All God wanted from the Apostles were saved, or did He want more?

[GoldenKingGaze]

In the years after Pentecost, did God obtain He wanted or did He sorely lose beloved people, first Jews and Gentiles?
So Peter and the other 11, Paul, Barnabas, Andronicus and Junius, perhaps ending in John's death around 96 AD?

 

[David Lamb]

In the years after Pentecost, did God obtain He wanted or did He sorely lose beloved people, first Jews and Gentiles?
So Peter and the other 11, Paul, Barnabas, Andronicus and Junius, perhaps ending in John's death around 96 AD?

God always does what He wants or wills to do. Regarding who is saved, Jesus said:

“"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” (Joh 6:37 NKJV)

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

God always does what He wants or wills to do. Regarding who is saved, Jesus said:

“"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” (Joh 6:37 NKJV)

I mean to ask if God wanted more salvations from the apostles than they actually reaped into the kingdom?

 

[David Lamb]

I mean to ask if God wanted more salvations from the apostles than they actually reaped into the kingdom?

The answer is still the same. God is almighty. He does what He wants. If He had wanted more people saved, they would have been saved.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

God always does what He wants or wills to do. Regarding who is saved, Jesus said:

“"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” (Joh 6:37 NKJV)

Personally, I think Peter and Paul wanted and yearned for more, but were cut short in 66 AD.

 

[David Lamb]

Personally, I think Peter and Paul wanted and yearned for more, but were cut short in 66 AD.

But I thought you were talking about what God wanted, not what Peter and Paul wanted. Anyway, how do you know that Peter and Paul wanted more? Like all Christians, they would have rejoiced over every sinner saved, but that's different to wishing God saved more than He did.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

But I thought you were talking about what God wanted, not what Peter and Paul wanted. Anyway, how do you know that Peter and Paul wanted more? Like all Christians, they would have rejoiced over every sinner saved, but that's different to wishing God saved more than He did.

Jesus said He wished the whole world was on fire. Paul in Romans 9 and 10 yearned for more Hebrew conversions. Isn't that Godly? The first ten percent then the rest of the batch is holy. Romans 11:16

 

[David Lamb]

Jesus said He wished the whole world was on fire. Paul in Romans 9 and 10 yearned for more Hebrew conversions. Isn't that Godly? The first ten percent then the rest of the batch is holy. Romans 11:16

Where do we read of Jesus saying that He wished the whole world was on fire?

Yes, of course it is good to yearn and pray for more sinners to be saved, but wrong to try to get God to change His mind about how many He wishes to be saved.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Where do we read of Jesus saying that He wished the whole world was on fire?

Yes, of course it is good to yearn and pray for more sinners to be saved, but wrong to try to get God to change His mind about how many He wishes to be saved.

Luke 12:49
I am sure God wants each sinner except for people like Hitler unless he begged for mercy.

 

[David Lamb]

Luke 12:49
I am sure God wants each sinner except for people like Hitler unless he begged for mercy.

Thanks for the verse. I believe the fire there refers either to the gospel itself, or to zeal for the gospel.

If God wanted each sinner except people like Hitler saved, why do we read of God having chosen those whom He would save?

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.” (Eph 1:3-6 NKJV)

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Thanks for the verse. I believe the fire there refers either to the gospel itself, or to zeal for the gospel.

If God wanted each sinner except people like Hitler saved, why do we read of God having chosen those whom He would save?

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.” (Eph 1:3-6 NKJV)

He wants all souls, and knows which ones will respond by receiving grace and bearing fruit. That He wills and after our response to the preaching of the Gospel we are chosen or potentially lost. You can search for "fire" in the Bible, it is the Holy Spirit, like living water, Jesus' sacred blood, resurrection power, anointing oil, bread of life, God's light, God's sheer love, it is God's power hidden in His presence.

 

[David Lamb]

He wants all souls, and knows which ones will respond by receiving grace and bearing fruit. That He wills and after our response to the preaching of the Gospel we are chosen or potentially lost. You can search for "fire" in the Bible, it is the Holy Spirit, like living water, Jesus' sacred blood, resurrection power, anointing oil, bread of life, God's light, God's sheer love, it is God's power hidden in His presence.

But those verses I quoted from Ephesians don't give the slightest hint that God chose sinners to save based on what He foresaw of their response to the gospel. Indeed, in the very next chapter, we are told that God saved the Ephesian Christians while they were still dead in trespasses and sins, so unable to respond positively to the gospel:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.” (Eph 2:1-7 NKJV)

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

But those verses I quoted from Ephesians don't give the slightest hint that God chose sinners to save based on what He foresaw of their response to the gospel. Indeed, in the very next chapter, we are told that God saved the Ephesian Christians while they were still dead in trespasses and sins, so unable to respond positively to the gospel:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.” (Eph 2:1-7 NKJV)

Romans 8:29 was written first and as a basis. Key word there is "foreknew". God showed the Ephesians mercy and grace and they could do noth much unless they heard the Gospel.

 

[David Lamb]

Romans 8:29 was written first and as a basis. Key word there is "foreknew". God showed the Ephesians mercy and grace and they could do noth much unless they heard the Gospel.

As the Gospel has its origin in God, His mercy and grace included making sure they did hear that gospel.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

As the Gospel has its origin in God, His mercy and grace included making sure they did hear that gospel.

People can hear the Gospel but may need help to make the proper response. If someone on a train by rote speaks to passengers one after the other, a Gospel tract, that will probably make no difference. Old hardened soldiers may need more grace than adolescents. Some need wisdom, others a healing... Because Paul and Peter and many others died because of the faith, this would hinder the spread of the Gospel.

 

[David Lamb]

People can hear the Gospel but may need help to make the proper response. If someone on a train by rote speaks to passengers one after the other, a Gospel tract, that will probably make no difference. Old hardened soldiers may need more grace than adolescents. Some need wisdom, others a healing... Because Paul and Peter and many others died because of the faith, this would hinder the spread of the Gospel.

God supplies whatever grace is needed. I don't agree that Christians being killed for the sake of Christ hinders the spread of the gospel. The book of Acts in the bible tells us of much persecution, with some Christians being killed (Stephen and James, for instance) and others being imprisoned. Yet Acts also tells us of great gospel spreading. One early Christian said or wrote, "the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church". In other words, Christians being martyred seemed to bring about a growth in the number of Christians.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

God supplies whatever grace is needed. I don't agree that Christians being killed for the sake of Christ hinders the spread of the gospel. The book of Acts in the bible tells us of much persecution, with some Christians being killed (Stephen and James, for instance) and others being imprisoned. Yet Acts also tells us of great gospel spreading. One early Christian said or wrote, "the blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church". In other words, Christians being martyred seemed to bring about a growth in the number of Christians.

I seem to see in your views a sense of fate. I know they saying about the blood of the martyrs, and think there is truth to it, in that by their courage and conviction, they attracted interest... but without empowerment from Peter, John, and Paul... they may not have gone on to spiritual gifting, charism and inner power, knowing the power of Jesus' blood and the power of the resurrection as mentioned in Romans 8. Unlike Timothy, no prophecy about using powers and mission details... Like a river being absorbed in desert sands, not making it to the sea. The church lacked it's initial power and zeal... The conversion under Constantine helped, but there was little left. And St Francis much later worked on a crumbling church, the foreign missions were anaemic. India and Spain missions stalled, we missed China, and a big one, Arabia, instead Islam came out from them.

Acts supports the the idea that not too much persecution and great adventures and success could take place. And the book ends with success, just before Nero rules and Peter and Paul are killed and John is Exiled some time later.
KJV Acts 12:20-25
20And Herod was highly displeased with them of Tyre and Sidon: but they came with one accord to him, and, having made Blastus the king's chamberlain their friend, desired peace; because their country was nourished by the king's country. 21And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. 22And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. 23And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

24But the word of God grew and multiplied.

25And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled their ministry, and took with them John, whose surname was Mark.

Mark by tradition in Egypt is their Bishop, like Peter in Rome.

Governors, despite the honour Paul gives them in Romans can die as above. Hit by God, and for accepting worship!

Overall, the persecution reduced the number of Christians, in Italy and China.

And today, after communism, look at Russia, and also Hungary, where at least the Christians were not killed, only beaten, Hungary has the biggest revival of Christian faith in Europe, with one church holding 120,000 members, with power ministry, and still the RCC and it's charismatic renewal and also reformed churches...

 

[David Lamb]

I seem to see in your views a sense of fate.

I assure you that as a Christian I do not believe in fate.

I know they saying about the blood of the martyrs, and think there is truth to it, in that by their courage and conviction, they attracted interest... but without empowerment from Peter, John, and Paul... they may not have gone on to spiritual gifting, charism and inner power, knowing the power of Jesus' blood and the power of the resurrection as mentioned in Romans 8. Unlike Timothy, no prophecy about using powers and mission details... Like a river being absorbed in desert sands, not making it to the sea. The church lacked it's initial power and zeal... The conversion under Constantine helped, but there was little left. And St Francis much later worked on a crumbling church, the foreign missions were anaemic. India and Spain missions stalled, we missed China, and a big one, Arabia, instead Islam came out from them.

It was empowerment from God Himself, not from Peter, John and Paul.

Acts supports the the idea that not too much persecution and great adventures and success could take place. And the book ends with success, just before Nero rules and Peter and Paul are killed and John is Exiled some time later.
KJV Acts 12:20-25
20And Herod was highly displeased with them of Tyre and Sidon: but they came with one accord to him, and, having made Blastus the king's chamberlain their friend, desired peace; because their country was nourished by the king's country. 21And upon a set day Herod, arrayed in royal apparel, sat upon his throne, and made an oration unto them. 22And the people gave a shout, saying, It is the voice of a god, and not of a man. 23And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.

24But the word of God grew and multiplied.

25And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, when they had fulfilled their ministry, and took with them John, whose surname was Mark.

Mark by tradition in Egypt is their Bishop, like Peter in Rome.

Nothing in the bible about Mark being in Egypt or Peter in Rome.

I think you are in danger of forgetting God's almighty power. It is He, not any particular Christian(s), that causes His church to increase.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I assure you that as a Christian I do not believe in fate.

It was empowerment from God Himself, not from Peter, John and Paul.

Nothing in the bible about Mark being in Egypt or Peter in Rome.

I think you are in danger of forgetting God's almighty power. It is He, not any particular Christian(s), that causes His church to increase.

Peter, Paul and John, could give a God seeker a great foot up into the things of God, by laying on hands, prophesying and imparting spiritual gifting. As in Corinth, prophecy, knowledge, healings...

Timothy and his charism, and Apollos, young ones carrying on the faith. For them to hear the word read, and seek God to obtain such power and wisdom would be possible, but extraordinary.

The Roman Catholics and Egyptian Copts keep records. They have a lineage of popes and they keep their letters, for example, Clement of Rome.

And in Romans God says through Paul that people must hear to believe. I needed prophecy and the laying on of hands.
Romans 10:5-17 KJV
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1Corinthians 14:24-26 KJV
24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

James 5:16 KJV
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Moses began the powerful tradition of laying on of hands to impart his abilities.

 

[David Lamb]

Peter, Paul and John, could give a God seeker a great foot up into the things of God, by laying on hands, prophesying and imparting spiritual gifting. As in Corinth, prophecy, knowledge, healings...

Timothy and his charism, and Apollos, young ones carrying on the faith. For them to hear the word read, and seek God to obtain such power and wisdom would be possible, but extraordinary.

The Roman Catholics and Egyptian Copts keep records. They have a lineage of popes and they keep their letters, for example, Clement of Rome.

And in Romans God says through Paul that people must hear to believe. I needed prophecy and the laying on of hands.
Romans 10:5-17 KJV
5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1Corinthians 14:24-26 KJV
24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: 25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

James 5:16 KJV
16Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Moses began the powerful tradition of laying on of hands to impart his abilities.

The laying on of hands was an outward sign. Moses, and other godly men including the apostles, did not impart the spiritual gifts; God did.