Biblical Cosmology

[Apple Sky]

It is obvious to us, in the 21st century, because we know about the atmospheric pressure and about the space.

Do we ?

 

[truthpls]

It is obvious to us, in the 21st century, because we know about the atmospheric pressure and about the space.

I would think it was obvious to Adam also, who was far smarter than people today. Name any of the Fathers of prophets who said anything that suggests they thought the sky was solid!? Smart people see stars and heavenly bodies moving.

For a bronze/iron age culture the only explanation of how the things stick above their heads without falling down was a solid plate above the Earth. With holes for rain.

No. Sorry. That is like an old wives tale to try and make God and men of old look mentally challenged

 

[David Lamb]

The Legend of the Jews BY LOUIS GINZBERG

The firmament is not the same as the heavens of the first day. It is the crystal stretched forth over the heads of the Hayyot, from which the heavens derive their light, as the earth derives its light from the sun. This firmament saves the earth from being engulfed by the waters of the heavens; it forms the partition between the waters above and the waters below. It was made to crystallize into the solid it is by the heavenly fire, which broke its bounds, and condensed the surface of the firmament. Thus fire made a division between the celestial and the terrestrial at the time of creation, as it did at the revelation on Mount Sinai. The firmament is not more than three fingers thick, nevertheless it divides two such heavy bodies as the waters below, which are the foundations for the world, and the waters above, which are the foundations for the seven heavens, the Divine Throne, and the abode of the angels, the stars.

I reckon Ginzberg to be half right.

Well, I would view his work with extreme caution. I found it available online at The Legends of the Jews — Volume 1 and it opens:

"In the beginning, two thousand years before the heaven and the earth, seven things were created: the Torah written with black fire on white fire, and lying in the lap of God; the Divine Throne, erected in the heaven which later was over the heads of the Hayyot; Paradise on the right side of God, Hell on the left side; the Celestial Sanctuary directly in front of God, having a jewel on its altar graven with the Name of the Messiah, and a Voice that cries aloud, "Return, ye children of men."

When God resolved upon the creation of the world, He took counsel with the Torah. Her advice was this: "O Lord, a king without an army and without courtiers and attendants hardly deserves the name of king, for none is nigh to express the homage due to him." The answer pleased God exceedingly. Thus did He teach all earthly kings, by His Divine example, to undertake naught without first consulting advisers."

The idea of the Torah being a person, and that God took advice from the Torah when creating, is totally unbiblical.

 

[Apple Sky]

Well, I would view his work with extreme caution.

I do, I tend to view his work with an open mind this is I why I stated Ginzberg to be half right.

 

[David Lamb]

I do, I tend to view his work with an open mind this is I why I stated Ginzberg to be half right.

How will you tell which parts are right? Hopefully by Scripture, so why not go to completely right Scripture rather than half right Ginzberg in the first place?

 

[trophy33]

I would think it was obvious to Adam also, who was far smarter than people today. Name any of the Fathers of prophets who said anything that suggests they thought the sky was solid!? Smart people see stars and heavenly bodies moving.

No. Sorry. That is like an old wives tale to try and make God and men of old look mentally challenged

I do not even know where to begin.

Do you know anything about history and about old cultures and civilizations, like Sumer, Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, China, India, Americas, Greece, Rome...?
About their literature, myths, cosmology, limitations of their knowledge, beliefs?

Because your reasoning is very strange. Don´t you know how the scientific discoveries came one after another in time and most of them since the age of rationalism (roughly the 17th century Europe)?

I hope it is taught in the US schools in history and literature. Even in the school subjects like physics, mathematics, chemistry, biology etc there are usually some historical introductions, so you should be able to put it into some time context. Please, do not tell me that the US education is so terrible. And even if it were, have you never watched some historical documentaries or read some books talking about it?

 

[Apple Sky]

How will you tell which parts are right? Hopefully by Scripture, so why not go to completely right Scripture rather than half right Ginsberg in the first place?

Because Ginsberg is right most of the time.

 

[truthpls]

I do not even know where to begin.

Do you know anything about history and about old cultures and civilizations, like Sumer, Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, China, India, Americas, Greece, Rome...?
About their literature, myths, cosmology, limitations of their knowledge, beliefs?

I know what God said. I see nothing about a solid heavens? I see nothing from Moses saying that? Elijah? Do you think that sun that stopped in the sky was thought to be in some sort of metal plate or whatever? Which of God's people said anything like that!?

Because your reasoning is very strange. Don´t you know how the scientific discoveries came one after another in time and most of them since the age of rationalism (roughly the 17th century Europe)?

? Did you imagine there was some 'scientific' discovery that showed the sky was cast iron or metal?

I hope it is taught in the US schools in history and literature. Even in the school subjects like physics, mathematics, chemistry, biology etc there are usually some historical introductions, so you should be able to put it into some time context.

You hope what is taught, exactly? That some brilliant Europeans or others actually thought the sky was metal!?

here is what should be taught over there, that the bible never said that space (where the sun and stars are) was solid. Anyone in history from any area on earth that said such foolishness were not speaking for Good or for believers. They were confused and probably not too bright either.

 

[trophy33]

I know what God said. I see nothing about a solid heavens? I see nothing from Moses saying that? Elijah? Do you think that sun that stopped in the sky was thought to be in some sort of metal plate or whatever? Which of God's people said anything like that!?

? Did you imagine there was some 'scientific' discovery that showed the sky was cast iron or metal?

You hope what is taught, exactly? That some brilliant Europeans or others actually thought the sky was metal!?

here is what should be taught over there, that the bible never said that space (where the sun and stars are) was solid. Anyone in history from any area on earth that said such foolishness were not speaking for Good or for believers. They were confused and probably not too bright either.

Well, because it seems you lack the basic knowledge about the past and how the human civilizations developed and discoveries happened one after another, there is no common ground we can stay on to talk about what ancient texts mean.

 

[truthpls]

Well, because it seems you lack the basic knowledge about the past and how the human civilizations developed and discoveries happened one after another, there is no common ground we can stay on to talk about what ancient texts mean.

There is nothing in any text that overrules God or the bible. The biblical cosmology is as follows. God created the heavens and earth. We always knew that the sun and moon and stars and other bodies in the sky moved. No one ever thought it was metal or solid on our end, regardless of what some confused ancient writes said.

There are even many ancient astrological sites and writings that confirm men knew it all moved in regular patterns. It is foolishness to think they thought all the stars and moon and sun were somehow embedded in a solid metal like heavens.

 

[stevevw]

I think back in the times when Genesis was written people understood the universe and everything that existed within the world in which they lived. The sky above and especially the sun and moon were part of what created the worldview that we were at the center of the universe. Its an obvious belief for that time because they did not know if there was a beyond the sky they could see.

It wasn't a scientific worldview though it had some basis in science through nature such as crop growing and navigation ect. But this was also seen as from the sky gods that governed the seasons, moon and sun.

I think rather that the bible being a scientific explaination though some could say that something like God stretching out the heavens can relate to the exspansion of the universe, of space with Inflation theory.

But primarily I think the overiding sense of the earth being at the center of the universe and everything was more spiritual. If the sky gods were looking down on earths inhabitants then they must be the center of attention. Everything is made for humans and governed by the gods.

So it makes sense spiritually that the biblical authors would see the local as the universal and everything. The experience of their world under the dome seemed like the center of the universe.

In some ways it was. Even with todays knowledge of an expansive universe far beyond what ancient people could comprehend it still seems like we are the center of the universe in some weird way. The dome has just got bigger. In fact has become unlimited.

That we are the ones measuring and discovering this unlimited universe around us makes sense that we are at the center spiritually and experiencially because there is no other perspective.

Which comes back to the bible not being a scientific explanation but a spiritual or experiencial aspect of reality. Yet still being within Gods creation order and laws that govern the universe whether local or universal. As we have discovered in science we can't take the observer out of the equation and theres more to reality than what we see.

Who knows what the universe entails in the end. If it goes on forever then we are at the center because theres no other vantage point lol.

 

[FaithT]

View attachment 364145

I still find it difficult to believe that there are actually people who believe in a flat earth.

 

[DamianWarS]

Genesis 1:1: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth".

This is not a creative act, it is an introductory statement. The entire account is written in a chiastic pattern where each concept/verse has an opening and a mirror close, they can operate like 2 sides on one coin and both can inform the other of things like meaning and broadly it's goal. One of the easy parallels that shows this is Gen 1:1 and Gen 2:1.

1:1 In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth...
2:1 Thus the heavens and earth were created....

if 2:1 is a conclusionary statement, then 1:1 is it's parallel,l which means it is an introductory statement. It's is the opening of the action, but is not saying at the moment God created the heavens and the earth. Based on the account and common ancient thinking, the heavens and the earth predate the account and are articulated in 1:2 as unformed, void and of darkness. But and this is not a problem for an ancient mindset but more a problem with western abstract thinking.

Ex-nilo is an abstract concept, an ancient mindset would not approach anything from ex-nilo, When you build something, you use pre-existing materials to build with and the same goes with creation. Look at how man is created, it is not just "poof" there is a man, instead man is formed out of the dust, a very compatible concept with the hebrew word of creation. The word for creation is rooted with a concept of filling up or even fattening, like stuffing a pillow. The pillow case was already there, you're just filling it uo, So in the beginning, the sky was filled up, but the sky was already there.

Day 1, 2, and 3 the creation action doesn't happen. God instead organized the pre-existing materials. The darkness, the waters and the land, which is all laid out in 1:2 as the materials pre-existing the account that are used in day 1, 2, and 3 and are separated, organized and prepared to the filling up. Where day 4, 5, 6 the act of creation happens (the filling up part). but again, it is like a filling up over a ex-nilo. day 4 the sky is filled up with the sun, moon, stars. What is filled up was previously organized in day 1. Day 2 the waters are organized and day 5 the waters are filled with birds for the waters above and fish for the waters below. Day 3 the land is separated from the waters and day 6 the land is filled with creatures.

day 7 is a parallel with before light is spoken. nothing is created on day 7, it is rather upon the onset of completed work ushers in day 7. God does not rest because he is tired, he ceased work and he ceased because the work is finished. Day 7 parallels before light is spoken and we can see contrasts like darkness/light, incomplete/complete, choas/rest, unformed/formed, unfinished/finished, empty/filled etc... the 7th day is presented as the answer to this unformed void. the whole account is a powerful salvation metaphor.

All of these parallels each other and there is nothing left unparalleled. It reveals to us 1:1 does not describe a created act but rather a summary of the account to take place or introduction. This may challenge some traditional doctrine developed from looking at 1:1 as when God first created. We don't like leaving questions like where did the heavens and earth come from? this is a modern western phenomenon/problem, not an issue with ancient people groups. These things simply did not keep people awake at night. we should not be approaching this like a western abstract thinker, but rather how would an ancient Hebrew newly escaped out of Egypt approach this account? what is the purpose of it?

It's immediate purpose acts as a polemic to competing pagan cosmology (like Egyptian), this account is about emphasizing monotheistic values and showing that there are no competing powers, God is responsible for it all. The word used for God in the account is "Elohim" which literally means "powers". It also shows a salvation metaphor which should be pretty obvious when light is spoken into darkness. Christ calls himself the light of the world, John 1 is a parallel of Gen 1 and Paul shows us this metaphor as well in 2 Cor 4:6. The account simply is not goal-driven the same way as a Western abstract thinker would be not should be approach it that way. I'm not saying it's not literal, but rather the litteralness of the account is the most uninteresting part and I would much rather talk about it's spiritual meaning and what the chaistic patterns can show us.

 

[Semper-Fi]

Biblical cosmology refers to the biblical writers' understanding of the cosmos...

cos·mol·o·gy
[käzˈmäləjē]
noun
the [science of] the origin and development of the universe.

Can you name any bible authors that where scientists?

 

[Apple Sky]

cos·mol·o·gy
[käzˈmäləjē]
noun
the [science of] the origin and development of the universe.

Can you name any bible authors that where scientists?

God himself -

 

[Semper-Fi]

And for signs, time &, seasons and each giving off their own light.

The moon does not give its own light.

Why Can You See the Moon During the Day? We Asked a NASA Scientist: Episode 19 - NASA

Why can you see the Moon during the day? Easy, because it’s there! It may seem odd to look up at the daytime sky and see the Moon but it’s perfectly natural.

www.nasa.gov

 

[Apple Sky]

The moon does not give its own light.

God says it does, that's good enough for me.

 

[trophy33]

God himself -

View attachment 365539

A Bible print is not God, this is idolatry.

 

[FaithT]

God himself -

View attachment 365539

Besides God. I can’t believe I have to say this.

 

[Apple Sky]

Besides God. I can’t believe I have to say this.

I can't believe you had to ask.