Limited atonement !

[Brightfame52]

Romans 5:10 does not mention his Church. How do you know they were part of the Church before having been reconciled?

Romans 5:10 does not mention his Church. How do you know they were part of the Church before having been reconciled?

So it doesnt have to literally say Church for it to be the Church

 

[Rescued One]

Nope, that’s exactly why I reject it. To accept such a doctrine would be to deny the truth. AnD
incidentally, no one for 1500 years believed that Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t sufficient to save alL

You are not omniscient, so stop pretending.
Second Peter 2:20 is often cited as proof text by those who believe salvation can be lost. However, a comprehensive reading of the whole chapter and a comparison with the rest of Scripture suggest otherwise. The focus here is primarily on the negative impact false teachers have on the body of Christ. Even genuine Christians can stumble into sin, especially when they are recent converts (Galatians 6:1–2). Additionally, Jesus’ parable on the four soils illustrates the difference between mere intellectual assent and wholehearted commitment. Merely rejoicing at the message is insufficient if no fruit is ever produced (Matthew 13:1–23).
gotquestions.org

Hebrews 6
One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase once enlightened (Hebrews 6:4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of Scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4–6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but who have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase tasted the heavenly gift (Hebrews 6:4) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3–23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

John 15:5-6
Many take the verses about the fruitless branches being taken away and burned as a proof-text that salvation can be lost. The teaching is that a person who was at one time in Christ might later cease to “abide in Christ” and become good for nothing; that person is then cut off and burned up. Now, if the parable of the vine and the branches were the only passage that addressed the issue of eternal security, then we might have good reason to fear that salvation could be lost. However, this is not the only passage in Scripture that addresses security and assurance, nor is it the only passage in John where these issues are addressed.
There are several passages in John where the security of the believer is clearly assured (John 3:16–17; 6:35–40; 10:27–29).

 

[fhansen]

You are not omniscient, so stop pretending.
Second Peter 2:20 is often cited as proof text by those who believe salvation can be lost. However, a comprehensive reading of the whole chapter and a comparison with the rest of Scripture suggest otherwise. The focus here is primarily on the negative impact false teachers have on the body of Christ. Even genuine Christians can stumble into sin, especially when they are recent converts (Galatians 6:1–2). Additionally, Jesus’ parable on the four soils illustrates the difference between mere intellectual assent and wholehearted commitment. Merely rejoicing at the message is insufficient if no fruit is ever produced (Matthew 13:1–23).
gotquestions.org

Well, I'll say this, 'You are not omniscient, so stop pretending', whatever that was about. Anyway, you're certainly a speculator, I'll say that as well, engaging in some best-guess theologizing here in attempts to ignore or work around what Scripture says, and what has been pretty much universally believed.

Hebrews 6
One interpretation holds that this passage is written not about Christians but about unbelievers who are convinced of the basic truths of the gospel but who have not placed their faith in Jesus Christ as Savior. They are intellectually persuaded but spiritually uncommitted.

According to this interpretation, the phrase once enlightened (Hebrews 6:4) refers to some level of instruction in biblical truth. However, understanding the words of Scripture is not the same as being regenerated by the Holy Spirit. For example, John 1:9 describes Jesus, the “true Light,” giving light “to every man”; but this cannot mean the light of salvation, because not every man is saved. Through God’s sovereign power, every man has enough light to be held responsible. This light either leads to the complete acceptance of Jesus Christ or produces condemnation in those who reject such light. The people described in Hebrews 6:4–6 are of the latter group—unbelievers who have been exposed to God’s redemptive truth and perhaps have made a profession of faith, but who have not exercised genuine saving faith.

This interpretation also sees the phrase tasted the heavenly gift (Hebrews 6:4) as referring to a momentary experience, akin to Jesus’ “tasting” death (Hebrews 2:9). This brief experience with the heavenly gift is not seen as equivalent to salvation; rather, it is likened to the second and third soils in Jesus’ parable (Matthew 13:3–23), which describes people who receive the truth of the gospel but are not truly saved.

John 15:5-6
Many take the verses about the fruitless branches being taken away and burned as a proof-text that salvation can be lost. The teaching is that a person who was at one time in Christ might later cease to “abide in Christ” and become good for nothing; that person is then cut off and burned up. Now, if the parable of the vine and the branches were the only passage that addressed the issue of eternal security, then we might have good reason to fear that salvation could be lost. However, this is not the only passage in Scripture that addresses security and assurance, nor is it the only passage in John where these issues are addressed.
There are several passages in John where the security of the believer is clearly assured (John 3:16–17; 6:35–40; 10:27–29).

This is just make-up-as-we-go stuff. "I have no good answer so I'll have to manufacture one anyway." Even the soils were people who heard and believed but were half-hearted for one reason or another. There is no person who's permanently saved/reborn, who's so exclusively different that they couldn't possibly turn back away again.

 

[Brightfame52]

Did Jesus Christ die for them which its written Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.11

 

[zoidar]

@zoidar



Thats the reason why He wanted to save them, they belonged to His Body Eph 5:23

23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

And they are converted to believers so as to live to Him for His Glory and Honor 2 Cor 5:14-15

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God ...
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household (His Church)
— Ephesians 2:8,19

but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
— 1 Timothy 3:15

 

[Brightfame52]

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God ...
So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household (His Church)
— Ephesians 2:8,19

but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
— 1 Timothy 3:15

Okay I have no problem with them verses, now do you want to expound upon them since you brought them up ? Or you wanna dump them on me

 

[zoidar]

Okay I have no problem with them verses, now do you want to expound upon them since you brought them up ? Or you wanna dump them on me

It says through faith we are no longer strangers but part of the Church. What's there to expound on? Then obviously we were not part of the Church before faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and ... you are no longer strangers, but you are of God’s household

 

[fhansen]

Did Jesus Christ die for them which its written Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.11

He died for all, and those who care, who are moved by that love and turn to Him, and remain turned to Him, end up in the Book of Life. He knows who will do that and who will not. From the vantage point of eternity the book is already written IOW.

 

[Brightfame52]

It says through faith we are no longer strangers but part of the Church. What's there to expound on? Then obviously we were not part of the Church before faith.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and ... you are no longer strangers, but you are of God’s household

If its nothing to expound what are you quoting them to me for ? I have no problem with them

 

[Brightfame52]

He died for all, and those who care, who are moved by that love and turn to Him, and remain turned to Him, end up in the Book of Life. He knows who will do that and who will not. From the vantage point of eternity the book is already written IOW.

I dont believe He died for them not written in the Lambs Book from the foundation.

 

[Rescued One]

Well, I'll say this, 'You are not omniscient, so stop pretending' whatever that was about. Anyway, you're certainly a speculator, I'll say that as well, engaging in some best-guess theologizing here in attempts to ignore or work around what Scripture says, and what has been pretty much universally believed.


This is just make-up-as-we-go stuff. "I have no good answer so I'll have to manufacture one anyway." Even the soils were people who heard and believed but were half-hearted for one reason or another. There is no person who's permanently saved/reborn, who's so exclusively different that they couldn't possibly turn back away again.

I'm not so exclusively different. All have sinned and need the new birth. God effeccted the new birth, not I. John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

He doesn't save us to toss us away. He keeps us.

Phillippians 1
3I thank my God every time I remember you. 4In every prayer for all of you, I always pray with joy, 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.


John 10
1“I tell you the truth, anyone who sneaks over the wall of a sheepfold, rather than going through the gate, must surely be a thief and a robber! 2But the one who enters through the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep recognize his voice and come to him. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4After he has gathered his own flock, he walks ahead of them, and they follow him because they know his voice. 5They won’t follow a stranger; they will run from him because they don’t know his voice.”

 

[Brightfame52]

Obtained Eternal Redemption for us !

Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

We can perceive from this scripture that Christ could not have shed His Redeeming Blood for all mankind, since those He did shed His Own Blood For [His Church Acts 20:28] He for them obtained Eternal Redemption.

This Eternal Redemption isnt conditioned upon mans freewill or man having to make a decision, its totally based upon Christs Own Blood. This is something Christ had success in, what He set out to do. The word obtained in our text is the word heyriskō and it means:

I find, learn, discover, especially after searching.

And its in the middle voice, meaning its obtained for Himself and His Body whom Hes One with Heb 2:11

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

And this what He obtained redemption lytrōsis

1. a ransoming, redemption
2. deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

And we know all men without exception have not been delivered from the penalty of sin ! So Christ could not have shed His Own Blood for them !

 

[fhansen]

I'm not so exclusively different. All have sinned and need the new birth. God effeccted the new birth, not I. John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

He doesn't save us to toss us away. He keeps us.

God tosses no one away. Beginning in Eden, man tossed himself away. Salvation is about man coming back out of that unjust and disordered and foolish state of alienation, and then working out this new status, back together with He who now resides and works within us as we make our calling and election sure. It's about real change in us, as a result of the faith that establishes connection to the Vine. If we're walking the walk, then our talk is proving and demonstrating itself to be true with good fruit. That's what James chap 2, as well as John in his 1st letter, were saying. That fruit means we're remaining in Him-and not tossing ourselves back away, burying our talents or returning to the flesh.

 

[Rescued One]

JOHN 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Sinners have never given themselves faith or eternal life. That is why God's word(not man's word) says:
EPHESIANS 2
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

4But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages He might display the surpassing riches of His grace, demonstrated by His kindness to us in Christ Jesus.

8For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life.a

For it is by grace we are saved through FAITH and this FAITH is not from ourselves.

The gift of God is eternal life. IOW, eternal life and faith are gifts.

ROMANS 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We neither earn a gift, nor do we earn faith or eternal life.

 

[fhansen]

JOHN 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Whoever says they believe in Him while producing no good fruit is just a talker, maybe a believer at best, no different from demons who beleive.

 

[fhansen]

Sinners have never given themselves faith or eternal life. That is why God's word(not man's word) says:

Yes, it's all by grace, man can't find God, man cannot save himself. But he can reject the gift at the begnning or at any point later on down the road.

The gift of God is eternal life. IOW, eternal life and faith are gifts.

ROMANS 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We neither earn a gift, nor do we earn faith or eternal life.

The gift must be responded to: accepted, acted upon, "invested", and kept-and even grown. We mock God and His gift otherwise. How is the gift of eternal life realized? Read Romans 5-8 again, objectively, carefully for yourself.

 

[Rescued One]

Whoever says they believe in Him while producing no good fruit is just a talker, maybe a believer at best, no different from demons who beleive.

Unregenrated people have no problem with lying.

 

[Rescued One]

Yes, it's all by grace, man can't find God, man cannot save himself. But he can reject the gift at the begnning or at any point later on down the road.

The gift must be responded to: accepted, acted upon, "invested", and kept-and even grown. We mock God and His gift otherwise. How is the gift of eternal life realized? Read Romans 5-8 again, objectively, carefully for yourself.

The "saved" have eternal life, are kept by God, are being conformed to the image of Christ. IOW, they have been born again with a new nature.

 

[fhansen]

Unregenrated people have no problem with lying.

Reborn people aren't immune from it either- even though they should be more immune, at least. People have a tendency to fool themselves, for that matter.

Anyway, God places demands upon believers, and that's not a bad thing at all. The new covenant did not take that away.

 

[fhansen]

The "saved" have eternal life, are kept by God, are being conformed to the image of Christ. IOW, they have been born again with a new nature.

They are not made into automatons-who cannot walk back away from Him. Again, Scripture has both carrots and sticks: encouragements, exhortations, along with warnings and admonishments, sometimes stern. And He, alone, knows who will persevere.