Abraham in old Paradise, Jonah and in the Earth's Depths, they show themselves no mercy.

[David Lamb]

Why does God have Jonah mention that they show themselves no mercy, far from Israel in the depths of the sea, in Jonah 2, a messianic prophecy? It seems religious people show themselves mercy and want to condemn the others. Some turn to idols because they want it easier.

Jonah doesn't say that they they show themselves no mercy, but that they forsake their own mercy, which as I have said before, seems to refer to them rejecting the mercy which God has given them. I have never heard of showing oneself mercy before. Mercy in the bible is withholding a deserved punishment, so unless you are thinking of punishments one inflict upon oneself, I don't see how a person can have mercy upon himself. You say that "religious people show themselves mercy and want to condemn the others." Maybe some religious people do that, but Christians don't (or shouldn't). Christians believe that it is God Who shows them mercy:

“Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord — that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.” (Jas 5:11 NKJV)

Because they have received mercy, they should show mercy too. Jesus told a parable illustrating this very point. It concerned a servant who had been forgiven an enormous debt by his merciful master, but that servant showed no mercy to his fellow servant who owed him a tiny amount.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Jonah doesn't say that they they show themselves no mercy, but that they forsake their own mercy, which as I have said before, seems to refer to them rejecting the mercy which God has given them. I have never heard of showing oneself mercy before. Mercy in the bible is withholding a deserved punishment, so unless you are thinking of punishments one inflict upon oneself, I don't see how a person can have mercy upon himself. You say that "religious people show themselves mercy and want to condemn the others." Maybe some religious people do that, but Christians don't (or shouldn't). Christians believe that it is God Who shows them mercy:

“Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord — that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.” (Jas 5:11 NKJV)

Because they have received mercy, they should show mercy too. Jesus told a parable illustrating this very point. It concerned a servant who had been forgiven an enormous debt by his merciful master, but that servant showed no mercy to his fellow servant who owed him a tiny amount.

Interesting point in forsaking one's own mercy. How would that effect fellowship?

Why place it in context of the deep sea and a Messianic prophecy?

 

[David Lamb]

Interesting point in forsaking one's own mercy. How would that effect fellowship?

I think you may have meant "affect fellowship." If so, forsaking God's mercy, and therefore God, has a great affect upon fellowship with people who still do believe in God and gratefully accept His mercy. I don't think a person who forsakes God would even want to have fellowship with someone who firmly believes in God.

Why place it in context of the deep sea and a Messianic prophecy?

Well, I think the context helps. Here are the previous few verses:

“Then I said, ‘I have been cast out of Your sight; Yet I will look again toward Your holy temple.’ The waters surrounded me, even to my soul; The deep closed around me; Weeds were wrapped around my head. I went down to the moorings of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God. "When my soul fainted within me, I remembered the LORD; And my prayer went up to You, Into Your holy temple.” (Jon 2:4-7 NKJV)

In other words, he has been thinking about God's holiness, and His mercy to Job ("Yet You have brought up my life from the pit.") So in the deep sea, his thoughts are already on the mercy of God. Hence what more natural than for him then to talk about those who reject God's mercy? As for the Messianic prophecy, we know from the words of Jesus that it was such a prophecy. We don't know that Jonah knew this. He may have done, but we are not told.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I think you may have meant "affect fellowship." If so, forsaking God's mercy, and therefore God, has a great affect upon fellowship with people who still do believe in God and gratefully accept His mercy. I don't think a person who forsakes God would even want to have fellowship with someone who firmly believes in God.

Well, I think the context helps. Here are the previous few verses:

“Then I said, ‘I have been cast out of Your sight; Yet I will look again toward Your holy temple.’ The waters surrounded me, even to my soul; The deep closed around me; Weeds were wrapped around my head. I went down to the moorings of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed behind me forever; Yet You have brought up my life from the pit, O LORD, my God. "When my soul fainted within me, I remembered the LORD; And my prayer went up to You, Into Your holy temple.” (Jon 2:4-7 NKJV)

In other words, he has been thinking about God's holiness, and His mercy to Job ("Yet You have brought up my life from the pit.") So in the deep sea, his thoughts are already on the mercy of God. Hence what more natural than for him then to talk about those who reject God's mercy? As for the Messianic prophecy, we know from the words of Jesus that it was such a prophecy. We don't know that Jonah knew this. He may have done, but we are not told.

Yes, in context is good. I just discovered the Berean Bible and reference to Chesed. In my understanding, Jonah 2 reflects Jesus' journey as from the Apostle's Creed, to the Earth's centre, seaweed may represent evil spirits. Jonah describes it as being "forever", and horrible so the soul faints.

I think this foreshadows Hell and suffering, and those who forsake their own mercy and oppressed by evil spirits and are in Hell.

Jesus was our high priest, who lived the human experience. Ho looked to God via the temple and the ark. His human soul faints but in Him is the fullness of the Godhead dwelling bodily. Now without His body and in Hell, the soul faints but the Spirit is supermassive and He is strong indeed. Satan is overcome. By the working of Jesus and the Father and the Spirit. Jesus is victor of Satan who held the power of death and the keys to death and Hell, but now Jesus has them. Jesus shows the damned mercy that reignites them showing it to themselves. They are saved in full, in the lower parts of the Earth and are at some point, with freedom, given gifts. And they later rise to Paradise above.

Berean Bible, Jonah 2.
1From inside the fish, Jonah prayed to the LORD his God, 2saying:

“In my distress I called to the LORD,

and He answered me.

From the belly of Sheol I called for help,

and You heard my voice.

3For You cast me into the deep,

into the heart of the seas,

and the current swirled about me;

all Your breakers and waves swept over me.

4At this, I said,

‘I have been banished from Your sight;

yet I will look once more

toward Your holy temple.’

5The waters engulfed me

to take my life;

the watery depths closed around me;

the seaweed wrapped around my head.

6To the roots of the mountains I descended;

the earth beneath me barred me in forever!

But You raised my life from the pit,

O LORD my God!

7As my life was fading away,

I remembered the LORD.

My prayer went up to You,

to Your holy temple.

8Those who cling to worthless idols

forsake His loving devotion.a

9But I, with the voice of thanksgiving,

will sacrifice to You.

I will fulfill what I have vowed.

Salvation is from the LORD!”

10And the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.



Footnotes:

8 a Forms of the Hebrew chesed are translated here and in most cases throughout the Scriptures as loving devotion; the range of meaning includes love, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, and mercy, as well as loyalty to a covenant.

They needed someone to enable them to love themselves again. Hard hearted people ending up in Hell, change their minds, even when nothing on Earth would do so.

 

[David Lamb]

Yes, in context is good. I just discovered the Berean Bible and reference to Chesed. In my understanding, Jonah 2 reflects Jesus' journey as from the Apostle's Creed, to the Earth's centre, seaweed may represent evil spirits. Jonah describes it as being "forever", and horrible so the soul faints.

I think this foreshadows Hell and suffering, and those who forsake their own mercy and oppressed by evil spirits and are in Hell.

Jesus was our high priest, who lived the human experience. Ho looked to God via the temple and the ark. His human soul faints but in Him is the fullness of the Godhead dwelling bodily. Now without His body and in Hell, the soul faints but the Spirit is supermassive and He is strong indeed. Satan is overcome. By the working of Jesus and the Father and the Spirit. Jesus is victor of Satan who held the power of death and the keys to death and Hell, but now Jesus has them. Jesus shows the damned mercy that reignites them showing it to themselves. They are saved in full, in the lower parts of the Earth and are at some point, with freedom, given gifts. And they later rise to Paradise above.

Berean Bible, Jonah 2.
1From inside the fish, Jonah prayed to the LORD his God, 2saying:

“In my distress I called to the LORD,

and He answered me.

From the belly of Sheol I called for help,

and You heard my voice.

3For You cast me into the deep,

into the heart of the seas,

and the current swirled about me;

all Your breakers and waves swept over me.

4At this, I said,

‘I have been banished from Your sight;

yet I will look once more

toward Your holy temple.’

5The waters engulfed me

to take my life;

the watery depths closed around me;

the seaweed wrapped around my head.

6To the roots of the mountains I descended;

the earth beneath me barred me in forever!

But You raised my life from the pit,

O LORD my God!

7As my life was fading away,

I remembered the LORD.

My prayer went up to You,

to Your holy temple.

8Those who cling to worthless idols

forsake His loving devotion.a

9But I, with the voice of thanksgiving,

will sacrifice to You.

I will fulfill what I have vowed.

Salvation is from the LORD!”

10And the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.



Footnotes:

8 a Forms of the Hebrew chesed are translated here and in most cases throughout the Scriptures as loving devotion; the range of meaning includes love, goodness, kindness, faithfulness, and mercy, as well as loyalty to a covenant.

They needed someone to enable them to love themselves again. Hard hearted people ending up in Hell, change their minds, even when nothing on Earth would do so.

Thanks. The Berean Bible quote seems to support what I said about verse 8 referring to God and His mercy, when it says "Those who cling to worthless idols forsake His loving devotion."

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Thanks. The Berean Bible quote seems to support what I said about verse 8 referring to God and His mercy, when it says "Those who cling to worthless idols forsake His loving devotion."

Might you agree with the idea that Jesus fulfilling Jonah 2, could show overwhelming love and light to lost souls in darkness and in pain. Captives amidst tormentors. As it is written that non forgivers will be handed over to the tormentors until they pay the last penny of their fine? Matthew 18:34

 

[David Lamb]

Might you agree with the idea that Jesus fulfilling Jonah 2, could show overwhelming love and light to lost souls in darkness and in pain. Captives amidst tormentors. As it is written that non forgivers will be handed over to the tormentors until they pay the last penny of their fine? Matthew 18:34

I am not certain what you mean. Are you suggesting that lost souls, that is, the souls of people who have died without being saved by Jesus, will be shown overwhelming light and love by Jesus after death? If so, I cannot agree with that.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

I am not certain what you mean. Are you suggesting that lost souls, that is, the souls of people who have died without being saved by Jesus, will be shown overwhelming light and love by Jesus after death? If so, I cannot agree with that.

No, everyone by the time of Easter Saturday or Sunday. The first.

Some people who never heard the Gospel especially children. People who follow their conscience have a chance. Remember Jesus said He wants us to trust like little children, and God is the saviour of all especially those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10

 

[David Lamb]

No, everyone by the time of Easter Saturday or Sunday. The first.

Some people who never heard the Gospel especially children. People who follow their conscience have a chance. Remember Jesus said He wants us to trust like little children, and God is the saviour of all especially those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10

Thanks for explaining that you meant everyone before the resurrection of Jesus. What about people like Elijah, who was taken to heaven in a miraculous way, and other Old Testament believers?

I agree that we are to trust Jesus like little children.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Thanks for explaining that you meant everyone before the resurrection of Jesus. What about people like Elijah, who was taken to heaven in a miraculous way, and other Old Testament believers?

I agree that we are to trust Jesus like little children.

Elijah and Enoch, I do not know if they were excepted into Heaven as exceptions to the rule, as it was until Christ rose from the dead and opened the gates? Abraham is in Heaven in a state of great privilege.

 

[David Lamb]

Elijah and Enoch, I do not know if they were excepted into Heaven as exceptions to the rule, as it was until Christ rose from the dead and opened the gates? Abraham is in Heaven in a state of great privilege.

Well, of Elijah we read:

“Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.” (2Ki 2:11 NKJV)

The bible is not quite so clear about Enoch:

“And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.” (Ge 5:24 NKJV)

Certainly it's implied that he was with God.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The gods Israel turned to in sin, were demonic, and that desolate kind of concept would have continued with the Hebrews and the gentiles who went to Hell, where tormentors rule over them. Jesus I am mostly sure, showed them overriding mercy.

Someone who forsakes their own mercy, must be despondent, despairing, hopeless. It would start with not seeing love in the law, and might progress to child sacrifice to Molech and end in Hell.

 

[SamAustralian123]

Read the gospel of Nicodemus or listen on audiobook on youtube. Internally it is dated to before the death of Pilate 36 AD written by Christians. I believe it is inspired. It has a section on Jesus descent into "hell" when he is dead, and he sets the captives free.

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit" (1 Peter 4: 6).

So it makes it sound like dead people got a second chance to be saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
Jesus died, and went to paradise day one with the thief, then went, and preached to the dead on day 2, and 3 I suppose then rose from the dead.

 

[SamAustralian123]

Here is a section in gospel of Barnabas about the thief on the cross

And as Enoch and Elias spake thus with the saints, behold there came another man of vile habit, bearing upon his shoulders the sign of the cross; whom when they beheld, all the saints said unto him: Who art thou? for thine appearance is as of a robber; and wherefore is it that thou bearest a sign upon thy shoulders? And he answered them and said: Ye have rightly said: for I was a robber, doing all manner of evil upon the earth. And the Jews crucified me with Jesus, and I beheld the wonders in the creation which came to pass through the cross of Jesus when he was crucified, and I believed that he was the maker of all creatures and the almighty king, and I besought him, saying: Remember me, Lord, when thou comest into thy kingdom. And forthwith he received my prayer, and said unto me: Verily I say unto thee, this day shalt thou be with me in paradise: and he gave me the sign of the cross, saying: Bear this and go unto paradise, and if the angel that keepeth paradise suffer thee not to enter in, show him the sign of the cross; and thou shalt say unto him: Jesus Christ the Son of God who now is crucified hath sent me. And when I had so done, I spake all these things unto the angel that keepeth paradise; and when he heard this of me, forthwith he opened the door and brought me in and set me at the right hand of paradise, saying: Lo now, tarry a little, and Adam the father of all mankind will enter in with all his children that are holy and righteous, after the triumph and glory of the ascending up of Christ the Lord that is crucified. When they heard all these words of the robber, all the holy patriarchs and prophets said with one voice: Blessed be the Lord Almighty, the Father of eternal good things, the Father of mercies, thou that hast given such grace unto thy sinners and hast brought them again into the beauty of paradise and into thy good pastures: for this is the most holy life of the spirit. Amen, Amen.