The Deaconess Phoebe

[Hoping2]

Paul's requirements' underlying message is 'above reproach/blameless/exemplary' but his list cannot be used in the literal sense so that a suitable/exemplary believer who does not have children, or who is not married by definition would fail the requirements. If that were the case Paul himself would fail to qualify ..

A little leaven leaventh the whole bunch.
If we don't have to take that literally, who is to say we need to take anything literally ?
Pretty soon, we can delete the required faithfulness, or obedience to God, as a necessity for service.
Paul was not a pastor or deacon.

He is quite clear on the male/female dynamics, but for deacons that may not be limiting factor simply because of the nature of the tasks.

I disagree.

 

[Hoping2]

ONE wife, yes - as opposed to several.
So deacons must be married, must have children and must be able to manage them? Presumably any unmarried, infertile men are banned from being a deacon?

Correct, as an unmarried man cannot demonstrate the necessary ability to raise and guide folks.
If he can't guide a wife, or child, in the ways of the Lord, he is unqualified to lead a church.

I doubt that. And why was Paul more concerned with their fertility than whether or not they had faith, were men of prayer, etc?

Do you believe Paul had the gift of the Holy Spirit ?
If so, why do you doubt that everything he wrote is directly from God ?

 

[Hoping2]

"I commend you Phebe.... which is a deaconess of the church." (Romans 16:1) That is the same Greek word used in 1 Timothy 3:12. Please reconcile that! (Is Phebe "trans-gender"????)

It is written (KJV)..." I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"
I see no mention of deaconess, or any other title but 'servant'.

 

[Hoping2]

Perhaps the question is …

A male Deacon should be the husband of one wife, and have his household in order.

Is it also correct to say:

A female Deacon should be the wife of one husband and have her household in order.

I believe that is the right way to look at it.​

It will be OK for the wife to lead a husband, when it becomes OK for a church to lead God.
Paul laid out God's requirements for bishipry and deaconism.
To stray from God's path will end in condemnation.
Why try to diverge from what we already have from God ?

 

[RDKirk]

How would you explain prophetesses "instructing" men then? For to proclaim the Word of God is inherently "instructing men".

I believe Paul was opposed specifically to men being discipled under women--and vice versa. Remember that "teacher" in those days conveyed a greatly different concept than it does to us in the West today. The closest concept we have of "teacher" as they knew it would be the sensei in a martial arts dojo.

In Paul's parlance, teachers held complete authority over their disciples. Disciples generally lived with the teachers and served their personal needs. We see with Jesus and His disciples the level of authority teachers held over their disciples. A teacher could say to his disciples, "I'm going to sit here at this well and talk to this woman...all of you go into town, get some food, and bring it back here." A teacher could say, "Your father named you Simon, but I'm changing your name to Cephas." It was that kind of relationship that Paul prohibited across the sexes...for good and obvious reason.

A young man would be discipled under an older man and a young woman (a single woman) would be discipled under an older woman.

That did not preclude a woman from giving information to a man. Priscilla, along with her husband, expounded the gospel to Apollos, but Apollos was not discipled under them. They had no authority over him. A prophetess has no authority over men. Many deacon positions would also have no authority over men, and whatever authority they had would be delegated authority. As has been alluded by an earlier correspondent, almost any designated service position in a congregation could be called a deaconate, such as the woman running the church nursery, and that position would include directing a man who had no child there to leave the room. But that would not be under her own authority, that would be the delegated authority by the pastor or an elder.

 

[RDKirk]

It is written (KJV)..." I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"
I see no mention of deaconess, or any other title but 'servant'.

First, the word used by Paul here is diakonos, which is the same word that everywhere else in the KJV is translated either "minister" or "deacon."

Second, Paul mentions only Phoebe and then directs the Roman congregation to attend to her for whatever other business she has in Rome. The fact that only Phoebe is mentioned strongly suggests that she was the leader--under Paul's delegated authority--of the group Paul sent to Rome to carry his letter. Certainly she would not have traveled that 700 miles alone, nor would she have traveled in a group of only women.

 

[Strong in Him]

Correct, as an unmarried man cannot demonstrate the necessary ability to raise and guide folks.
If he can't guide a wife, or child, in the ways of the Lord, he is unqualified to lead a church.

Nonsense.
i) that would disqualify Paul and Jesus himself from leading a church.
ii) the Catholic church has, for centuries, been led by unmarried men. I'm sure you could find unmarried clergy in other churches too.

David was king over all Israel - and a good one, too. But he had at least 3 wives and was not able to control his children, (one of them raped his sister and was then killed by his brother.

Do you believe Paul had the gift of the Holy Spirit ?

Of course.

If so, why do you doubt that everything he wrote is directly from God ?

I don't.
We are discussing only a couple of verses in one of the last letters that Paul ever wrote - in fact, some doubt that it WAS written by him.
Just because I disagree with you, I am suddenly doubting everything he wrote?

I could equally ask you; "why are you assuming that everything that Paul wrote - to various churches in a certain era - has to be applied to, and obeyed by, us today?
Do you believe we have to obey every word that Scripture says, even though it wasn't written to us?
If so, what do you do about the verse where Paul says that short hair on women and long hair on men, is disgraceful, 1 Corinthians 11:14? How short is short, and how long is long? How long was Jesus' hair? What about Samson who was commanded to have long hair?
What about the verse which says that women should not wear gold, 1 Timothy 2:9? What are wedding rings made of and where do most couples exchange these rings?
What about the whole of the Jewish law? Yes, Jesus came to fulfill the law but it is still in our Bibles.
What do you do about the verse (s) which imply that a woman should be silent in church? How could Paul allow, and even instruct, a woman in prophecy and prayer if she has to be silent?

The Bible needs to be read, and understood, in context - and it is the Holy Spirit who tells us if, or how, to apply it to our lives.

 

[Strong in Him]

It will be OK for the wife to lead a husband, when it becomes OK for a church to lead God.

Really?
Even though God told Abraham to listen to his wife, Genesis 21:12?
Even though Moses' wife intervened when God was going to kill Moses, and saved his life, Exodus 4:24-26?
Even though it was Deborah who was called to be judge over all the nation, and not her husband?
Even though the King's male priests went to consult Huldah, a prophetess, and not her husband - or in fact a male prophet?
Eve though Esther approached her husband, the king, without his permission and persuaded him not to destroy the Jewish people?
Even though men and women were both created by God in his image?

 

[Reluctant Theologian]

In the past, maybe.
Not when he founded his churches. Yet his own words would have apparently prevented him from being a deacon in one of those churches.

We have to read carefully - I don't think Paul meant to say a childless husband failed to qualify, and I think neither did he for an unmarried or widowed but otherwise blameless believer. Being married with children was the defacto standard situation for nearly all men (in Judaism marriage is a duty) - Paul simply expands on what being blameless means for that situation. Do you really think Paul meant to say a deacon would have to step down if he suddenly were widowed?

Even the phrase 'husband of one wife' needs careful interpretation as the Greek here is open for a range of interpretations. The Greek literally says ' ... one woman man .... The possible serious interpretations range from:

• exactly one wife now
• maximum one wife now (excluding polygyny which was still common and legal in Judaism at that time)
• maximum one wife over his lifetime / never remarried after being widowed
• never divorced / never remarried
• not being a womanizer / being faithful (limiting oneself to your marriage partner)

Take your pick .. it's not as straightforward as our English translation sometimes make it look it is.

 

[Hoping2]

First, the word used by Paul here is diakonos, which is the same word that everywhere else in the KJV is translated either "minister" or "deacon."

Second, Paul mentions only Phoebe and then directs the Roman congregation to attend to her for whatever other business she has in Rome. The fact that only Phoebe is mentioned strongly suggests that she was the leader--under Paul's delegated authority--of the group Paul sent to Rome to carry his letter. Certainly she would not have traveled that 700 miles alone, nor would she have traveled in a group of only women.

Paul specifies the requirements for being a deacon, in 1 Tim 3.
"12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well."

Why do some think he suddenly wasn't speaking by the Holy Spirit ?

 

[RDKirk]

Paul specifies the requirements for being a deacon, in 1 Tim 3.
"12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well."

Why do some think he suddenly wasn't speaking by the Holy Spirit ?

That point has already been explained to you. The fact is, Paul called Phoebe a diakonos, the exact word he uses in Timothy.

 

[Hoping2]

Nonsense.
i) that would disqualify Paul and Jesus himself from leading a church.
ii) the Catholic church has, for centuries, been led by unmarried men. I'm sure you could find unmarried clergy in other churches too.

Paul was never a "church leader" in the manner of a bishop/pastor.

David was king over all Israel - and a good one, too. But he had at least 3 wives and was not able to control his children, (one of them raped his sister and was then killed by his brother.

Was David the leader of a Christian church ?
No, and was not under NT commandments.
David was in fact still a man walking in and after the flesh.
In this NT, we have been enabled to walk in and after the Spirit.

Of course.

Then why do you doubt his commands for church leadership ?

I don't.
We are discussing only a couple of verses in one of the last letters that Paul ever wrote - in fact, some doubt that it WAS written by him.
Just because I disagree with you, I am suddenly doubting everything he wrote?

If you can doubt one part, you can doubt it all.

I could equally ask you; "why are you assuming that everything that Paul wrote - to various churches in a certain era - has to be applied to, and obeyed by, us today?

Because God does not change.
His commandments in the year 1, are the same today.

Do you believe we have to obey every word that Scripture says, even though it wasn't written to us?

If it pertains to us...yes. (Men aren't required to obey things written to women, and vice versa)
Why wouldn't I ?

If so, what do you do about the verse where Paul says that short hair on women and long hair on men, is disgraceful, 1 Corinthians 11:14?

I obey it, of course.
Long hair didn't stop protecting women of God, and neither did it stop being a glory to her.
Nature still teaches us that long hair is a shame for a man.

How short is short, and how long is long?

Let the Holy Ghost be your guide.
Of course the Holy Ghost will never contradict scripture.

How long was Jesus' hair?

Not as long as a woman's.

What about Samson who was commanded to have long hair?

Commands by God should be obeyed.
So to should the words He has left us from the time of the NT writers be obeyed

What about the verse which says that women should not wear gold, 1 Timothy 2:9? What are wedding rings made of and where do most couples exchange these rings?

With your avatar name, I can't figure out why you would need to ask.

What about the whole of the Jewish law? Yes, Jesus came to fulfill the law but it is still in our Bibles.
What do you do about the verse (s) which imply that a woman should be silent in church? How could Paul allow, and even instruct, a woman in prophecy and prayer if she has to be silent?

If one just obeys what is written, and preserved by the power of God, they would not need to ask so many questions already answered in the bible.

The Bible needs to be read, and understood, in context - and it is the Holy Spirit who tells us if, or how, to apply it to our lives.

God doesn't change, and that is the context wherein we are to understand Him and the writings brought forward by the Holy Spirit..

 

[Hoping2]

Really?
Even though God told Abraham to listen to his wife, Genesis 21:12?
Even though Moses' wife intervened when God was going to kill Moses, and saved his life, Exodus 4:24-26?
Even though it was Deborah who was called to be judge over all the nation, and not her husband?
Even though the King's male priests went to consult Huldah, a prophetess, and not her husband - or in fact a male prophet?
Eve though Esther approached her husband, the king, without his permission and persuaded him not to destroy the Jewish people?
Even though men and women were both created by God in his image?

Yes, even though...

 

[Hoping2]

That point has already been explained to you. The fact is, Paul called Phoebe a diakonos, the exact word he uses in Timothy.

...translated "servant".
I will not make her the victim of unbiblical theorizing.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I think the distinction between a prophet and the other roles is clear enough that Paul could safely and understandably issue his instructions; at no point did he prohibit female prophetesses, but he did for for the authority over/teach over men - both in church and in marriage.

That depends on one's interpretation / understanding of the Greek used in 1 Timothy 2:12.

The word translated "authority" is of an "odd" rendering, only used in that particular verse (though obviously a different Greek word for "authority" is used in other verses). The translation by one Greek scholar says: "... a woman not teach that she is the authorship (originator) of man." This was historically in response to a "Mother Earth" type cult teaching that was prevalent in Ephesus at the time; which even stated that the "mother earth goddess" was the creator of God the Father.

Which this interpretation makes more sense when you go to read the next verse: "For Adam was created first..."

Now the word "silence" used in this passage too; ".... women learn in silence..." comes from a Greek base word that is most often translated "steadfast". Which literally means "to maintain ones seat" (as a student). Which is also translated "be quiet" which is also used in verses that say that elders / deacons / ministers (pastors) should not be "brawlers".

Which this of course jives with the rest of Scripture; which speaks of prophetesses, female leaders, and female judges. All of which "had authority" over men.

And, on a practical level though; define "man". Does this mean that boys over 12 years old can not have female teachers? Is a mom no longer to "have authority" over her 12 year old son? What about civil society. Do you disobey female police officers because "women aren't to have authority over men"?

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[The Righterzpen]

It is written (KJV)..." I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:"
I see no mention of deaconess, or any other title but 'servant'.

Except "deacon" and "servant" are the same Greek word.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Paul commends Phoebe in Romans 16:1-2. Romans 16 is the last chapter of Romans and it is devoted to a series of greetings. I am not sure when Phoebe was first called a Deaconess, but the phrase “Deaconess Phoebe” seems to be familiar to most Christians. If anyone thinks that a “Deaconess” is less important than a “Deacon,” that seems to be a misunderstanding or a mistranslation.

Phoebe is called a “sister,” “servant” and “succourer” in the KJV. A succourer is one who gives help in times of need. She is a “sister,” a “ministrant,” and a “leader” in Young’s Literal Translation, YLT. The New Revised Standard calls her a “sister,” “deacon,” and a “benefactor.” She is a “sister,” “servant,” and “helper” in the New American Standard Bible. The New American Bible calls her a “sister,” “minister,” and “benefactor.” The word translated as “deacon” means “servant,” so it is difficult to distinguish between the two.

I have discussed the Deaconess Phoebe with conservative Baptists. “All Phoebe did was sweep the floor,” they told me.

Who is the Deaconess Phoebe and what did she do? It is no small matter for Paul to refer to Phoebe as a “helper,” as the NASB has it. Timothy is also called a helper.

He [Paul] sent two of his helpers, Timothy and Erastus, to Macedonia, while he stayed in the province of Asia a little longer. Acts 19:22 NIV​

Scholars believe that Paul wrote the Book of Romans, as a letter, while in Ephesus. Phoebe was the courier who delivered the letter. Ephesus is 700 miles from Rome and travel in the ancient world was slow and hazardous. She probably traveled with other people, either men in her family, or servants. Paul would not have entrusted the delivery of the Book of Romans to anyone unless they were trustworthy and resourceful.

In his commentary on Romans 16:1-2, the traditional commentator John Gill says:

“The person who is here recommended was, as appears from the subscription of this epistle, if that may be depended on, the bearer of this letter …”

Why is Phoebe called a servant of the church, a Deacon or Deaconess, even a minister?

“Rather, as some think, she was a deaconess appointed by the church, to take care of the poor sisters of the church …”

Even if she never preached or taught, it is clear that her responsibilities went far beyond sweeping the floor.

​

It is clear that some women held high position in the early church serving under men...I do not see that they served over men nor in the church proper.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I believe Paul was opposed specifically to men being discipled under women--and vice versa. Remember that "teacher" in those days conveyed a greatly different concept than it does to us in the West today. The closest concept we have of "teacher" as they knew it would be the sensei in a martial arts dojo.

In Paul's parlance, teachers held complete authority over their disciples. Disciples generally lived with the teachers and served their personal needs. We see with Jesus and His disciples the level of authority teachers held over their disciples. A teacher could say to his disciples, "I'm going to sit here at this well and talk to this woman...all of you go into town, get some food, and bring it back here." A teacher could say, "Your father named you Simon, but I'm changing your name to Cephas." It was that kind of relationship that Paul prohibited across the sexes...for good and obvious reason.

A young man would be discipled under an older man and a young woman (a single woman) would be discipled under an older woman.

That did not preclude a woman from giving information to a man. Priscilla, along with her husband, expounded the gospel to Apollos, but Apollos was not discipled under them. They had no authority over him. A prophetess has no authority over men. Many deacon positions would also have no authority over men, and whatever authority they had would be delegated authority. As has been alluded by an earlier correspondent, almost any designated service position in a congregation could be called a deaconate, such as the woman running the church nursery, and that position would include directing a man who had no child there to leave the room. But that would not be under her own authority, that would be the delegated authority by the pastor or an elder.

Except Timothy himself was discipled by his own mother and grandmother:
And I discipled my own son because his father took off on us and later committed suicide when my son was 15. My son has said to both myself and several other people; that what he came to understand about the mercy of God was because of me; how I act and what I taught him.

2 Timothy 1:
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day;

4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy;

5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.

6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

So though I agree, there are times people should not be discipled by those of the opposite sex; (particularly adult new believers) but that injunction is not across the board in every circumstance. As most kids raised in believing households are taught by at least one parent. (Usually mom).

 

[Strong in Him]

Yes, even though...

Well God obviously doesn't keep his own "rules" then.

 

[Strong in Him]

...translated "servant".
I will not make her the victim of unbiblical theorizing.

Translated servant, Minister or Deacon.
If you don't believe me, get an interlinear Greek NT and Greek dictionary and check for yourself.