Roman Catholic Prayer to Mary - Is it scriptural?

[Maria Billingsley]

This is what I have found in a brief search:

The Hail Mary prayer, as we know it today, evolved over several centuries. It has roots in early Christian prayers, but its form gradually developed. Here’s a rough timeline of its history:

1. The Biblical Foundation (1st Century)​

The prayer is based on two key Bible verses:

• Luke 1:28 – "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee" (Gabriel's greeting to Mary at the Annunciation).
• Luke 1:42 – "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" (Elizabeth's greeting to Mary at the Visitation).

2. Early Christian Prayers (3rd-4th Century)​

Christians began using various prayers of praise to Mary, but they were not yet structured in the form of the Hail Mary. For example, the title Ave Maria (Hail Mary in Latin) was used in the early centuries, but it was often a greeting or part of a longer prayer.

3. The First Part of the Hail Mary (6th Century)​

The first part of the prayer—"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee"—emerges in this period. The phrase “Ave Maria” was used in Christian liturgies, especially in the East, and gradually incorporated into prayers.

4. The Second Part: "Blessed is the Fruit of Thy Womb" (12th Century)​

By the 12th century, the second line of the prayer, “Blessed is the fruit of thy womb,” became commonly used, inspired by the Gospel of Luke. This was a natural extension of Mary’s praise, acknowledging the significance of Jesus, her son.

5. The Final Part: "Holy Mary, Mother of God" (16th Century)​

The final line, "Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death," was added later. This addition became standardized in the 16th century, particularly after the Council of Trent (1545–1563), which sought to clarify and define Catholic doctrine in the wake of the Protestant Reformation.

6. Final Form​

By the 16th century, the Hail Mary prayer took its modern form:


This prayer became a central part of Catholic devotion and has remained largely unchanged since then.

So, the Hail Mary prayer was first used as a prayer in a recognizable form around the 16th century, although its elements had been in use for centuries before that.

It seems that in both cases it is a conversation between two individuals. In both cases there was a degree of veneration for Mary, a deep respect, however, neither of them were delivering a prayer which was commonly known at that time as worshipping.
Blessings

 

[concretecamper]

Yes the angel does say that to Mary - but no one else does in the entire NT

So since God sent an Angel with the command to greet Mary in this manner, it somehow isn't important because it only happened once?

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 1:28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee:

Yes the angel does say that to Mary - but no one else does in the entire NT

1:42 And she cried out with a loud voice and said: Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
1:43 And whence is this to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

"Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death Amen" is just a petition similar to asking anyone to pray for them.

There is no case OT or NT where someone prays to a deceased person "at the hour of death".

So since God sent an Angel with the command to greet Mary in this manner, it somehow isn't important because it only happened once?

"happened once" is not the point in my post.

1. No living person on Earth ever greeted her that way - but since the angel at least said part of what is quoted - I consider that quote just fine.
2. But we have zero references to someone addressing dead people in the NT , making a request of them etc .

 

[BobRyan]

Bottom line -
Should we contact the dead on behalf of the living according to the Bible??

Isaiah 8
19 And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

One has to consider why it is there are no cases of contacting the dead in NT

 

[concretecamper]

Yes the angel does say that to Mary - but no one else does in the entire NT

There is no case OT or NT where someone prays to a deceased person "at the hour of death".

"happened once" is not the point in my post.

1. No living person on Earth ever greeted her that way - but since the angel at least said part of what is quoted - I consider that quote just fine.
2. But we have zero references to someone addressing dead people in the NT , making a request of them etc .

So we immitate the things of Heaven rather than the things of man and somehow that's a bad thing. Good grief, keep going, the hole you're digging yourself in is getting bigger.

 

[BobRyan]

Oh dear, where does holy scripture say that Jesus or the Holy Spirit can hear prayers? Honestly, why is it that Protestants couch their doubts and arguments in the language of atheism?

We all agree with the "One God" Deut 6:4 "in three persons" Matt 28:19 teaching of the Bible.

We do not place anyone else in that "God" box

 

[Jerry N.]

Not exclusively. What is more, he also did not object to prayers addressed to Him. We must remember that Jesus Christ is God.

As for the Hail Mary, the initial part of it, which is used as the Theotokion in Orthodox hymns and by Martin Luther as my Lutheran friend @MarkRohfrietsch will confirm, is completely scriptural. If St. Gabriel the Archangel says to the Mother of God “Blessed art Thou among women”, then I will do so.

Additionally, intercessory prayer to the saints, while not practiced by most Lutherans, is practiced by the Orthodox, Catholics and many Anglicans.

I strongly reccommend to all Christians to ask for the intercessions of the Theotokos while praying and to develop a relationship with Our Lady as this is beneficial in deepening our relationship with Christ our True God - the two are not mutually exclusive, but actually, rather, the more one loves the Blessed Virgin Mary, the more one will find oneself loving to, depending on and turning to Christ in times of crisis, in my experience.

The thing I am most thankful for since I converted to Orthodoxy, has been the development of my relationship with the Mother of God, and I believe many converts to Roman Catholicism and High Church Anglicanism have reported the same very positive experience. If you love a man who loves his mother, you should love his mother also, and Jesus Christ, the God-man who saves us from sin, did love His mother infinitely, and so his mother, while not worshipped, is the subject of hyperdoulia, extreme veneration, being venerated more than the other Saints or the Holy Cross.

However, Orthodox and Roman Catholics (and traditional Anglo Catholics) reserve worship for God, worshipping HIm in the Trinity, the Unity of the three persons of the Holy, Consubstantial and Life Giving Trinity, for God is alone worthy of adoration and worship (latria). We venerate (doulia) however those who have been saved in Christ as well as members of our family and the Holy Cross and the Holy Icons and the relics of the saints, which despite the inclination of some to scoff at this, do in fact posess actual miraculous properties, just as our monastics possess the gifts of the Holy Spirit that Pentecostals and Charismatics are interested in. Likewise, relics in the possession of Roman Catholics, whether of Western saints from before the Schism or of Eastern saints whose relics were expropriated, and perhaps of post-schism Roman Catholic saints, whose existence I regard as likely* have not ceased to be miraculous.

* One important ecumenical product must be the development of a martyrology or synaxarion that incorporates those from the Western Church who, given the reunification of parts of the Western Church with Orthodoxy, can be venerated now, and additionally those who can be venerated once communion is restored between the Roman and Orthodox churches. Fortunately, Anglicans have already developed a Protestant martyrology or synaxarion which includes such important Protestant martyrs and saints as St. Charles I of England and St. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and indeed the Orthodox of the Czech Lands and Slovakia officially venerate St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague as martyrs, despite their association with Protestantism due to the subsequent history of the Unitas Fratrum, although from our perspective the movement was initially an attempt to restore Orthodox liturgical practices such as communion in both species and vernacular liturgy, which had been enjoyed by the Slavic people in the Czech Lands and Slovakia before Austria conquered them in the year 1200 and converted them to the Roman Rite (which would later be prohibited by the RCC, which would prohibit converting Byzantine Rite Christians to the Roman Rite under such conditions, particularly following the Union of Brest and the formation of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, which marked the beginning of modern Eastern Catholicism as we now know it).

I’m not Catholic and don’t pray to Mary; however, my Catholic friends used to talk about Mary being Co-Redeemer, but I never understood what it meant. You seem knowledgeable, and I’m not going to argue with your faith, but could you tell me what they meant?

 

[Valletta]

You cannot be serious with this argument.

Jesus and Holy Spirit are God, Mary is not.

Although, it is what Catholics make out of her. Calling her our Lady, Queen of Heaven (seriously this does not raise a huge red flag?), calling her sinless, built stuatutes of her, pray to her, call her mediator between man and Jesus. And other blasphemies.

It's a serious argument. There are a number of people who insist something must be specifically stated in the Bible except for whatever they believe is OK. It is Catholic understanding of the Word of God that saints intercede for us, they pray for us, and that God allows the saints to hear our prayers. Of course all of those prayers do go to God. As to the title of the queen, beginning with the mother of Solomon all mothers of the king in the Davidic kingdom are spoken of as queens in Holy Scripture. Some would deny Mary the title of the queen, as if Jesus somehow is not a worthy Davidic king. If you study the Bible you will see the mother of Jesus is seen wearing a crown in Revelation.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Luke 1:28 and following, "And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women." Luk 1:28 DRB

Why did you not recognise it from saint Luke's gospel?

Yes the first line was in Luke - how about the rest? Please read the OP.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Oh dear, where does holy scripture say that Jesus or the Holy Spirit can hear prayers? Honestly, why is it that Protestants couch their doubts and arguments in the language of atheism?

John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you [a]ask anything in My name, I will do it.

1 John 4:6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us.

1 John 5:4 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

How do you not know this?

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

 

[The Liturgist]

I’m not Catholic and don’t pray to Mary; however, my Catholic friends used to talk about Mary being Co-Redeemer, but I never understood what it meant. You seem knowledgeable, and I’m not going to argue with your faith, but could you tell me what they meant?

The Orthodox and most Roman Catholics reject the idea that the Blessed Virgin Mary is Co-Redemptrix. Your friends may have been influenced by a supposed Marian apparition, which the Vatican, unlike other Marian apparitions, some of which even the Orthodox would regard as credible (since we certainly have experienced these), declared “unworthy of belief”, in which a Dutch lady known as Ida Peerdeman experienced a visit from an entity claiming to be “the lady who was once Mary” who demanded that the Church add a “Fifth Dogma” ex cathedra declaring the doctrine of St. Mary as “co-redemptrix”, which poses serious theological problems and in my opinion resembles the practices of an early sect identified by St. Epiphanios of Cyprus in the Fourth Century and also mentioned by St. John of Damascus in the Eighth century that worshipped St. Mary, which is heretical, since worship is due to God alone, called the Collyridians; St. Epiphanios contrasted this sect with another called the Antidicomarians which refused to venerate Our Lady and denied her perpetual Virginity, which the leading Protestant theologians including Martin Luther, John Wesley, Thomas Cranmer and even Johh Calvin accepted as a matter of fact, so that prior to the 19th century only a small number of Anabaptists and other Radical Reformation groups rejected this doctrine.

At any rate, since the entity in question called itself “the lady who was once Mary” and also made threatening gestures at Ida Peerdeman, we can conclude if it was an actual experience that the incident was highly discordant with all Marian appearances declared worthy of belief by the Vatican, such as those at Lourdes and Fatima, as well as those also accepted by Anglicans and/or Orthodox such as Our Lady of Walsingham, since the entity did not identify as Mary, the Theotokos, but rather by a strange and unusual title, and demanded to be referred to by another title which if adopted would invite actual worship, which is contrary to the Roman Catholic faith, and since the entity engaged in threatening behavior, which is unheard of, those who approach the incident critically regard it as an imposter. Pope Benedict XVI, memory eternal, was opposed to this and to the equally unusual but more popular apparition at Medjugorje. However the liberal bishop of Amsterdam took a different view, promoting the idea of “Our Lady of Amsterdam”, and there is a group that continues to campaign, thus far unsuccessfully, for the Pope to declare the Theotokos “Co-Redemptrix.”

In the Orthodox Church if a group of people campaigned for the church to engage in heresy in an organized way they would risk being excommunicated for heresy, which was the response of ROCOR and the Moscow Patriarchate in the 1930s to a heretical theological and philosophical movement known as Sophianism if I recall; it was organized by St. Pavel Florensky (who is venerated as a hieromartyr not because of his errant theology, because the communists killed him for his Christian faith before his views were classified as a theological error; he died in a state of obedience to the Church and in the peace of the church), and the philosopher and later Archpriest Sergei Bulgakov of the liberal part of the Parisienne expatriate community (as opposed to the more traditionalist faction under ROCOR; the liberal faction ironically wound up mostly joining the MP after the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople attempted to Hellenize their parishes, which was particularly misguided since they were the only Russian Orthodox Christians who were on good terms with the Ecumenical Patriarch at that point, and he alienated them for no reason, but I digress).

 

[The Liturgist]

John 14:12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. 13 And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you [a]ask anything in My name, I will do it.

1 John 4:6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us.

1 John 5:4 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him.

How do you not know this?

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

None of these verses preclude us seeking the intercession of the departed, which indeed is a sign of faith in the redemptive power of Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ and in His intercessions for us, because those who He has saved have put on Christ and have become through Theosis, by grace, what He is by nature, and thus to seek their intercession and venerate them is to seek the mediation and offer worship to Christ our God.

Christ our True God is definitely our sole Redeemer, our Mediator, Advocate and Judge, which is good, because it is better to be judged by your advocate than by the opposing counsel as is the case in some systems of civil law where the offices of the Judge and Prosecutor are combined, and the Father, being infinitely merciful, sent His only begotten Son in order to save sinners like us and enable our salvation and theosis, which definitely happened in the case of the Blessed Virgin Mary, as evinced by the fact that her body was, like that of the Holy Prophets Moses and Elias taken up to Heaven (that we have no bodily relics of her, whereas we do for nearly everyone else of import, in some cases very important relics, such as the head of St. John the Baptist, further attests to her bodily assumption) which is why it is meet and right that Roman Catholics along with the Orthodox ask for her intercession.

 

[Jerry N.]

The Orthodox and most Roman Catholics reject the idea that the Blessed Virgin Mary is Co-Redemptrix. Your friends may have been influenced by a supposed Marian apparition, which the Vatican, unlike other Marian apparitions, some of which even the Orthodox would regard as credible (since we certainly have experienced these), declared “unworthy of belief”, in which a Dutch lady known as Ida Peerdeman experienced a visit from an entity claiming to be “the lady who was once Mary” who demanded that the Church add a “Fifth Dogma” ex cathedra declaring the doctrine of St. Mary as “co-redemptrix”, which poses serious theological problems and in my opinion resembles the practices of an early sect identified by St. Epiphanios of Cyprus in the Fourth Century and also mentioned by St. John of Damascus in the Eighth century that worshipped St. Mary, which is heretical, since worship is due to God alone, called the Collyridians; St. Epiphanios contrasted this sect with another called the Antidicomarians which refused to venerate Our Lady and denied her perpetual Virginity, which the leading Protestant theologians including Martin Luther, John Wesley, Thomas Cranmer and even Johh Calvin accepted as a matter of fact, so that prior to the 19th century only a small number of Anabaptists and other Radical Reformation groups rejected this doctrine.

At any rate, since the entity in question called itself “the lady who was once Mary” and also made threatening gestures at Ida Peerdeman, we can conclude if it was an actual experience that the incident was highly discordant with all Marian appearances declared worthy of belief by the Vatican, such as those at Lourdes and Fatima, as well as those also accepted by Anglicans and/or Orthodox such as Our Lady of Walsingham, since the entity did not identify as Mary, the Theotokos, but rather by a strange and unusual title, and demanded to be referred to by another title which if adopted would invite actual worship, which is contrary to the Roman Catholic faith, and since the entity engaged in threatening behavior, which is unheard of, those who approach the incident critically regard it as an imposter. Pope Benedict XVI, memory eternal, was opposed to this and to the equally unusual but more popular apparition at Medjugorje. However the liberal bishop of Amsterdam took a different view, promoting the idea of “Our Lady of Amsterdam”, and there is a group that continues to campaign, thus far unsuccessfully, for the Pope to declare the Theotokos “Co-Redemptrix.”

In the Orthodox Church if a group of people campaigned for the church to engage in heresy in an organized way they would risk being excommunicated for heresy, which was the response of ROCOR and the Moscow Patriarchate in the 1930s to a heretical theological and philosophical movement known as Sophianism if I recall; it was organized by St. Pavel Florensky (who is venerated as a hieromartyr not because of his errant theology, because the communists killed him for his Christian faith before his views were classified as a theological error; he died in a state of obedience to the Church and in the peace of the church), and the philosopher and later Archpriest Sergei Bulgakov of the liberal part of the Parisienne expatriate community (as opposed to the more traditionalist faction under ROCOR; the liberal faction ironically wound up mostly joining the MP after the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople attempted to Hellenize their parishes, which was particularly misguided since they were the only Russian Orthodox Christians who were on good terms with the Ecumenical Patriarch at that point, and he alienated them for no reason, but I digress).

Thank you very much. It took you some time and effort, and I understand what your wrote. My friends were of the more "mystic" side, and it all makes sense now.

 

[Always in His Presence]

None of these verses preclude us seeking the intercession of the departed, which indeed is a sign of faith in the redemptive power of Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ and in His intercessions for us, because those who He has saved have put on Christ and have become through Theosis, by grace, what He is by nature, and thus to seek their intercession and venerate them is to seek the mediation and offer worship to Christ our God.

That is direct conflict to:

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,

Then also here: Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.

 

[Valletta]

That is direct conflict to:



Then also here: Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.

The Bible tells us we are to pray for one another, that's what the saints do. Jesus, of course, is our only judge. That does not mean he does not work through others.

 

[The Liturgist]

What is driving many replies in this thread is a trifecta of misconceptions about worship: that venerating the Theotokos takes away or distracts from our relationship with our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ (it doesn’t - I can attest that from personal experience, that my love for and proximity to Christ our God has increased proportionately to my increased devotion to his blessed mother, our glorious lady Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary) that prayer to someone is equivalent to worship (actually, we can pray to the living; it is more commonly called supplication or entreaty these days, but historically the word prayer was used, and is still used in legal contexts), that all aspects of traditional liturgical worship not explicitly mentioned in Scripture are somehow wrong even when they do not contradict Scripture (this argument is called the Regulative Principle and is of Calvinist origin, but it is inconsistent with 1 Corinthians 11:6 and 2 Thessalonians 2:15 and for that matter Matthew 16:18 and can simply be dismissed, particularly since the Church when the final New Testament canon was assembled in the fourth century had never, by that time, even mentioned the Regulative Principle; rather, only worship practices actually contrary to Scripture, for example, homosexual weddings, are to be rejected, and this is the view of traditional Lutherans and Anglicans and other liturgical Christians including the high church Calvinists, such as the Scoto Catholics and Reformed Catholics), but unfortunately not of liberal Lutherans or liberal Anglicans or liberal aliturgical Christians including the ABC, much of the PCUSA, much of the UMC, and of the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ; unfortunately all Moravians at present have also embraced homosexual marriage despite it being unscriptural. But whereas we reject gay marriage because it is contrary to Scripture, the veneration of the Theotokos is not contrary to Scripture, so it is admissable.

Conversely many people in this thread are failing to fully internalize the significance of being the mother of God, due to crypto-Nestorian influences, that is to say, of being chosen to be the woman by whom God in the person of the Only Begotten Son and Word put on our human nature uniting it with His divinity without change, confusion, separation or division, which is extremely important to our salvation. Because she was His mother, St. Mary spent a great amount of time with our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, having given birth to Him, suckled Him, having loved him and taken care of him in his childhood, as we see by her maternal concern during the incident where he was inadvertently left at the Temple, and furthermore she can be seeing directing people to obey him at the Wedding Feast where our Lord changed the water into wine - that she knew He could do that is important to remember, and it is more important what she said, which was to do as He tells you, which having been done, led to the party receiving blessed wine which made what they had been drinking seem like swill.*

Lastly at the foot of the cross we find St. John the Beloved Disciple and the Theotokos. Christ, from the Cross, made “the disciple whom He loved”, which also refers to us, typologically, since we are disciples who Christ loves, the adoptive son of the Theotokos, and thus the Theotokos is a mother to the Church, and served in such a position for the remainder of her life, until her assumption, which occurred at some point prior to 53 AD (we know this because St. Thomas the Apostle was still alive at the time).

*This entire pericope is unpopular with those churches which are doctrinally abstentionist, but the dogmatic prohibition on alcohol consumption embraced by some groups such as Baptists and Adventists and historically by the Methodists and most Presbyterians is not scripturally supported (conversely, getting drunk is also not scripturally supported; St. Paul wrote to St. Timothy to have a little wine for thy stomach and not to get sloshed).

 

[Always in His Presence]

The Bible tells us we are to pray for one another,

Yes that is in scripture

that's what the saints do. Jesus, of course, is our only judge. That does not mean he does not work through others.

Those who have died in Christ (saints) - there is nothing supporting your statement. That is my point.

 

[The Liturgist]

That is direct conflict to:



Then also here: Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.

No its not, because we are not asking, at least in Orthodoxy, for Our Lady and the other saints to mediate, but rather to pray for us. Which is a substantial difference. Asking for intercessory prayer is something we routinely do with those upon the living, and if asking the Theotokos for her prayers is not allowed, then neither is asking anyone alive for their prayers.

Now, your post does raise a legitimate objection to those who regard the Theotokos as a definitive Mediatrix, but that’s not the Orthodox or those Protestant Christians who seek the prayers of the Church Triumphant as well as the Church Militant.

 

[The Liturgist]

Then also here: Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.

The Last Judgement occurs following the General Resurrection of the faithful, when we face the dread judgement seat of Christ, but obviously in the case of those who have been taken bodily into heaven such as the Theotokos, St. Elias and St. Moses, and the Holy Martyrs and Confessors, we know what their eschatological status is with certainty based on the promises made by Christ our True God.

For this reason the Orthodox automatically venerate all martyrs as saints, immediately upon the confirmation of their status as martyrs. I don’t understand why our Roman Catholic brethren do not follow the same practice.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Lastly at the foot of the cross we find St. John the Beloved Disciple and the Theotokos. Christ, from the Cross, made “the disciple whom He loved”, which also refers to us, typologically, since we are disciples who Christ loves, the adoptive son of the Theotokos, and thus the Theotokos is a mother to the Church, and served in such a position for the remainder of her life, until her assumption, which occurred at some point prior to 53 AD (we know this because St. Thomas the Apostle was still alive at the time).

John 19:26 When Jesus therefore saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing by, He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” Then He said to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home.

In doing so, His mother was taken care of until the time of her death.

She is mentioned only one time in Acts 1 - and then never again throughout the formation of the church worldwide. Not one quotation - not one action. As 'mother of the church' she has no recorded role or input. Kinda strange.

There is zero scriptural record of an 'assumption' and the prayer mentioned in the OP was not widely use until 1,600 years later.