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What is Death?

jacks

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The question of death , is the question of “what is life” and the hard problem of “what is consciousness.” The questions are inseparable, they can only be answered together.
Would it follow then that a plant has "consciousness", since it certainly is alive and can die.

(Note: This is a serious question, I'm not trying to argue a specific point of view.)
 
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SelfSim

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The sensations is one aspect of what we can be conscious of. And you have described the science behind those sensations. But it seems to me that the described model for sensation is something different than is the consciousness of those sensations.
I wonder if your views on this come from some kind of assumption that consciousness is a fundamental in the universe(?)

Given that notion is without any evidence, (and given that its also one that's pretty difficult to counter), we are still able to break through the concept that it might be fundamental, by taking the speculative position that consciousness might just be evidence of something else that's simply missing(?) That position is a more advantageous one for science because it allows some wiggle space to derive or explain the features of consciousness or, to test features it might impart on some objects and not others. (We're always after measurable consequences for the models we choose within scientific thinking, because we're always aiming to substantiate new theories that extend our focus on reality within the Physical Sciences worldview).
It's curious to me that you have been using the word "model". That comes from a science minded individual. :)
The way I look at is that consciousness is just a part of being a Human Being and I have no idea how to reduce Human consciousness into a model.
.. and I say that modelling is observably just what our minds do .. there's apparently no escaping that reality. That's just a part of how our minds demonstrably work.
That sounds pretty spiritual to me.
Cool. I'm trying to relate to where you might be coming from on this one.
That doesn't mean I like it .. or accept it though. ;)
I'm just not sure this notion of spirituality will get me to a better understanding of any potentially deeper phenomena(?)
That sounds like out of body experiences that effect the core of ones being that your pointing towards. To me that's totally a spiritually aware experience.
Hmm .. ok .. however there are other ways to explain all of what I wrote there, as being entirely a state of mind (which is just another mind-model).
There's no need to invoke out-of-body spirituality, (whatever that is).
However, at least I'm getting closer to understanding this 'spiritual' thing(?)
 
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dlamberth

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I wonder if your views on this come from some kind of assumption that consciousness is a fundamental in the universe(?)
I'd agree that consciousness is part of the fundamentals of the universe. But not the whole picture. Though I do believe that it's consciousness that's evolving and that's into all sorts of variations and forms. For many people, and I admit that I'm one, there is a creating life force that runs through and within every single aspect of the cosmos. It's more than a belief for me as it comes from being consciously aware of it. You won't find that awareness in science, though sometimes I think it might be creeping towards that direction. I know your problem with that idea, but I thought I'd share that aspect about myself as it's one of the fundamentals of the universe, as I experience it. If you notice, I keep coming back to the word "experience". But it's experience as through consciousness.
Given that notion is without any evidence, (and given that its also one that's pretty difficult to counter), we are still able to break through the concept that it might be fundamental, by taking the speculative position that consciousness might just be evidence of something else that's simply missing(?) That position is a more advantageous one for science because it allows some wiggle space to derive or explain the features of consciousness or, to test features it might impart on some objects and not others. (We're always after measurable consequences for the models we choose within scientific thinking, because we're always aiming to substantiate new theories that extend our focus on reality within the Physical Sciences worldview).

.. and I say that modelling is observably just what our minds do .. there's apparently no escaping that reality. That's just a part of how our minds demonstrably work.
So now I'm wondering how one would model the mind of the Mystic.

I just asked google that question and basically it said:
"No, the mind of the mystic has not been precisely modeled in the way a physical system like a cell might be modeled. While there's been a lot of work on modeling different aspects of the human brain and consciousness, understanding and replicating the experiences of mystics, which often involve subjective and potentially extrasensory realities, remains a challenge."

And then it want on to lay out a bunch of reasons why it's difficult to model the mystic mind.
Cool. I'm trying to relate to where you might be coming from on this one.
That doesn't mean I like it .. or accept it though. ;)
I'm just not sure this notion of spirituality will get me to a better understanding of any potentially deeper phenomena(?)
Your a person where being spiritually aware isn't your thing. No big deal. We each have different capabilities.

One caution to think about, if it's about phenomena, I'd call that kind of calling "pseudo-spirituality".
However, at least I'm getting closer to understanding this 'spiritual' thing(?)
I'll tell you one belief that I will always say is truth. And that's that every Human Being has a spiritual aspect about themselves. I say that because I see it in everyone I come across. They may not realize it, but we, being Human Beings can not escape that aspect of ourselves.
 
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Mountainmike

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There are deep connections between consciousness and matter, (or 'the material').
'Spiritual' is concept. The only currently known way to realise 'spiritual', is by way of beliefs.
If you actually READ the science by medical researchers you might become informed.
but like electronics you are stuck on basic kits.

There are longitudinal ways to study whether out of body consciousness exists, the “ spiritual “ for want of a better word which give statistically significant answers. But you will never know, till you read them.
We are in any event limited to the scope of our senses, we cannot say what exists beyond them.

The medical definition of death is no longer simple or indeed clear.
consciousness is not explicable as a process of the brain, for many reasons,
 
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Jermayn

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There are many discussions on origin of life here.
Which begs the question what is life?

One parallel aspect of this should get more attention, is so What then is death?

At one time medical definitions were easier , because the ability to resussitate after a heart stopping was very limited.

Now as body function can be restored by shock, and machines can take over some functions , now medicine admits the answer is far from clear, and definitions also focus on brain function, but even that can seemingly cease and restart.

I am not going to reproduce any medical definitions or the difficulties in them here , I will let medics do that.

But I do suggest all read Dr Sam parnias “lucid dying “ as a summary of where we are at Medically.

The conclusion is consciousness is life, “ the part of you that says I am”
And that is not just a function of brain, and in as far as anyone can tell lives on after bodily death.
sonetimes it can come back to otherwise lifeless bodies. Sometimes not. The machine is turned off.

Consviousness beyond life - van lommel - explores Medical arguments and presents scientifuc longitudinal studies that so called out of body experiences are not hallucination, drug, anoxia or faith influenced Actual stats based on entire cardiac arrest populations, dont support any of the lazy assumptions.

I just urge all to study the subject . It is important because if life is consciousness “ soul” for what if a better word, and not just chemistry , all bets are off on the usual narrative on origin of life.
I've always been taught that the word "death" and "separation" are interchangeable.
 
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Larniavc

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I think medicine is going backwards instead of forward in this regard with all the countries 'helping' people die like MAID.
This is clearly untrue. We are able to successfully treat medical issues today that were impossible in years past.

For example AIDS used to be a death sentence. Not so today.
 
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Larniavc

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If you study the scientifuc literature you might find out why consciousness is not considered a process of the brain.
No it isn’t don’t be silly. If you turn off the brain you turn off consciousness.
 
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Larniavc

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Would it follow then that a plant has "consciousness", since it certainly is alive and can die.

(Note: This is a serious question, I'm not trying to argue a specific point of view.)
Plants don’t have neurones, synapses etc but they do use an analogous but very different system of electrochemical system in their bodies.

But it’s not like an animal’s central nervous system that generates consciousness.
 
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armchairscholar

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There are many discussions on origin of life here.


Which begs the question what is life?

One parallel aspect of this should get more attention, is so What then is death?
At one time medical definitions were easier, because the ability to resussitate after a heart stopping was very limited.
Now as body function can be restored by shock, and machines can take over some functions, now medicine admits the answer is far from clear, and definitions also focus on brain function, but even that can seemingly cease and restart.
I am not going to reproduce any medical definitions or the difficulties in them here, I will let medics do that.
But I do suggest all read Dr Sam parnias "lucid dying" as a summary of where we are at Medically.
The conclusion is consciousness is life, "the part of you that says I am"
And that is not just a function of brain, and in as far as anyone can tell lives on after bodily death.
sonetimes it can come back to otherwise lifeless bodies. Sometimes not. The machine is turned off.
Consciousness beyond life - van lommel - explores Medical arguments and presents scientifuc longitudinal studies that so called out of body experiences are not hallucination, drug, anoxia or faith influenced Actual stats based on entire cardiac arrest populations, dont support any of the lazy assumptions.
I just urge all to study the subject. It is important because if life is consciousness "soul" for what if a better word, and not just chemistry, all bets are off on the usual narrative on origin of life. The biblical perspective on this has always recognized the spiritual dimension of our existence, which modern science is only beginning to explore. The relationship between body and soul is more complex than materialists have assumed.


Brother Mike, you've touched on something truly profound here! What's fascinating is how modern medicine has actually caught up to what Scripture has always suggested - that our "life" isn't simply biological functions. The soul or consciousness that makes you "you" may exist beyond the physical machine we call a body.

Dr. Parnias's work on "lucid dying" aligns beautifully with the Christian understanding that we are more than our physical forms. When Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise," He was affirming this continuity of consciousness beyond death.

The research on near-death experiences across different cultures and beliefs shows remarkable consistency - awareness outside the body, meeting deceased loved ones, feelings of peace. These accounts match aspects of what Paul described as "being absent from the body but present with the Lord."

Throughout history, Christians have understood death not as an end but as a transition. The early church fathers wrote extensively about this. What's exciting is seeing modern science begin to provide evidence that supports what faith has maintained all along.

I believe this topic is crucial because it challenges the materialist view that we're just complex chemical reactions. If consciousness continues beyond physical death, it suggests our creation and purpose extend beyond the merely physical realm.

God bless you for bringing this up! It's exactly these kinds of discussions that help us grow in both faith and understanding.
 
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NBB

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This is clearly untrue. We are able to successfully treat medical issues today that were impossible in years past.

For example AIDS used to be a death sentence. Not so today.

i was talking of the topic, ethical stuff related to end of life, i know medicine can cure things now better than before.
 
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Mountainmike

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No it isn’t don’t be silly. If you turn off the brain you turn off consciousness.
Evidence disagrees.
You mean ability to interact, not consciousness.

As for why consciousness is not just a chemical process there are many arguments, from many research medics including Nobel laureates . Are they in your view all “ silly” ?

Can you please study it first , I gave places to start, THEN comment?
Its the scientific way.
 
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Larniavc

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Evidence disagrees.
You mean ability to interact, not consciousness.

As for why consciousness is not just a chemical process there are many arguments, from many research medics including Nobel laureates . Are they in your view all “ silly” ?

Can you please study it first , I gave places to start, THEN comment?
Its the scientific way.
It is silly. It has NEVER been evidenced.
 
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SelfSim

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Evidence disagrees.
You mean ability to interact, not consciousness.

As for why consciousness is not just a chemical process there are many arguments, from many research medics including Nobel laureates . Are they in your view all “ silly” ?

Can you please study it first , I gave places to start, THEN comment?
Its the scientific way.
No .. the scientific way is to look at already well-researched explanantions that actually produce other testable predictions.

See Susan Blackmore, a critic of Parnia's pseudoscientific musings:
In 1973, Susan Blackmore graduated from St Hilda's College, Oxford, with a BA (Hons) degree in psychology and physiology. She received an MSc in environmental psychology in 1974 from the University of Surrey. In 1980, she earned a PhD in parapsychology from the same university; her doctoral thesis was titled "Extrasensory Perception as a Cognitive Process.
What makes her interesting is that she dived into all the gobbledygook in her early career and then experienced some type of (so-called) 'out of body experience' and then emerged as a skeptic of it all.
Here's a YouTube interview with her:


It gets particularly relevant around the 17:00 -19:25 minute mark, with her arguing the case from her own personal experience and from a more rational mainstream, scientifically supportable viewpoint.
 
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dlamberth

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No .. the scientific way is to look at already well-researched explanantions that actually produce other testable predictions.

See Susan Blackmore, a critic of Parnia's pseudoscientific musings:

What makes her interesting is that she dived into all the gobbledygook in her early career and then experienced some type of (so-called) 'out of body experience' and then emerged as a skeptic of it all.
Here's a YouTube interview with her:


It gets particularly relevant around the 17:00 -19:25 minute mark, with her arguing the case from her own personal experience and from a more rational mainstream, scientifically supportable viewpoint.
I enjoyed the video.
 
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Mountainmike

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It is silly. It has NEVER been evidenced.
So all the peer reviewed researchers who number hundreds are” silly”
The mass of actual evidence realised as hundreds of papers and books is “ silly’

Only you are not “silly“ which can only mean that you think your own world view trumps all science.

Streuth.

Please - go and post on the laniavc opinions forum.

This forum is for SCIENCE which I ask others to STUDY, THEN AND ONLY THEN comment.
 
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Laodicean60

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I wonder if your views on this come from some kind of assumption that consciousness is a fundamental in the universe(?)
We can't prove consciousness in biology, now physics paints a different picture.
 
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Larniavc

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So all the peer reviewed researchers who number hundreds are” silly”
The mass of actual evidence realised as hundreds of papers and books is “ silly
Never happened. There is none of that which you claim exists.
 
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Mountainmike

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All . You should recognise parnia is no kind of religious believer

He is a renowned expert on the processes of death, keeping people alive , and the nature and science of consciousness.

He is convinced , as are many neurologists and neurosurgeons , cardiologists and ed specialists that consciousness is not a process of the brain, but instead it interacts with the brain.

Study the science of death , to focus on life and consciousness , it’s all I ask.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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All . You should recognise parnia is no kind of religious believer

He is a renowned expert on the processes of death, keeping people alive , and the nature and science of consciousness.

He is convinced , as are many neurologists and neurosurgeons , cardiologists and ed specialists that consciousness is not a process of the brain, but instead it interacts with the brain.

Study the science of death , to focus on life and consciousness , it’s all I ask.

So if the consciousness is not of the brain or even from the brain, where is it from?
 
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