us.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Yes. Luke chapter 1.

Blessings

No - only part of the total prayer is in Luke chapter 1 as already shown a number of times.

 

[RileyG]

No - only part of the total prayer is in Luke chapter 1 as already shown a number of times.

Well..the last part just asks for her prayers, which is common in liturgical Churches. The first part- known as the pre-Trenten Hail Mary, is entirely from Luke 1.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Well..the last part just asks for her prayers, which is common in liturgical Churches. The first part- known as the pre-Trenten Hail Mary, is entirely from Luke 1.

Right and that was not used in the church for hundreds of years after her death.

3. The First Part of the Hail Mary (6th Century)​

The first part of the prayer—"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee"—emerges in this period. The phrase “Ave Maria” was used in Christian liturgies, especially in the East, and gradually incorporated into prayers.

4. The Second Part: "Blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb" (12th Century)​

By the 12th century, the second line of the prayer, “Blessed is the fruit of thy womb,” became commonly used, inspired by the Gospel of Luke. This was a natural extension of Mary’s praise, acknowledging the significance of Jesus, her son.

5. The Final Part: "Holy Mary, Mother of God" (16th Century)​

The final line, "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death," was added later. This addition became standardized in the 16th century, particularly after the Council of Trent (1545–1563), which sought to clarify and define Catholic doctrine in the wake of the Protestant Reformation.

 

[RileyG]

Right and that was not used in the church for hundreds of years after her death.

3. The First Part of the Hail Mary (6th Century)​

The first part of the prayer—"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee"—emerges in this period. The phrase “Ave Maria” was used in Christian liturgies, especially in the East, and gradually incorporated into prayers.

4. The Second Part: "Blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb" (12th Century)​

By the 12th century, the second line of the prayer, “Blessed is the fruit of thy womb,” became commonly used, inspired by the Gospel of Luke. This was a natural extension of Mary’s praise, acknowledging the significance of Jesus, her son.

5. The Final Part: "Holy Mary, Mother of God" (16th Century)​

The final line, "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death," was added later. This addition became standardized in the 16th century, particularly after the Council of Trent (1545–1563), which sought to clarify and define Catholic doctrine in the wake of the Protestant Reformation.

Yes...and I have no problem with it, mainly because I'm a liturgical Christian.

No arguments from me, whatsoever.

Blessings

 

[NextLevel]

I wonder how many millions of times this same exact debate has occurred on the internet.