Free Traders Case For Tariffs

[stevil]

Where have you been? Internationalism began to be pushed even before the league of nations. It solidified with the U.N. and has been on a roll. Here is how they teach kids. "The International Baccalaureate (IB) program's ideology centers on developing inquiring, knowledgeable, and caring young people who contribute to a better and more peaceful world through intercultural understanding and respect, fostering lifelong learning and global citizenship.
Notice the "global citizenship." That is just one example of the evidence of how the wheels have been churning to globalization.

Here is a great quote from Stiglitz a nobel prize economist who served Clinton. "Trump sees the world in terms of a zero-sum game. In reality, globalisation, if well managed, is a positive-sum force: America gains if its friends and allies - whether Australia, the E.U., or Mexico - are stronger. But Trump's approach threatens to turn it into a negative-sum game: America will lose, too."

https://www.brainyquote.com/topics/globalisation-quotes

You are certainly taking the terms "global citizenship" and the term "globalisation" to extremes. Probably based on fear and paranoia.
No one is proposing to do away with countries. Being a global citizen merely means being respectful of people and countries, working/living together as brothers and sisters. Just being nice to each other really. It doesn't mean we should do away with countries and borders. That is a very extreme interpretation. Paranoia to the max!

 

[Pommer]

Where have you been? Internationalism began to be pushed even before the league of nations. It solidified with the U.N. and has been on a roll. Here is how they teach kids. "The International Baccalaureate (IB) program's ideology centers on developing inquiring, knowledgeable, and caring young people who contribute to a better and more peaceful world through intercultural understanding and respect, fostering lifelong learning and global citizenship.
Notice the "global citizenship." That is just one example of the evidence of how the wheels have been churning to globalization.

We’re much better at “doing globalism” nowadays, back when people didn’t move around much, or have neato electronical devices that allow international real-time(ish) communication, international trade was there, but rudimentary for our time.

Why would we use nothing but cannon and smooth-bore muskets in our armed forces when we have better equipment?

What is keeping the nations of the world apart except our continued obedience to what our DNA tells us, to “out compete” and be the biggest strongest and we can’t have stuff if that other nation has even better stuff!

Isn’t Christianity supposed to help people be more than just what their DNA tells them to be?
(Paul’s “natural man” doctrine?)

 

[Always in His Presence]

Tariffs are also used to redress what are seen as structural imbalances in trade.

And that is EXACTLY what the President is doing. It is what he has been saying repeatedly

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

Billionaire investor warns world leaders to not keep Trump waiting if they want a tariff deal

As reactions to President Donald Trump's tariffs roll out, Bill Ackman warns world leaders against waiting too long to try striking a deal with the U.S.

www.foxbusiness.com

Developing nations like Vietnam, Cambodia, and Pakistan may meet President Trump's demand and exempt US products from tariffs in their countries.

But, China or Japan , powerful and wealthy nation, will not negotiate out of economic fear as they must maintain their strength and global status. European countries cannot negotiate individually with the US due to EU directives. With an upcoming election in Canada, anti-American sentiment is prevalent, making politicians unlikely to engage in negotiations with the US.

Bill Ackman is a knowledgeable individual regarding the global economy and politics. Despite this, his statements on Fox News seem perplexing. He understands well that most countries purchasing U.S. products will not negotiate tariffs; however, he continues to assert unrealistic advise to world leader. This tariff discussion highlights the limited understanding many Americans have about the complexities of international relations. Each country has its own domestic policies and regional needs, indicating that a one-size-fits-all approach is impractical.

 

[FAITH-IN-HIM]

And that is EXACTLY what the President is doing. It is what he has been saying repeatedly

The average monthly income in India is $450 USD, whereas in the USA it is $5600 USD. Considering that India has three times the population of the USA, how can India address its trade deficit with the USA when the income of its citizens is twelve times lower than that of Americans?

 

[RocksInMyHead]

The key information found in those articles from foxbusiness.com and justthenews.com and thegatewaypundit.com are that nations all over the world have higher tariffs on the USA than most of the reciprocal tariffs which President Trump is levying.

As has been pointed out multiple times in this thread, this is not true.

Also, more than a few nations are responding favorably to the tariffs.

The only two I saw mentioned were Israel and Vietnam. Except they lowered their tariffs before Trum announced his, and they still got tariffs because - as already pointed out - Trump did not base his tariffs on actual tariff values from other countries. Rather, they're tied to the US trade deficit with those countries.

Also, when tariffs help bring more corporations back into the USA, rather than depend upon inexpensive foreign labor, then that is very good for American workers.

Please explain to me how you plan to grow coffee and bananas at scale in the US.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Also, when tariffs help bring more corporations back into the USA, rather than depend upon inexpensive foreign labor, then that is very good for American workers.

Even if we accept this premise as true (and, in reality, it is, at best, only partially true, with a bunch of big caveats), there are still the questions of when and where these benefits will be realized.

If tariffs do bring manufacturing back to the US, it is extremely unlikely that they will come back to the places that lost manufacturing decades ago. The Bethlehem Steel plant here in Baltimore isn't going to reopen. Ever. The copper wire factories in my home town aren't going to reopen. Ever. The combination of conditions that caused those facilities to originally be founded in those locations no longer exist. The places that were hollowed out by deindustrialization aren't going to be reindustrialized by tariffs. They're going to remain hollowed out barring some other large moves.

On top of that, it takes years - maybe even decades - to reorganize something as large and complicated as international supply chains. And in the mean time, what's the plan? Just make everything more expensive. It's conceivable in some ways that these tariffs might benefit some mfg workers 20 years in the future, but they're going to hurt a lot of people in the mean time.

 

[mark46]

THREE KINDS OF TARIFFS

1) 10% across the board, essentially a 10% tax on imports
There may be exceptions for energy. I'm not sure how this is much different from the VAT and other taxes in other countries. I don't support this import tax which is a sales tax that will disproportionally affect poorer Americans.

2) focused tariffs
There are tariffs on China, auto parts, aluminum and steel
I don't see these as especially unusual. Of course, farmers will again need a $20B (or higher) subsidy as Trump gave them last time.

3) tariffs as punishment for selling more to us than we buy (trade deficit tariffs)
These are simply ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with buying shoes and clothes from Vietnam where the cost to produce might be 1/3 or 1/2 of the cost of producing those products in the US. These companies and American taxpayers should not be taxed because Vietnam cannot afford (or doesn't need) US products.
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BOTTOM LINE
The first two kinds of tariffs may be a bad idea or a good idea, depending on who you talk to. Certainly, unions and lefties have supported this kind of tariff for years. I am a Bill Clinton Democrat. I have opposed this kind of tax for years, but I do understand them and they are not a crazy policy.

On the other hand, so-called "reciprocal" or trade deficit tariffs are just plain crazy and wrong. They show a profound ignorance on the part of Trump and those who support such tariffs. Many Republicans, some of whom have always opposed tariffs are speaking out and have passed legislation in the Senate to move tariff decisions back to Congress, and ending the so-called economic crisis declared by Trump.
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AS AN ASIDE
Just, BTW, these reciprocal tariff amounts are NOT related to the rates of tariffs charged on US goods imported into those countries. They are not related to US having access to those markets. They are not related to the dumping policies of those governments. They are not based on non-tariff restrictions That kind of tariff MIGHT make sense.

The government could single those who have such policies and calculate the effect and then apply this amount (or 1/2 this amount) or tariff. The list might be small, but it they would significant and FOCUSED. This would result on heavy tariffs on China, India, South Korea, Japan, the EU and others.

 

[mark46]

Our politics is almost totally fact-free.

Folks should read the Economist's special section last October 18th on the US economy. Our economy is not the worst of all time, or the worst in the world, or in crisis. Our economy was the envy of the world, coming out of the aftermath of COVID better than almost any country on earth, with lower inflation.

Our inflation is NOT the worst ever. Trump is old enough to remember the inflation of the 70's as well as the mortgage rates of that time.
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I do agree that the government should address the issue of the debt as Peterson and his foundation have begged for decades. Getting rid of 377,000 federal jobs is a good idea as it was in 1994 when we last cut jobs on a large scale. Modernizing our systems is a good idea as it was in 1994 when we last addressed this issue on a large scale.

How many think that the Republican Congress will propose a balanced budget amendment as is the standard for most states? ROFL

 

[trophy33]

Our economy was the envy of the world, coming out of the aftermath of COVID better than almost any country on earth, with lower inflation.

Where can I see a table or a graph comparing countries regarding the recovery and inflation after covid?

Our inflation is NOT the worst ever. Trump is old enough to remember the inflation of the 70's as well as the mortgage rates of that time.

Do you calculate the inflation like in the 70's or do you rather compare it with how it is calculated today?

 

[loveofourlord]

And that is EXACTLY what the President is doing. It is what he has been saying repeatedly

except he's not here is a hint, it's trade imbalance with certain things, like the one when I was a kid, softwood lumber, canadian lumber was much cheaper and better then american, so tariffs were put on to try to help boost american lumber and make it competative. It wasn't, "you make 10% more then we do, were putting random tariffs on stuff.

 

[Hans Blaster]

3) tariffs as punishment for selling more to us than we buy (trade deficit tariffs)
These are simply ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with buying shoes and clothes from Vietnam where the cost to produce might be 1/3 or 1/2 of the cost of producing those products in the US. These companies and American taxpayers should not be taxed because Vietnam cannot afford (or doesn't need) US products.

Not only are tariffs of this sort ridiculous and stupid, but the President lacks the authority to arbitrarily create them.

 

[mark46]

Not only are tariffs of this sort ridiculous and stupid, but the President lacks the authority to arbitrarily create them.

1) The courts will decide that.

2) Also, the Senate has passed bills to return the control of tariffs to Congress, revoking Trump's declaration of economic emergency. The House says that they won't take the bills up. However, given the small majority, I suspect that the needed number will hold out on the master reconciliation bill until the issue is dealt with, especially the trade deficit tariffs and all tariffs on Canada.

 

[KCfromNC]

White House Blasts Media for Fearmongering on Trump's Reciprocal Tariffs

Maybe they should direct their flailing about at the world's financial markets instead, they're giving a much louder message than the "media", whoever that might be referencing.

 

[Always in His Presence]

The average monthly income in India is $450 USD, whereas in the USA it is $5600 USD. Considering that India has three times the population of the USA, how can India address its trade deficit with the USA when the income of its citizens is twelve times lower than that of Americans?

Here is what you missed or ignored. India charges higher tariffs on American goods than America charges for Indian goods.

Having equal tariffs levels the playing field. India with its population of 1.46 billion people who make 5,350.00. If tariffs are actually taxes, then India lowering their tariffs would help their population. Why don’t you support that?

except he's not here is a hint, it's trade imbalance with certain things, like the one when I was a kid, softwood lumber, canadian lumber was much cheaper and better then american, so tariffs were put on to try to help boost american lumber and make it competative. It wasn't, "you make 10% more then we do, were putting random tariffs on stuff.

Except he is. Here’s a hint. He has stated it repeatedly on national tv and various media.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Here is what you missed or ignored. India charges higher tariffs on American goods than America charges for Indian goods.

Not that much higher. India's current tariffs on US goods average about 12% (vs 2% from the US pre-Trump), with actual values ranging from 38% on agricultural products to 2% on oil. I don't see how that justifies a blanket 27% tariff on them.

Having equal tariffs levels the playing field. India with its population of 1.46 billion people who make 5,350.00. If tariffs are actually taxes, then India lowering their tariffs would help their population. Why don’t you support that?

Since Indians don't buy a lot of US-made products (relatively speaking), a reduction in their tariffs on US goods is unlikely to significantly impact the day-to-day costs there.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Since Indians don't buy a lot of US-made products (relatively speaking), a reduction in their tariffs on US goods is unlikely to significantly impact the day-to-day costs there.

Then they should follow Israel's example and bring them to zero and the US will follow suit - and their people who do purchase US goods will not have the "tax" on them, making them less expensive and helping the least of them.

 

[RocksInMyHead]

Then they should follow Israel's example and bring them to zero and the US will follow suit

We will?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/after-israel-fails-to-win-reprieve-from-trumps-tariffs-will-its-economy-be-hit/

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/trump-tariffs-trade-war-stock-market-04-03-2025/card/israel-hit-with-17-tariffs-despite-saying-it-would-scrap-levies-on-u-s-goods-YMtDXBPmtOu018IXjLG5

and their people who do purchase US goods will not have the "tax" on them, making them less expensive and helping the least of them.

US imports constitute about 0.1% of the Indian economy, with about 1/3 of that consisting of oil and minerals - where their tariff is identical to ours (2.31%).

 

[wing2000]

1) The courts will decide that.

2) Also, the Senate has passed bills to return the control of tariffs to Congress, revoking Trump's declaration of economic emergency. The House says that they won't take the bills up. However, given the small majority, I suspect that the needed number will hold out on the master reconciliation bill until the issue is dealt with, especially the trade deficit tariffs and all tariffs on Canada.

If Congress fails to act, the Republican Party will be responsible for the self inflicted economic suicide Trump is imposing on our country and the world.

 

[Always in His Presence]

We will?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/after-israel-fails-to-win-reprieve-from-trumps-tariffs-will-its-economy-be-hit/

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/trump-tariffs-trade-war-stock-market-04-03-2025/card/israel-hit-with-17-tariffs-despite-saying-it-would-scrap-levies-on-u-s-goods-YMtDXBPmtOu018IXjLG5

US imports constitute about 0.1% of the Indian economy, with about 1/3 of that consisting of oil and minerals - where their tariff is identical to ours (2.31%).

And we KNOW that Trump has never revised a tariff after the country made changes - ***cough cough Canada, Mexico cough cough****

And it has been less than 48 hours -