• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Are Folks Making America Hate Again?

MrMoe

Part-Time Breatharian
Sep 13, 2011
6,336
3,794
Moe's Tavern
✟187,709.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
The scapegoat mechanism is the result of magical or pre-rational thinking, it doesn't rely upon that chain of logic. Girard assumes that human motivations aren't primarily based on rationality, but passions like narcissism, greed, envy, etc.
I know, but so far no evidence has been presented that the scapegoat mechanism is occurring among these alleged haters of these groups.
 
Upvote 0

MrMoe

Part-Time Breatharian
Sep 13, 2011
6,336
3,794
Moe's Tavern
✟187,709.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
In what way is seeking equality racism? Women and minorities have long found it harder to obtain equal jobs in America. Publicly admitting this and publicly trying to equal out the balance seems to be a good thing. Does it sometimes go too far? Probably But the Trump administration is doing a full-scale reversal of attempts to equal things out. It appears to often be fueled by hatred for women and minorities.

The E in DEI stands for equity, and from what I’ve learned, equity and equality are considered different things.

What do you mean by “equal out the balance”? You want an even 50/50 split among men and women, and among white people and minorities in every job?

Do you have any evidence that this pushback is often fueled by hatred?
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,970
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟533,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
What do you mean by “equal out the balance”? You want an even 50/50 split among men and women, and among white people and minorities in every job?

No, I’m not calling for an exact 50/50 split among men and women, or among white people and minorities in every job. That would be unrealistic and, in many cases, unfair.

What I am advocating for is equal opportunity—meaning that every person, regardless of their race, sex, or background, should have a fair shot at being hired, promoted, or recognized based on their skills, talents, and character.

Historically, women and minorities have often been overlooked or faced barriers that others did not. Efforts to "equal out the balance" are about removing those barriers and making sure the playing field is genuinely level—not about enforcing quotas or setting artificial targets.

In short, it’s not about guaranteeing equal results for every group. It’s about guaranteeing equal access and fair consideration for everyone.

I believe that most people can agree on this principle: reward the best-qualified candidates while making sure everyone gets a fair chance to compete.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,437
20,734
Orlando, Florida
✟1,508,866.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I know, but so far no evidence has been presented that the scapegoat mechanism is occurring among these alleged haters of these groups.

How about the fact the majority of jobs in the US haven't been lost due to foreigners or immigrants taking them, but simply due to automation? That's at least suggestive that people are engaged in seeking out a scapegoat.
 
Upvote 0

Aryeh Jay

Replaced by a robot, just like Biden.
Site Supporter
Jul 19, 2012
17,622
16,251
MI - Michigan
✟664,536.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
How about the fact the majority of jobs in the US haven't been lost due to foreigners or immigrants taking them, but simply due to automation? That's at least suggestive that people are engaged in seeking out a scapegoat.

And where are these robot components made? Chi-Nahh
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,970
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟533,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
so far no evidence has been presented that the scapegoat mechanism is occurring among these alleged haters of these groups.

Just to clarify, I wasn’t trying to accuse anyone personally of scapegoating, nor was I claiming that every criticism of DEI is automatically scapegoating.

I was suggesting that the reactions I see today may reflect a broader pattern that often happens in times of economic hardship and uncertainty.

Historically, when times get tough, people often look for someone or something to blame. That’s a very human reaction. Sometimes frustration and anger are directed at vulnerable groups such as minorities, immigrants, women, or political opponents.

There’s good historical evidence of this pattern. For example:
We can't always point to one simple study proving exactly how these dynamics are playing out today. But history gives us strong reason to be cautious — and to recognize that similar patterns may be contributing to the anger we sometimes see today toward DEI recipients, immigrants, or other groups.

The real problems we face — inflation, stagnant wages, job instability — are complex and systemic. Blaming vulnerable groups doesn’t solve those problems. We need to respond to hardship not with anger and scapegoating, but with wisdom, compassion, and a focus on real solutions.
 
Upvote 0

MrMoe

Part-Time Breatharian
Sep 13, 2011
6,336
3,794
Moe's Tavern
✟187,709.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
No, I’m not calling for an exact 50/50 split among men and women, or among white people and minorities in every job. That would be unrealistic and, in many cases, unfair.

What I am advocating for is equal opportunity—meaning that every person, regardless of their race, sex, or background, should have a fair shot at being hired, promoted, or recognized based on their skills, talents, and character.

Historically, women and minorities have often been overlooked or faced barriers that others did not. Efforts to "equal out the balance" are about removing those barriers and making sure the playing field is genuinely level—not about enforcing quotas or setting artificial targets.

In short, it’s not about guaranteeing equal results for every group. It’s about guaranteeing equal access and fair consideration for everyone.

I believe that most people can agree on this principle: reward the best-qualified candidates while making sure everyone gets a fair chance to compete.

How do you know equal opportunity doesn’t already exist? It was was true historically, but in the present we see people of different races, sex, and backgrounds being given a fair shot at being hired, promoted, or recognized based on their skills, talents, and character.
 
Upvote 0

MrMoe

Part-Time Breatharian
Sep 13, 2011
6,336
3,794
Moe's Tavern
✟187,709.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
How about the fact the majority of jobs in the US haven't been lost due to foreigners or immigrants taking them, but simply due to automation? That's at least suggestive that people are engaged in seeking out a scapegoat.

Pretty sure the issue is specifically illegal immigrants taking jobs. For the most part I see Americans have no issue with legal immigrants or foreigners getting jobs in America. And automation is also a concern alongside illegal immigrants taking jobs.
 
Upvote 0

MrMoe

Part-Time Breatharian
Sep 13, 2011
6,336
3,794
Moe's Tavern
✟187,709.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Just to clarify, I wasn’t trying to accuse anyone personally of scapegoating, nor was I claiming that every criticism of DEI is automatically scapegoating.

I was suggesting that the reactions I see today may reflect a broader pattern that often happens in times of economic hardship and uncertainty.

Historically, when times get tough, people often look for someone or something to blame. That’s a very human reaction. Sometimes frustration and anger are directed at vulnerable groups such as minorities, immigrants, women, or political opponents.

There’s good historical evidence of this pattern. For example:
We can't always point to one simple study proving exactly how these dynamics are playing out today. But history gives us strong reason to be cautious — and to recognize that similar patterns may be contributing to the anger we sometimes see today toward DEI recipients, immigrants, or other groups.

The real problems we face — inflation, stagnant wages, job instability — are complex and systemic. Blaming vulnerable groups doesn’t solve those problems. We need to respond to hardship not with anger and scapegoating, but with wisdom, compassion, and a focus on real solutions.

So basically, it may or may not be happening. We can’t be sure.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,437
20,734
Orlando, Florida
✟1,508,866.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
So basically, it may or may not be happening. We can’t be sure.

We can be reasonably sure based on extrapolating the past into the present.
 
Upvote 0

stevil

Godless and without morals
Feb 5, 2011
8,548
6,729
✟293,653.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
How do you know equal opportunity doesn’t already exist? It was was true historically, but in the present we see people of different races, sex, and backgrounds being given a fair shot at being hired, promoted, or recognized based on their skills, talents, and character.
How many non white male presidents has USA ever had?
What percentage of SCOTUS Justices have been non white male?
What percentage of the current USA administration are non white male? as a clue 16% are female, 16% are non white.

What percentage of people on the executive board of the top USA companies are non white male?
Here are the top 50 Fortune 500 company CEOs
diversity-fortune-50-ceos-over-time-6_1200.png
 
  • Like
Reactions: doubtingmerle
Upvote 0

BCP1928

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2024
8,703
4,366
82
Goldsboro NC
✟261,841.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Pretty sure the issue is specifically illegal immigrants taking jobs. For the most part I see Americans have no issue with legal immigrants or foreigners getting jobs in America. And automation is also a concern alongside illegal immigrants taking jobs.
Except for the Christian Nationalist MAGA Christians, who see a lot of brown Roman Catholics, legal or not, as a threat to their political agenda.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Larniavc
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,970
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟533,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Pretty sure the issue is specifically illegal immigrants taking jobs. For the most part I see Americans have no issue with legal immigrants or foreigners getting jobs in America. And automation is also a concern alongside illegal immigrants taking jobs.
It seems to me that you are worrying about a problem that largely does not exist.

Employers cannot legally hire someone without a valid TIN (Taxpayer Identification Number) or SSN (Social Security Number), which are used to report payroll taxes. A person here illegally typically does not have a valid SSN or TIN—or if they present one fraudulently, it can often be traced back to a legitimate holder or flagged. Without proper documentation, the only way an employer could pay an undocumented worker is "under the table," avoiding payroll taxes — which is illegal. Any sizable company engaging in widespread under-the-table employment would put itself in serious legal jeopardy, facing civil fines and potential criminal penalties.

So no, I don't think companies like General Motors are hiring large numbers of undocumented immigrants and bypassing tax laws.

Now, some grandmothers might be paying gardeners under the table and avoiding taxes, but I don't see a big need to commit large law enforcement efforts to trivial things like this. Do you?

On the other hand, there are many non-citizens here legally doing many useful jobs in society. That is why they are here. And, as you write, we don't have an issue with that.

However, the pushback against the supposed undocumented immigrants taking our jobs can be so strong that many immigrants who are here legally get entangled with deportation threats.

This is what I refer to as an unjustified enmity—or even hatred—for other groups. Good people get hurt as if they are illegally taking your job, and that hurts everybody.
 
Upvote 0

MrMoe

Part-Time Breatharian
Sep 13, 2011
6,336
3,794
Moe's Tavern
✟187,709.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
We can be reasonably sure based on extrapolating the past into the present.

You’re committing the extrapolation fallacy by assuming a trend from the past is continuing in the present, not taking into account the fact that trends change or stop. Also not taking into account the fact that science and knowledge has increased. That is why it’s highly unlikely that there are Americans that hate these groups unconnected to them because they are “doing it tough”, at least en masse.
 
Upvote 0

MrMoe

Part-Time Breatharian
Sep 13, 2011
6,336
3,794
Moe's Tavern
✟187,709.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
How many non white male presidents has USA ever had?
What percentage of SCOTUS Justices have been non white male?
What percentage of the current USA administration are non white male? as a clue 16% are female, 16% are non white.

What percentage of people on the executive board of the top USA companies are non white male?
Here are the top 50 Fortune 500 company CEOs
diversity-fortune-50-ceos-over-time-6_1200.png

I thought this wasn’t about enforcing racial or gender quotas, setting artificial targets or guaranteeing equal results for every group?
I thought it was about guaranteeing equal access and fair consideration for everyone now. True, that wasn’t the case in the past but that is no longer the case now.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Lukaris
Upvote 0

MrMoe

Part-Time Breatharian
Sep 13, 2011
6,336
3,794
Moe's Tavern
✟187,709.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
It seems to me that you are worrying about a problem that largely does not exist.

Employers cannot legally hire someone without a valid TIN (Taxpayer Identification Number) or SSN (Social Security Number), which are used to report payroll taxes. A person here illegally typically does not have a valid SSN or TIN—or if they present one fraudulently, it can often be traced back to a legitimate holder or flagged. Without proper documentation, the only way an employer could pay an undocumented worker is "under the table," avoiding payroll taxes — which is illegal. Any sizable company engaging in widespread under-the-table employment would put itself in serious legal jeopardy, facing civil fines and potential criminal penalties.

So no, I don't think companies like General Motors are hiring large numbers of undocumented immigrants and bypassing tax laws.

Now, some grandmothers might be paying gardeners under the table and avoiding taxes, but I don't see a big need to commit large law enforcement efforts to trivial things like this. Do you?

On the other hand, there are many non-citizens here legally doing many useful jobs in society. That is why they are here. And, as you write, we don't have an issue with that.

However, the pushback against the supposed undocumented immigrants taking our jobs can be so strong that many immigrants who are here legally get entangled with deportation threats.

This is what I refer to as an unjustified enmity—or even hatred—for other groups. Good people get hurt as if they are illegally taking your job, and that hurts everybody.
Not really my worry but some American people’s worry.

Here are some stats from 2017 which show which jobs illegal immigrants have taken.

The percentages would like have increased now since Biden’s term.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
33,437
20,734
Orlando, Florida
✟1,508,866.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
You’re committing the extrapolation fallacy by assuming a trend from the past is continuing in the present, not taking into account the fact that trends change or stop. Also not taking into account the fact that science and knowledge has increased. That is why it’s highly unlikely that there are Americans that hate these groups unconnected to them because they are “doing it tough”, at least en masse.

I am well aware of the fallacy. It's more about prudence than strict certitude, short of evidence to the contrary, it's safer to assume the past will continue into the future.
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,970
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟533,173.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Not really my worry but some American people’s worry.

Here are some stats from 2017 which show which jobs illegal immigrants have taken.

The percentages would like have increased now since Biden’s term.

Thanks. It sure looks like a lot of undocumented workers are employed here. I wasn't aware of that. BTW, a later version of the link you provided says 12.7% of agricultural workers are undocumented.

I am really confused how this happens. It is illegal to hire undocumented workers. A company can be in serious legal jeopardy for doing this. My research so far says there are two common ways this still gets done: either the undocumented worker submits fraudulent documentation, or the employer treats the worker as a contractor.

If the worker is hired fraudulently as a worker, the worker needs to submit a SSN or TIN. If the number is fraudulent, payroll taxes get taken out to that fraudulent number. What happens at tax time? According to ChatGPT (not the best source, I know, but that is what I found):

What Happens When the Worker Is Using a Fraudulent SSN:​


  1. During the year:
    • Employer withholds taxes and issues a W-2 using the SSN the worker provided (even if it's fake or stolen).
    • Taxes are sent to the IRS and Social Security Administration under that SSN.
  2. At tax time (January–April):
    • The employer sends a copy of the W-2 to the IRS.
    • The IRS expects a tax return (1040) from whoever owns that SSN.
    • If the real owner of the SSN is a dead person, or a child, or someone unaware, no tax return shows up for that W-2.

Result:


  • The IRS sees a W-2 attached to an SSN... but no matching 1040 tax return.
  • The IRS basically parks that tax money and flags the record.
  • The Social Security Administration puts the wages into a "suspense account" because it cannot properly assign the earnings to any living worker.

  1. What happens next?
    • Usually, nothing happens to the employer or the worker, unless there’s an audit or the fraud is somehow detected.
    • The government keeps the withheld taxes — and the undocumented worker never gets a refund, nor can they claim Social Security benefits later.
    • It’s essentially "free" tax money for the government.

So apparently the tax money gets taken out without ever being reconciled with a 1040 return. The government is getting tax money, so it is happy. The company gets good labor, so it is happy. The undocumented worker is getting paid much more than he would elsewhere, so he is happy. Everybody is happy, so nobody complains. Cheers!

If, on the other hand, the company hires the undocumented worker as a "contractor", the government apparently issues that "contractor" an ITIN for tax identification purposes and taxes get deducted. Again, the government apparently does not check if any of this is documented in legitimate business tax returns. The government gets taxes, the company get a good worker, the worker gets paid, and everybody apparently looks the other way.

Anyway, that is what I am finding. If anybody has further insight into this, please share.

That is a long sidetrack to get to the point. OK, undocumented workers are being hired. Now, the question is, what should be done about it? My suggestion is that all of this should be cleaned up. Some undocumented workers could be approved to continue working, getting paid, and filing taxes, but with very limited government benefits. Perhaps there should be some additional penalty imposed due to the fact that this person basically jumped in line, getting into the system ahead of others that waited. On the other hand, other undocumented workers could get deported.

And how do we decide who gets what treatment? I would call on two basic principles: Show mercy and be just. I personally would put more emphasis on showing mercy than being just, but both are important. How does that all work out? That is above my pay grade.

Others are far more interested in the justice aspect when dealing with undocumented workers. "Those workers jumped in line. Get them out of here." But that strategy could be immensely harmful to the government who is collecting all those taxes; to the companies that get all those good workers; and to the undocumented workers and their families that are doing much better here than they would elsewhere.

If we were to insist on extreme retribution against these workers without mercy, then that looks more to me like "Make America Hate Again" instead of "Make America Great Again".
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BCP1928

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2024
8,703
4,366
82
Goldsboro NC
✟261,841.00
Country
United States
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
It seems to me that you are worrying about a problem that largely does not exist.

Employers cannot legally hire someone without a valid TIN (Taxpayer Identification Number) or SSN (Social Security Number), which are used to report payroll taxes. A person here illegally typically does not have a valid SSN or TIN—or if they present one fraudulently, it can often be traced back to a legitimate holder or flagged. Without proper documentation, the only way an employer could pay an undocumented worker is "under the table," avoiding payroll taxes — which is illegal. Any sizable company engaging in widespread under-the-table employment would put itself in serious legal jeopardy, facing civil fines and potential criminal penalties.
Not for politically cooperative business owners. Their HR departments handle all the details The only time it becomes difficult is if an illegal is involved in a serious industrial accident that can't be covered up, especially a child, because then other LEOs besides ICE get involved. I do notice that places like Alabama are rolling back their child labor laws. Guess why?
So no, I don't think companies like General Motors are hiring large numbers of undocumented immigrants and bypassing tax laws.
Not companies with strong unions, no.
Now, some grandmothers might be paying gardeners under the table and avoiding taxes, but I don't see a big need to commit large law enforcement efforts to trivial things like this. Do you?

On the other hand, there are many non-citizens here legally doing many useful jobs in society. That is why they are here. And, as you write, we don't have an issue with that.

However, the pushback against the supposed undocumented immigrants taking our jobs can be so strong that many immigrants who are here legally get entangled with deportation threats.

This is what I refer to as an unjustified enmity—or even hatred—for other groups. Good people get hurt as if they are illegally taking your job, and that hurts everybody.
Whose job? Not mine. I'm a workforce development trainer, working for many different companies as a consultant. What I have described to you is what is actually happening, I've seen it myself.
 
Upvote 0