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Judge Claims Trump Deported 2-Year-Old American Citizen with “No Meaningful Process” – Here’s What Really Happened

Belk

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You miss the point. I wouldn't be in that position.

Oh yes. I forgot that modern conservatives no longer seem capable of empathy. Apparently the ability to imagine yourself in another situation is no longer possible.

This couple is dealing with the consequences of breaking the laws. They accepted the risks of being illegal and and having a child between them.

When you break the law you have to deal with the consequences of doing so.

The mother CHOSE to take the child. The government did not tell the mother she was REQUIRED to take the child. She made that choice. The consequence if this is that the parents have to work this out and what they want to do. If the mother chooses to keep the child the father will need to go to court. Maybe the mother can be charged with another crime if she refuses to work with the father. But that only applies in the US.

It sucks for the dad. I get that. But he KNEW she was illegal. He took the chances by staying with one that nothing was going to happen.
You are going to sit there with a straight face and try to say that a woman to went in for what she thought was a routine check in but was suddenly seized, was not allowed to communicate with her legal representatives or family, saw no judge and was given no legal proceedings, and was put on a plane three days latter was given a choice? OK RJS330, what choice was she given? Leave her children with the government agents?
 
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wing2000

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I don't know what Honduras requires.

Honduras law is irrelevent. It was the US goverment that deported an American child, ignoring the father's petition to have the child remain with him.
 
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SimplyMe

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You miss the point. I wouldn't be in that position. This couple is dealing with the consequences of breaking the laws. They accepted the risks of being illegal and and having a child between them.

When you break the law you have to deal with the consequences of doing so.

The mother CHOSE to take the child. The government did not tell the mother she was REQUIRED to take the child. She made that choice. The consequence if this is that the parents have to work this out and what they want to do. If the mother chooses to keep the child the father will need to go to court. Maybe the mother can be charged with another crime if she refuses to work with the father. But that only applies in the US.

It sucks for the dad. I get that. But he KNEW she was illegal. He took the chances by staying with one that nothing was going to happen.

I'm curious, since you said the couple broke laws, what law did the father break? He wasn't "harboring an illegal" as she was having appointments with immigration and attending them, which is where she was seized. Again, you have no issue with the father having his parental rights violated. Even if you claim it was the mother that chose to take the child out of the country (which doesn't appear to be a fact, rather it appears she was basically informed she needed to take the child, particularly since they denied her access to her husband and lawyers), she is moving some distance away which, in a previous post, you agreed isn't allowed without custody discussions and/or getting the other parent's permission.

As for the passport, my point is it sounds like the child isn't getting a US passport while being deported. Instead, the father will somehow have to get a passport picture and the mother's signature to apply for a passport while both are in Honduras. Sure, it can still be accomplished but suddenly the process is much harder -- likely part of the intent of the administration.
 
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rjs330

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You are going to sit there with a straight face and try to say that a woman to went in for what she thought was a routine check in but was suddenly seized,

Oh yes. I forgot that modern conservatives no longer seem capable of empathy. Apparently the ability to imagine yourself in another situation is no longer possible.
Are you empathetic to those who drive drunk?

Yup she was seized.


was not allowed to communicate with her legal representatives
What legal representatives? I bet she didn't have lawyer.
or family,
Most of the time criminals are not allowed to see their family until they are locked up and it has to be during visitation hours. In the case of being a seized illegal i don't believe the government is required to let them see their family.
saw no judge and was given no legal proceedings,
Did she ask for legal proceedings for her deportation? You know thats not required by the laws. So why do you and others keep saying stuff like that?
OK RJS330, what choice was she given? Leave her children with the government agents?
I don't know what the agents told her. And neither do you.

If it were me being the agent I would have asked what she wanted to do with her child. If she told me she wanted rhe dad to have him I would have said okay and then let the dad have him. If she said she wanted to take the child with her then that's what I would have done. Let her take the child with her.
 
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rjs330

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Honduras law is irrelevent. It was the US goverment that deported an American child, ignoring the father's petition to have the child remain with him.
What petition? I don't think the father got a court order before the mom was deported.

And the government didn't deport the child. They were nice enough to let the mom take the child with her.
 
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wing2000

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rjs330

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I'm curious, since you said the couple broke laws, what law did the father break?
I was speaking more broadly. If the father knows she's an illegal then he is participating in her status as an illegal.
as she was having appointments with immigration and attending them, which is where she was seized.
Yup and the government decided to move forward with deportation. Just because you are seeing immigration doesn't suddenly mean you are no longer an illegal. It simply means they have decided to let you stay for now, but that can be revoked at any moment.
Again, you have no issue with the father having his parental rights violated. Even if you claim it was the mother that chose to take the child out of the country
Look there us no win win here. If they forced her to leave the child without a court order then mom's parental rights are being violated. And now mom has to petition the courts. This isn't a good situation regardless. But its a chance you take when you come here illegally. Or you have someone who is legal and stays with someone who is.
she is moving some distance away which, in a previous post, you agreed isn't allowed without custody discussions and/or getting the other parent's permission.
You have to prove the intent to deny.
As for the passport, my point is it sounds like the child isn't getting a US passport while being deported. Instead, the father will somehow have to get a passport picture and the mother's signature to apply for a passport while both are in Honduras. Sure, it can still be accomplished but suddenly the process is much harder -- likely part of the intent of the administration.
See there you go. It's going to work out in a legal fashion. If mom decides to withhold rhe child then something else will have to be done.

Having a child should NOT suddenly kick in the ability for someone who is illegal to stay here. And no matter what you do, someone's parental rights are going to be an issue. It may get all worked out, so to get all worked up over someone's parental rights in this instance is nonsensical.
 
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rjs330

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Belk

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Are you empathetic to those who drive drunk?
The father can now be compared to a drunk driver huh?
Yup she was seized.
All good, right rjs330? Who cares what hardship it might cause them or heir family.
What legal representatives? I bet she didn't have lawyer.
Nor was she allowed to procure one. Nor was her husband allowed to provide her with one.
Most of the time criminals are not allowed to see their family until they are locked up and it has to be during visitation hours. In the case of being a seized illegal i don't believe the government is required to let them see their family.
Who said anything about "see"? She was not allowed contact.
Did she ask for legal proceedings for her deportation? You know thats not required by the laws. So why do you and others keep saying stuff like that?
Not sure. But given that at least one judge is pointing out you don't just get to deport American citizens without consulting the courts it looks like a little more caution was warranted.
I don't know what the agents told her. And neither do you.

Right. So it is a little rich to claim she was given a choice.

If it were me being the agent I would have asked what she wanted to do with her child. If she told me she wanted rhe dad to have him I would have said okay and then let the dad have him. If she said she wanted to take the child with her then that's what I would have done. Let her take the child with her.
If this had been an option we all know she would of left the kids with the dad. It was not an option.
 
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SimplyMe

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I was speaking more broadly. If the father knows she's an illegal then he is participating in her status as an illegal.

He is? And how is that "participating?" The government knew she was in the country, she had dates to meet with immigration, so I can't see what the father did that was wrong.

Yup and the government decided to move forward with deportation. Just because you are seeing immigration doesn't suddenly mean you are no longer an illegal. It simply means they have decided to let you stay for now, but that can be revoked at any moment.

Which has zero to do with my point, which you conveniently (or maybe deceptively) edited out. Again, the point was the father was not committing a crime, he wasn't doing anything to "hide" or prevent her from being deported.

Look there us no win win here. If they forced her to leave the child without a court order then mom's parental rights are being violated. And now mom has to petition the courts. This isn't a good situation regardless.

Yes, because of the US government that, from the facts we know, willfully violated the father's rights. We have statements that the father both tried to see his wife and hired a lawyer for his wife but the government blocked both the lawyer and the father from seeing the wife. I'm not an immigration lawyer but that seems as if it is a denial of due process (not giving a person access to their lawyer).

Additionally, the government clearly should provide a chance for the husband and wife jointly determine what will happen with the child, rather than seemingly just sending the daughter with the mother. Additionally, if they are going to deport a US citizen with the mother, they should prove a passport to the US Citizen so they can return (without the delay of doing paperwork, to include pictures, and then once submitted waiting for the processing).

But its a chance you take when you come here illegally. Or you have someone who is legal and stays with someone who is.

You have to prove the intent to deny.

See there you go. It's going to work out in a legal fashion. If mom decides to withhold rhe child then something else will have to be done.

Will it? Glad you can see the future.

Having a child should NOT suddenly kick in the ability for someone who is illegal to stay here. And no matter what you do, someone's parental rights are going to be an issue. It may get all worked out, so to get all worked up over someone's parental rights in this instance is nonsensical.

Who said the mother should have been allowed to stay -- you seem to be adding a lot of dishonesty (intentionally or not) into this reply? The point is that the government should not just automatically be sending a child, one that is a US citizen, with the mother -- particularly when they are not allowing the mother to speak to either the father or the lawyer who is hired to represent her.
 
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wing2000

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I said there was no court order. The petition itself is not a court order. Rhats what matters. The petition is irrelevant and has no legal standing to prevent what happened. Not until a judge signs an order.

I never mentioned a court order. You did.
A petition is not irrelevent.
I suggest (again) that you go back and read through the first two pages of this thread.
 
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rjs330

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The father can now be compared to a drunk driver huh?
Whoosh
Nor was she allowed to procure one.
Immigration law is different.
Who said anything about "see"? She was not allowed contact.
There isn't any requirement that she be allowed contact.
Not sure. But given that at least one judge is pointing out you don't just get to deport American citizens without consulting the courts it looks like a little more caution was warranted.
She wasnt an American citizen.
 
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rjs330

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Right. So it is a little rich to claim she was given a choice.
Yeah i think we are both off base.
If this had been an option we all know she would of left the kids with the dad. It was not an option.
I thought we had some sort of agreement that we don't really know what anyone said. Was I wrong?
 
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rjs330

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Which has zero to do with my point, which you conveniently (or maybe deceptively) edited out. Again, the point was the father was not committing a crime, he wasn't doing anything to "hide" or prevent her from being deported.

I explained what I meant. He knew she was illegal. He may have been naive. Not wise when dealing with people who shouldn't be here.
Yes, because of the US government that, from the facts we know, willfully violated the father's rights.
And if they would have taken the child from rhe mother without her permission they would have violated her rights. Like I said. There was no win.
I'm not an immigration lawyer but that seems as if it is a denial of due process (not giving a person access to their lawyer).
Then you don't really know.
Additionally, the government clearly should provide a chance for the husband and wife jointly determine what will happen with the child, rather than seemingly just sending the daughter with the mother.
What they shoild do is not the same thing as what they are required to do. The government should have deported her a while ago. But they were not required to apparently.
Additionally, if they are going to deport a US citizen
They didn't deport a US citizen.
they should prove a passport to the US Citizen so they can return (without the delay of doing paperwork, to include pictures, and then once submitted waiting for the processing).
We are back to should vs required.
Will it? Glad you can see the future.
Me too.
The point is that the government should not just automatically be sending a child, one that is a US citizen, with the mother -- particularly when they are not allowing the mother to speak to either the father or the lawyer who is hired to represent her.
Should vs required.
 
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rjs330

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I never mentioned a court order. You did.
A petition is not irrelevent.
I suggest (again) that you go back and read through the first two pages of this thread.
Don't think I'm going to do that. The petition is only a petition. Rhe government is not required to do anything just because someone files a petition.
 
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Belk

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Oh, you mean the mother is like a drunk driver?
Immigration law is different.
Is it? You can be denied a lawyer or legal representation with immigration law?
There isn't any requirement that she be allowed contact.

Ah. So your claim is that the US government can hold people completely incommunicado? Care to document where you came up with this gem of legal advice?

She wasnt an American citizen.
As has been pointed out on numerous occasions, including by a Trump appointed federal judge, the child with her was and you don't get to just ship them off without consulting the father.
 
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Belk

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Yeah i think we are both off base.

I thought we had some sort of agreement that we don't really know what anyone said. Was I wrong?
You think, if given the option to leave the child with the father, this mother is going to decide "You know what, no let me take these kids with me to the third world where I have no money, no support, and no idea what is going to happen." That is a choice you think she is going to make?
 
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SimplyMe

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I explained what I meant. He knew she was illegal. He may have been naive. Not wise when dealing with people who shouldn't be here.

So maybe naive, maybe she didn't tell him her immigration status until after they were in later stages of their relationship; you are just assuming wrongdoing and "criminality" on his part.

And if they would have taken the child from rhe mother without her permission they would have violated her rights. Like I said. There was no win.

Again, I didn't say that -- you really need to quit twisting my words around to try and make your claims sound "better."

Then you don't really know.

What they shoild do is not the same thing as what they are required to do. The government should have deported her a while ago. But they were not required to apparently.

Oh, you are familiar with the details of her case and why she wasn't deported earlier?

They didn't deport a US citizen.

They deported the US citizen child, complete with not providing her with her US Passport. Yes, you'll try and claim they just "let her go" with the mother but that isn't really accurate -- or else they would have let both parents decide, let the lawyer speak with her mother, sent her with a passport, etc.

We are back to should vs required.

Me too.

Should vs required.

So you claim but pretty sure you aren't an expert in immigration law, either. Regardless, it is wrong when the father, who shares custody, goes to court to keep his child in the country, for the government to ignore that and hurry and remove the child to a country it has never been before.

And for the claim that the mother wanted the child to stay with her, as pointed out; it is illogical to think that a mother who is being deported, has no income in her old country, no housing, etc. would want to talk her child where she doesn't know how she will feed her child, where she will put it to bed -- where instead she knows the child will be well fed and cared for, and in familiar surroundings, if given to the father.
 
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