Only Three Are Tormented Eternally

[Hoping2]

Everyone who is saved thinks they are only a sheep when any casual glance will yield the fact that exactly zero saved people always and only do sheep works and do in fact also do goat works.

As no man will be declared "saved" until the day of judgement, your point is moot.

Basic lesson here is that we all remain sinners after salvation no matter how hard we try to prove otherwise.

I disagree.
Some have truly turned from sin and now walk in the Spirit...in the light.

Jesus could look at any of us and speak to the tempter, the deceiver, just as He did with Peter because we are all engaged in a wrestling match, a battle with a real enemy and that battle is internal, just as the warrior equipment is internal, Eph. 6:11

I disagree.
Some have really crucified the flesh (with the affections and lusts) and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Thanks be to God !

 

[Hoping2]

Christ calls the Lake of Fire the Second Death. Which coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28 that we are to fear the one that can destroy (fully in the Greek) both body and soul in hell. Which also coincides with the teachings in Malachi that the wicked will be burned up, leaving neither root or branch.

Everlasting destruction.

If it is everlasting, it has no end.

If God has no pleasure that the wicked should perish (which is why he is so long suffering) why would he have pleasure in seeing them tormented forever? That makes no sense. Throughout the entire Bible it's always been a matter of life or death. The wages of sin is death period.
But believe what you will....

I believe in an eternal after life.
Either in heaven or in the lake of fire.

 

[Hoping2]

Could you please show me the scripture that says reconciliation can only happen while in the mortal body. I can find none, but there are examples of it happening in scripture.

I use Heb. 9:27..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
Life, and judgement.
Not, life, a second chance, and judgement.
Man has an entire life span to turn from sin and unto God.
What makes one think that after death, they would behave any differently than how thy lived ?

 

[CoreyD]

Except to answer two questions, , what is your translation used in your post for Rev 1:1,

If you take the time to listen to people, you will hear them answer you.
When you don't do that, you will only hear yourself.

Everyone but you can see, I answered your two questions in the post you are ignoring.

And you wonder why you are being ignored?
I guess I will have to make it official.

Being ignored by you Mr. M, would only make me wonder why you would want to have a nature of not listening to people.
I'm sure you agree that's not good. So, why would you want to practice such a bad thing.

What that is Mr. M, is the opposite of what Jesus wants us to be.
And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:2, 3
So, if I were you, I'd work on it. Pride tends to make us hyper emotional.... and you aren't currently showing yourself reasonable.

I'm saying this... not to tear you down, but to lift you up, because I want you to be the best you can be. so, I won't soften my words.
I do hope you swallow that pride, and read the post, so that you can respond, on the answers to your questions.

 

[All Becomes New]

ECT for the unsaved is a cruel lie against the Lord,

and such who hold this belief are anathema, deceived

How do you know ETC is unfair? Are you God?

Matthew 26:23-24
"He replied, “The one who dipped his hand with me in the bowl—he will betray me. The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for him if he had not been born.”"

1 Peter 4:18
"And if a righteous person is saved with difficulty,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

 

[CoreyD]

One more thing, @Mr. M.
Say you are talking about the benefits of chocolate, and you went into detail about why black chocolate is healthy.
Someone takes out 7% of what you said, to focus on one ingredient - milk. Then turns around and tells you no chocolate is has health benefits.
That person has ignored all the evidence you gave as to the benefits, and basically just said 'No. There are no benefits to any chocolate.'

What would you think of that person.?
You did exactly what they did.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

As no man will be declared "saved" until the day of judgement, your point is moot.

Then your form of faith is merely perpetual doubt, never knowing. Always putting on a act so your maybe might be someday, maybe.

I disagree.
Some have truly turned from sin and now walk in the Spirit...in the light.

The evil present in exactly no one does the above. That's part of the deception we all carry.

The heart is deceiving, above all things. This fact doesn't change when we are "born again" or "believe." Jer. 17:9

We simply know or are supposed to know our state and are enabled to "tell the truth" about it, whereas prior we were entirely blinded by the god of this world. Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8

I disagree.
Some have really crucified the flesh (with the affections and lusts) and been raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
Thanks be to God !

And I don't believe there are any sinless persons, but a whole of of deceivers still attached to people who claim it to be so

 

[CoreyD]

If it is everlasting, it has no end.

Destruction has no end.
This is why when death is hurled into the lake of fire, it is forever destroyed... as the other things hurled there... including Satan.

I believe in an eternal after life.
Either in heaven or in the lake of fire.

Yes. Eternity in the second death. That's where everything in opposition to God will be. Destroyed forever.
To us, that may be, like if something vanished. To God, destruction is before him, as something exiting. So it is everlasting.
This is why what goes into everlasting destruction is likened to being tormented, because everything that is destroyed eternally, is before God, forever.

Until people accept that the lake of fire isn't a literal lake of fire, as the angel plainly explained, they will continue to see people alive forever... which isn't taught in the Bible.
It won't happen though. Circular reasoning will keep people in the cycle of eternal life in torments.

 

[David Lamb]

As no man will be declared "saved" until the day of judgement, your point is moot.

Did the jailer at Philippi know he was saved? We read:

“And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."” (Ac 16:30-31 NKJV)

They didn't say, "You may perhaps be saved, but there is no certainty about your salvation until the day of judgement."

However, I may have misunderstood your post, in which case, I apologise.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

But unbelief is a sin. Think of the first sin in the Garden of Eden. The devil, in the form of the serpent, cast doubt into Eve's mind: ""Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?" (Genesis 3:1). The serpent went on to say:

“Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.” (Ge 3:4 NKJV)

Eve believed him, and in doing so, did not believe God.

One of my favorite conundrums. "You may eat freely BUT"

Is there such a thing as "freely BUT?"

I even wonder if God Himself has a freely BUT list for Himself? OR can God basically get by with anything and make good come about from it?

Pondering from the dust

It is interesting that the "law," "Do not eat" only came to Adam and Adam MUST have accounted it to Eve. And either she or Adam in recounting seem to have "added" to it with the term: "We may not touch it." Seems like one or both of them were over reacting, and rightfully so.

So much for works and good intentions

Genesis 3:3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Seems to me said fall transpired a bit earlier than the infamous teeth in the flesh of the fruit. The lie showed up first, as did a host of other sins, such as the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life, all of the world and not of God. 1 John 2:16 nails this event when coupled with:

Genesis 3:6
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

I'd suggest Adam with Eve still inside of him FELL immediately after God Spoke to Adam, just as Jesus advised in Mark 4:15. From that point on it was never an account of just Adam or just Eve. It was Adam and the tempter, and Eve and the tempter. The serpent had already taken up his place in their DUST bodies.

And from that point on there is this perpetual pirouette going on in the scriptures, with God uplifting one and condemning the other, looking at Peter and speaking to Satan for example. Or Satan entering Judas, spoken about hundreds of years before the event even happened.

Some claim God saw the future choices of them both (and all). I'd suggest it's all been orchestrated by God in our behalves, that we might learn the meaning of HIS MERCY in real life settings.

Interesting stuff, that protology

 

[David Lamb]

Eve was not even created when God gave Adam the instructions. She would have been instructed by Adam. The serpent was subtle, because he waited until Eve was alone. This is why Paul states that "the woman 'being deceived' was in the transgression.
But when comparing the sin of man he says "they did not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression", who actually received the commandment, and relayed the instructions incorrectly. Eve said, "God said you shall not eat, or even touch, lest you die."
Not what God said, so where did Eve get those instructions?
Kind of a Sunday school version for children of the Adam and Eve story, keeping them side by side, when God gave the instructions and Eve was still a rib, and side by side in the temptation which they were not. Hopefully we have cleared up some things concerning disobedience and unbelief. I have been disobedient to some extent in my walk with the Lord, but never have I fallen into unbelief!
In the OT, sin is disobedience to a command prohibition. In the NT, it is failure to act when the Lord, the Holy Spirit, presents us the opportunity to serve Him in goodness, and instead we refrain.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does not, to him it is sin.

Not the definition they give in Sunday school.

Thanks for challenging me with your post this morning David.
Gave me a quick "devotional" to share, while placing old Adam and Eve stories under a microscope.

Yes, It's great to think further about truths of Scripture. Thanks for your kind comment at the end of your post.

 

[Minister Monardo]

How do you know ETC is unfair? Are you God?

Matthew 26:23-24
"He replied, “The one who dipped his hand with me in the bowl—he will betray me. The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for him if he had not been born.”"

1 Peter 4:18
"And if a righteous person is saved with difficulty,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

How do you know ETC is unfair? Are you God?

Matthew 26:23-24
"He replied, “The one who dipped his hand with me in the bowl—he will betray me. The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for him if he had not been born.”"

1 Peter 4:18
"And if a righteous person is saved with difficulty,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?"

Good question. I don't think I have to be in order to voice an opinion. There was more than enough scriptural support to at least justify questioning the doctrine. Your scriptures posted don't do anything for that cause though. Let me try to follow...
"if a righteous person is saved with difficulty, surely the ungodly should burn eternally." Doesn't really follow logically, but does reveal a serious issue in someone who would draw that conclusion about God.
As to the betrayal, all who reject Christ are also betraying God? That was not even said of Judas, who was so designated to be the "son of perdition".
What were Steven"s last words? Burn them Father, burn them!
Jesus and Steven would be shocked and offended by the suggestion.

 

[All Becomes New]

Good question. I don't think I have to be in order to voice an opinion. There was more than enough scriptural support to at least justify questioning the doctrine. Your scriptures posted don't do anything for that cause though. Let me try to follow...
"if a righteous person is saved with difficulty, surely the ungodly should burn eternally." Doesn't really follow logically, but does reveal a serious issue in someone who would draw that conclusion about God.
As to the betrayal, all who reject Christ are also betraying God? That was not even said of Judas, who was so designated to be the "son of perdition".
What were Steven"s last words? Burn them Father, burn them!
Jesus and Steven would be shocked and offended by the suggestion.

It was clearly speaking of Judas. I think we are done here. You care far too much about your own pet theories of how Jesus would never hurt a fly for this to be productive.

 

[Minister Monardo]

Yes, It's great to think further about truths of Scripture. Thanks for your kind comment at the end of your post.

I respect your manner, even if I offer an "alternate view", I appreciate your level-headed contributions. I think you just pulled a quick trigger on that one. That in itself is something to consider, as I have discussed this with the Holy Spirit. There is a dangerous tendency afoot, and we all could be caught up in it at some point. Not accusing you of anything, just asking to consider the concern.
I noticed right away when I first started coming to online forums in 2020, that I would spend three to four hours on a devotional, post it, and in less time it would take to read the extensive study I had written, someone was already firing off a comment. It was evident that many simply responded to a title, without any respect to the OP. But then the Holy Spirit showed me something much more ungodly.
There is a common misconception in many that if you are a Spirit-filled believer, and you simply state the first thing that pops in your mind, that it will be inspired (God breathed)! My own sister shared with me that is what she thought, and knew others who shared the notion.
The Word of God states, "know my Voice". Not listen to your "first thought".
Have you any experiences with this?, or if unappealing, no response is necessary.
Remaining in the love of Christ,
James the Insignificant.

 

[Minister Monardo]

It was clearly speaking of Judas. I think we are done here. You care far too much about your own pet theories of how Jesus would never hurt a fly for this to be productive.

What exactly do you think is my pet theory? What does Judas have to do with all of humanity?
If you are done, that is fine with me. But don't rush off just because I questioned your position.
You are the one accusing me of thinking I am God. Are you sure that is a justifiable position to take against someone who simply disagreed with you, and questioned the logic of a statement that you don't seem willing to even stand by?
So if we are being honest, your comment actually makes sense and I can now agree to some extent.
My opinion does sound a lot more like God's Name.
You seem willing to hand over as many souls to Satan as possible.
"Burn them Father, for they should have known better."

Part of our ministry is to assist others in overcoming the snares of the devil.
2 Timothy 2:
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

That would be a better use of time then trying to convince other Christians of this position and opinion about the nature of God's Vengeance. While many are busy arguing a doctrine, others are captive to Satan and in need of a different voice and tone then "repent, or burn". I do not stand corrected.

 

[All Becomes New]

What exactly do you think is my pet theory?

You believe in Annihilationism (or some strange form of universalism) for almost all of humanity except for the Anti-Christ and False Prophet. No mention of Judas, whom the Lord says it would be better if he never existed, which implies torment. No mention of the Pharisees, who committed the "greater sin." No mention of Caesar, who crucified our Lord. All because you don't like the idea that God must punish sin, and He even says, "Vengeance is mine. I will repay." Does that always happen in this life? I think you are old enough to know the answer to that question, no.

What does Judas have to do with all of humanity?

Nothing, except it blows your theory that only three will be thrown into the lake of fire (prepared for the devil AND HIS ANGELS).

Are you sure that is a justifiable position to take against someone who simply disagreed with you, and questioned the logic of a statement that you don't seem willing to even stand by?

I don't care if you disagree with me. I will not lose sleep over that. I have a problem with your (seemingly) soft God. No idea what you are referring to me not standing by whatever.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I use Heb. 9:27..."And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
Life, and judgement.
Not, life, a second chance, and judgement.
Man has an entire life span to turn from sin and unto God.
What makes one think that after death, they would behave any differently than how thy lived ?

Yes I agree 100% that after the mortal body dies then the judgement but why do you think that the judgement is equal to the sentence? Just like our court system you have a judgement then you get a sentence. The judgement is permanent but the sentence has a beginning and an end.
Its like this if you murder someone you are judged as a murderer, that is forever you can't erase it, but the sentence maybe 40 years in jail, that has a beginning and and end but that person will forever have the stain of murderer on them.
Gods ways are similar once your mortal body dies you are judged, either you followed Jesus or you did not, that is the judgement. The sentence is what comes next, if one has followed Jesus then you go straight to the Father " to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord"
The sentence is according to what you have done in life, some will need more correction some less, but it does not go on forever that's a pagan idea not Gods.
What makes you any different after your death? Did not scripture tell us when we put our trust in Jesus we cross over from death to life? Why do you think that would be different for those who need their mortal temporary body removed so that they me see Jesus more clearly without the sin riddled flesh, we are not our bodies we are spiritual beings in a temporary body.
Let me show you one reason that scripture has shown of people accepting Jesus after their mortal body is dead.
John 14:6 " I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me" So you must believe that all those who came before Jesus had to accept Jesus after their mortal body was dead, that's why Jesus went to Sheol to preach to the dead. Scripture says he led the captives free.
If you don't think that all those who came before Jesus had to accept him after death then your only other options are there are multiple paths to the Father if so why did Jesus have to die? or only those who lived after Jesus can get to the Father.
This is why I believe that you can repent after the mortal body dies, also if you couldn't scripture would be false because scripture says " Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord" The Greek word for confess in this verse is Exomologeo which means - to acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations, its not a forced false confession of some one conquered.

 

[Minister Monardo]

I have a problem with your (seemingly) soft God.

Wow, you are right. Jesus was a hard man.
Can we put that in context?
John 17:6 I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world.
They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Which of the attributes of God's Name, if you know them, would lead me to believe that where "merciful" leaves off, eternal torment comes in? A big leap, but it must be in the Name, right? As for Vengeance, God's Law teaches equity.
Accept my Son and the free gift of salvation, or burn forever. Sounds like gun to the head evangelism.
I am going to stick to "God so loved the World".
We have a mission to the lost. How successful has teaching them ECT worked in your wisdom?
"He who saves souls is wise"
I am interested in the effectiveness of bringing conviction and repentance.
Surely you are old enough to have a testimony about this.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Destruction has no end.
This is why when death is hurled into the lake of fire, it is forever destroyed... as the other things hurled there... including Satan.


Yes. Eternity in the second death. That's where everything in opposition to God will be. Destroyed forever.
To us, that may be, like if something vanished. To God, destruction is before him, as something exiting. So it is everlasting.
This is why what goes into everlasting destruction is likened to being tormented, because everything that is destroyed eternally, is before God, forever.

Until people accept that the lake of fire isn't a literal lake of fire, as the angel plainly explained, they will continue to see people alive forever... which isn't taught in the Bible.
It won't happen though. Circular reasoning will keep people in the cycle of eternal life in torments.

That would be true, but eternal torment is not in the Greek scriptures, that's a mistranslation of the Greek into Latin. Augustine who gave us this bad idea did not read Greek but used a bad Latin translation and made sure that all the Greek speakers that were trying to correct him were silenced either with banishment or death. This is what morphed into the Catholic Church, which morphed into the Protestant reformation that also accepted the lie of eternal torment. The Greeks new that the word translated eternal, aionios or aion, should be translated of the age or pertaining to that age. God works in ages or aions and each one has its own order or rules that govern them, so when we read in most English scriptures and we read eternal punishment, to be true to the Greek original, it should be punishment of the age, it had a beginning and and end.
When referring to aionios life in Jesus because that life is in Jesus and we know Jesus is eternal, the life we have in Jesus is eternal also but it extends to all the ages as Jesus does.

 

[All Becomes New]

We have a mission to the lost. How successful has teaching them ECT worked in your wisdom?

Why does that matter how "successful" we are? If we are faithful to the Bible, that is all that matters. Salvation is not in our hands.

I am interested in the effectiveness of bringing conviction and repentance.

Why? If they die in their sins, they just disappear.