Do you believe that Trump has an ACTUAL plan?

[linux.poet]

Bloomberg is very much in favor of sensible gun regulation, is a strong supporter of progressive causes, and wrote a book on the climate crisis with the president of the Sierra Club.

All indications of good values, morals, and character.

What is inherently moral about killing unborn children (a progressive cause), taking guns away from hunters who want to feed and protect said children (sensible gun regulation), and writing books with the specific interest of causing human beings to suffer in the name of preserving trees and animals?

God sets the moral standards for humanity in the Bible. Using any American political party or ideology as the standard of morality is idolatry.

The Catholic Church places racism right next to abortion as an "intrinsic evil."

It's not just the Catholic church, it's Galatians 3:28:

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is [a]neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

And:

12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

Not to mention the Great Commission to proclaim the Gospel to the ends of the earth, which means that all people are to be proclaimed the Gospel equally, and people from "every tribe, tongue, people, and nation" (Revelation 5:9) are a part of God's church.

Because people who play the stock market are freaking out too much.

People who lack intelligence and who make stupid choices are not victims. Playing the stock market involves the acceptance of risk and being able to predict factors that could affect the market. Obviously a tariff policy will crash the market in the short term, so if you were paying attention to the political conditions, you would sell your stock before said policies hit the fan. If you couldn't get out of the market, you shift your portfolio into companies with domestic production that are less likely to be affected by tariffs. This is called intelligence.

In my life experience, people try to do things using the minimum of effort and learning required, and then blame others (Trump, in this case) when they get bad results. If you want to do something (play the stock market), then you need to get smart and research things like geopolitical economics and business fundamentals instead of going off intuition and sticking your head in the sand.

It can increase domestic production, which increases employment.

That change isn't going to happen in 4 years, though. Even if I'm a company looking to increase domestic production, building a factory takes longer than 4 years to construct, and is massively expensive. Building factories is also capital intensive, and we just crashed the stock market, where capital is generated.

If I were a CEO, odds are that I would just weather the storm and pass the tariff costs along to the customer and blame Trump for the higher prices, and just wait for another Democrat president to come into office who will repeal the tariffs. That is what happened last time, and it's likely to happen again this time.

If I'm a small business looking to start production, it might affect my decision making a bit though. Ultimately these tariffs amount to a tax on them in some cases, but the appeal of domestic production is that it makes it easier for a small business owner to get started. Let's say I want to start a publishing business, and I have a choice between outsourcing my printing to China or taking it to a local print shop in the nearest city. The Chinese print shop is much cheaper, but printing isn't like ordering a pizza. A dialogue between the publishing company and the printer has to be maintained as to any changes that might need to be made to my files in order for my text to fit on their pages. Navigating through that process when both of us speak English is hard enough and I can drive down to the print shop to talk to them. Imagine trying to deal with that back and forth on a completely remote basis with cultural and language barriers involved. Of course, for a big company, no skin off its back - just hire a translator and keep plugging away. But for the rest of us mortals, by the time I've learned the extra level of expertise required to deal with the Chinese, I've burned up so many wage hours that it's more cost-effective to go down to the local print shop and pay the higher price. If a tariff makes the price between the two print shops the same, obviously I'm going with the domestic one, and I'm going to be very happy that I did. Likewise, my small business will have better odds of competing with the billionaires because I can, in fact, go with the domestic production and not be undercut on price or margin and be run out of business.

To some extent, factories are like print shops. A dialogue has to happen when a prototype meets the realities of machine mass production. Compromises and changes have to be made, and the owners have to be held accountable. The idea is wealth redistribution from the illusion economy of the Internet (which is where the billionaires got theirs) and the real economy of feeding and clothing and sheltering people, which is what small businesses typically do.

 

[BeyondET]

prices go up with little benefit to the consumer, and very few jobs, and will take 4 years, so are we going to wait for trump to putting tariffs on them?

It's a hundred times better than allowing the same ol stuff to happen thats been going on for 40 years. Prices don't remain the same forever, they constantly fluctuate.

 

[hedrick]

If I were a CEO, odds are that I would just weather the storm and pass the tariff costs along to the customer and blame Trump for the higher prices, and just wait for another Democrat president to come into office who will repeal the tariffs. That is what happened last time, and it's likely to happen again this time.

Indeed. I would argue that it's dangerous for too much of things like defense to depend upon the Chinese. I'd like to see things produced either here or with allies. But to make that happen, we'd need policies that both parties agree on, so that people would be willing to make long-term investments. I don't think that kind of agreement is impossible. Emergency tarriffs, which changne every day and will go away when the emergency is called off, won't do the job.

 

[BeyondET]

That change isn't going to happen in 4 years, though. Even if I'm a company looking to increase domestic production, building a factory takes longer than 4 years to construct, and is massively expensive. Building factories is also capital intensive, and we just crashed the stock market, where capital is generated.

If I were a CEO, odds are that I would just weather the storm and pass the tariff costs along to the customer and blame Trump for the higher prices, and just wait for another Democrat president to come into office who will repeal the tariffs. That is what happened last time, and it's likely to happen again this time.

If I'm a small business looking to start production, it might affect my decision making a bit though. Ultimately these tariffs amount to a tax on them in some cases, but the appeal of domestic production is that it makes it easier for a small business owner to get started. Let's say I want to start a publishing business, and I have a choice between outsourcing my printing to China or taking it to a local print shop in the nearest city. The Chinese print shop is much cheaper, but printing isn't like ordering a pizza. A dialogue between the publishing company and the printer has to be maintained as to any changes that might need to be made to my files in order for my text to fit on their pages. Navigating through that process when both of us speak English is hard enough and I can drive down to the print shop to talk to them. Imagine trying to deal with that back and forth on a completely remote basis with cultural and language barriers involved. Of course, for a big company, no skin off its back - just hire a translator and keep plugging away. But for the rest of us mortals, by the time I've learned the extra level of expertise required to deal with the Chinese, I've burned up so many wage hours that it's more cost-effective to go down to the local print shop and pay the higher price. If a tariff makes the price between the two print shops the same, obviously I'm going with the domestic one, and I'm going to be very happy that I did. Likewise, my small business will have better odds of competing with the billionaires because I can, in fact, go with the domestic production and not undercut on price or margin and run out of business.

To some extent, factories are like print shops. A dialogue has to happen when a prototype meets the realities of machine mass production. Compromises and changes have to be made, and the owners have to be held accountable. The idea is wealth redistribution from the illusion economy of the Internet (which is where the billionaires got theirs) and the real economy of feeding and clothing and sheltering people, which is what small businesses typically do.

It does take awhile to rebuild the manufacturing base, but that shouldn't deter the goal of bringing back manufacturing in the U.S. that has been lost over the decades.

 

[timothyu]

Is it better to send the harm to another country?

This began when American ownership transferred plants to other countries, not only for cheaper wages, but to avoid the pollution regulations of the 70's. Turns out the nation was its own worst enemy. Danged if you do , danged if you don't.

 

[BCP1928]

Yup because we have allowed the poor trade deals for years. Some products sent to Canada have over a 200% tariffs if they choose to use it though it runs anywhere from 24% to 39%, making it hard to send those products there. The rest of the world does the same thing. Time to end the madness.

You want to make tariffs illegal?

 

[BeyondET]

This began when American ownership transferred plants to other countries, not only for cheaper wages, but to avoid the pollution regulations of the 70's. Turns out the nation was its own worst enemy. Danged if you do , danged if you don't.

The companies in the 70's could of invested in making sure plants are meeting the requirements but that would of cut into the profits. I'm sure it's still happening today somewhere.

 

[BeyondET]

You want to make tariffs illegal?

Tariffs have been used for 100s of years if not thousands, sometimes they work, sometimes they don't but its another method to balance trading across nations. So no I wouldn't.

It takes a bit of time to see if it's working or not. Like now it's only been a little over a week since raising tariffs. Every country in the world uses tariffs every day.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

I will admit that China does make some high quality products at a cheaper price than can be made in more developed countries. Those products usually have strict supervision from the company ensuring the products and meeting the higher standards.

But not everything is top notch.

I was in Virginia last week and I have a 82 foot sailboat. It's high class for the folks back in Michigan and cost a little south of half a million. But I am one of the poorer boaters there. Basically I have the gates code and can use most of the facilities but the clubhouse is off-limits unless it's a class they sponsor, a meeting, or the once a month event that all residents can attend (there's on close to my birthday that I'm going to so my wife can feel impotent).

I needed the mooring because my boat draws a lot and needs water under the keel.

Anyhow, my neighbor has a 5 million dollar boat and was replacing their anchor chain because they’re going around the world later. I saw the chain and knew right away it was Chinese from home depot or something.

I started talking with him and asked why he went with the cheaper Chinese chain. He needed 450 feet and the Chinese chain was $4 a foot cheaper and has a test strength of 6600 pounds. That's a lot for someone like me but a 5 million dollar boat is worth more. I only have 250 feet but it’s American and unlike the boat, I couldn't get a loan so shucked out $4000 for my chain.

So I go to home depot, buy a foot, and we hook it up to a hydraulic press and POW! It breaks at 4700 lbs. About 70% of its rated strength. He said that it probably won't ever see that kind of strain and kept the cheap chain. A difference of about $2000 for good chain was just too much. I swear rich people are cheap. I guess that's why you have insurance.

On a side note, my chain is rated for 10,000 pounds and broke at 16,800. (16,796)

 

[timothyu]

I'm sure it's still happening today somewhere.

Of course, soot from China is melting the arctic ice.

 

[BeyondET]

Of course, soot from China is melting the arctic ice.

Good point, the entire world combined doesn't even add up to what China alone is spewing out.

 

[timothyu]

Hence the American owners are not going to come back home and face the unions and regulations

Good point, the entire world combined doesn't even come close to what China alone is spewing out.

 

[SimplyMe]

Of course, soot from China is melting the arctic ice.

Sounds like the Trump administration.

 

[rambot]

How many different ways are there to interpret that?

"plenty"....there's a LOT of ways to interpret that.

"My student had plenty of lice crawling around on her head". For some people, 4 lice would be plenty. For some, that number would be close to 1...for some 50.

Oh yeah, the latest conspiracy theory. What was last week's again? I'm gonna have to keep a list considering how fast one replaces the other.

Just like last time he was in charge.

His list of stupid acts just grows. IT doesn't have to be a conspiracy when he does all this right in front of your eyes.

 

[BeyondET]

Hence the American owners are not going to come back home and face the unions and regulations

If concessions on both sides can happen then its possible. Most of the stuff that comes from China isn't American companies in China. America gave away alot of technology to China to manufacture what Americans use to do.

 

[Bradskii]

China has ripping off everyone for over 40 years, the reason why they have the largest navy in the world. It's time to put the brakes on their plans to rule the world through financial and military means.

Oh. That's the plan. Thanks for letting us know. I had no idea.

 

[BeyondET]

Oh. That's the plan. Thanks for letting us know. I had no idea.

Your welcome, though it's not hard to figure out why China is trying to biuld the world's largest army the world has ever seen. How do you stop a nation determined to rule the world?

 

[BeyondET]

You cut off the money but it's a little to late for that, the clock is ticking.

 

[SimplyMe]

I will admit that China does make some high quality products at a cheaper price than can be made in more developed countries. Those products usually have strict supervision from the company ensuring the products and meeting the higher standards.

But not everything is top notch.

While I have no issue with this, I have to question the point of your story.

I was in Virginia last week and I have a 82 foot sailboat. It's high class for the folks back in Michigan and cost a little south of half a million. But I am one of the poorer boaters there. Basically I have the gates code and can use most of the facilities but the clubhouse is off-limits unless it's a class they sponsor, a meeting, or the once a month event that all residents can attend (there's on close to my birthday that I'm going to so my wife can feel impotent).

I needed the mooring because my boat draws a lot and needs water under the keel.

Anyhow, my neighbor has a 5 million dollar boat and was replacing their anchor chain because they’re going around the world later. I saw the chain and knew right away it was Chinese from home depot or something.

I started talking with him and asked why he went with the cheaper Chinese chain. He needed 450 feet and the Chinese chain was $4 a foot cheaper and has a test strength of 6600 pounds. That's a lot for someone like me but a 5 million dollar boat is worth more. I only have 250 feet but it’s American and unlike the boat, I couldn't get a loan so shucked out $4000 for my chain.

So I go to home depot, buy a foot, and we hook it up to a hydraulic press and POW! It breaks at 4700 lbs. About 70% of its rated strength. He said that it probably won't ever see that kind of strain and kept the cheap chain. A difference of about $2000 for good chain was just too much. I swear rich people are cheap. I guess that's why you have insurance.

On a side note, my chain is rated for 10,000 pounds and broke at 16,800. (16,796)

The story seems to push the idea that "China manufacturing bad" and "America manufacturing good." Instead, the truth is what you say above, that products from the same country can vary in quality based on the process and supervision of the construction. There was a time, particularly in the 80s, when people tended to avoid American cars because they had a horrible build quality. Over the decades those legacy manufacturers have largely worked to improve it, though there are still some exceptions.

As an example, Tesla is known for poor build quality. While it has been a few years, my recollection is that when the Model Y was first sold, various owners had issues with the windshield falling out -- the workers had forgotten to "glue" the windshield in place. There was also an issue where the windows would be put under too much pressure and a window would shatter and fall out while driving, such as this story, which eventually led to Tesla having a recall of over a million vehicles. More recently, there have been the issues with Cybertruck panels falling off, which has become another recall.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of bring manufacturing back to the US -- and was even critical of how companies were outsourcing manufacturing back in the 80s (when they tried to teach us that "greed is good"). It's just, as others have pointed out, Trump's seemingly wishy-washy moves with tariffs is preventing companies from wanting to try and invest in US factories.

 

[Bradskii]

I have a friend who is in some pain. He says that the stupid hurts. I want to help him.

I don't know how.