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Scientists speak out about evidence of Intelligent Design in nature..

Hans Blaster

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here's an alternative based on science and Bible:

… biblical chronology falls into place, give or take 100 years: the flood began in 3290 B.C. The creation was in 5532 B.C, 6 and the Earth is 7,500 ± 100 years old.

reference:

In the Beginning Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood; 9th edition

Walt Brown, Ph.D.

FAQ: When Was the Flood, the Exodus, and Creation?

page 484-486

This is unrelated to the current conversation or the post you replied to. If you want to see something hot jetting in to the sky look at the volcano post I made earlier.
 
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Mountainmike

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Your condescension is noted and not needed.

"End of a life in science"? in a 1988 pop sci book?

The measurement of the age of the Earth is not about the nature of quantum reality or the role of the observer in QM.

Are you talking about things like this:

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1411.3987


Oh, good grief. If you go out to measure "the speed of light" and its fixed relative to the definition of units, then you are actually measuring some other property. You just have to work through what it is. Also the methods for measuring the changes in c over cosmic time measure relative changes regardless of the absolute definitions (and whether it should be absolute). It's not a "cover up". Your conspiratorial thinking is not welcome or valid.

Oh, so it is about measurements like the one I linked. That has nothing to do with whether "c" is a valid constant for all of the places it is use. It is just a reminder that actual photons propagate through "vacuums" that have virtual stuff in them. It has no impact on any place "c" appears in an equation other than photon propagation.

I don't see any skepticism here, only a false or pseudo-skepticism.

The "extrapolation" is only in the (measurable) stability of the physical constants as we have tried to show you.

It really doesn't. The measured age and precision have not been controversial outside creationist circles in over a half century.

The measurement and precision aren't, but your pseudo-skepticism is.

I suggest experimental ballistics of vertically launched 155-mm shells. Leave your login credentials with your solicitor so that we may get a final report.

There really aren't any here. It is a basic measurement of rocks and minerals with radiometric dating, not a question about the meaning of life.

THat you write about the measurement data of mineral ages as a times series model only illustrates the combination of your ignorance of the science behind it and the obstinance in your refusal to learn anything about it from the explanations that have been given to you repeatedly on this thread.

Sigh.
Your scientism is noted.
The lack of scientific judgement of validity of measurement and fundamentals of metrology are equally noted .

The grand design hawking wrote in 2010!, you researched the hell out of that.
By that time he had ditched scientific realism and ( with it the theory of everything )
and ended with model dependent realism.
I suggest you read it.

The “ stability “ you claim is measured over decades. The extrapolation is over hundreds of millions times longer.
you have no idea what macro events or even micro events may have influenced radiation over such a long period.
even thunderstorms can be a source of a variety of radiations.

And you do not even have a verified start point to the extrapolation. What was there before…

You have only precision, no provable accuracy.
That is the view of a professional modeller.

So I take it all with a pinch. It’s just a model.
The question of realism is not restricted to quantum effects.

The problem with the tenets of Scientism is that assumptions- like realism or age of earth- they are repeated so often they gain the status of facts, whilst only assumptions
 
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BCP1928

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Your scientism is noted.
The lack of scientific judgement of validity of measurement and fundamentals of metrology are equally noted .

The grand design hawking wrote in 2010!, you researched the hell out of that.
By that time he had ditched scientific realism and ( with it the theory of everything )
and ended with model dependent realism.
I suggest you read it.

The “ stability “ you claim is measured over decades. The extrapolation is over hundreds of millions times longer.
you have no idea what macro events or even micro events may have influenced radiation over such a long period.
even thunderstorms can be a source of a variety of radiations.

And you do not even have a verified start point to the extrapolation. What was there before…

You have only precision, no provable accuracy.
That is the view of a professional modeller.

So I take it all with a pinch. It’s just a model.
The question of realism is not restricted to quantum effects.

The problem with the tenets of Scientism is that assumptions- like realism or age of earth- they are repeated so often they gain the status of facts, whilst only assumptions
So if these scientismists you are talking about think they age of the Earth is an accurately known fact, why don't you go and complain to them about it?
 
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Mountainmike

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So if these scientismists you are talking about think they age of the Earth is an accurately known fact, why don't you go and complain to them about it?
Why Bother ?
We Live in a world of scientism, in which all sorts of more important assumptions proliferate amongst scientific realists.

like .. there is no known pathway to the hideously complicated minimum cell we know , and there is no pathway proposed to life ( using standard definitons of life) that passes the criteria to be a hypothesis . There is a complete blank , yet atheists push the origin of life chemical evolution pathway as though it were a fact!

If the science of earth age interests you, you might care to check out the following…
1/ where did uranium come from anyway? Was it neutron star collisions or supernovae? Nobody knows which or how many events.
2/ what’s the earth made of? In the core is there thorium? Potassium? Uranium? How much? Nobody know and geologists and geochemists can’t agree,
3/ so what was the cloud the earth came from , made of, and when? What shape was it? Nobody can say.
4/ in Gabon it is noted that natural nuclear reactors moderated by water appear to have existed, so manipulating heavy earth elements Were there other natural reactors or processes affecting uranium ? How many and when.
5/ I pointed out even thunderstorms can produce radiations, some of which may be capable of influencing nuclear decomposition, even if at low level.
So we simply don’t know enough to be certain of it all.

Yet our favourite followers of scientism who want to believe they know how and when the earth was formed , can’t tell us what it is made of or where it came from. Only the age to a percent they claim, and an assumption no other radiations influenced ! Just as they want to tell you they k ow where life came from.

Me? I take their date with a pinch. Too many assumptions.
they have precision, it is not the same as accuracy.
And radio dating is not definitive it is indicative. So speaks an archeologist.

As you see if you question the tenets of the followers of faith of scientism , they are rude in response!
they hate challenges to dogmas of the atheist/ realist faith. Why they bother defeats me! How does admitting scientific uncertainty cause problems for them?
 
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sjastro

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Hans.
As I said I have been abroad. I answered a post I saw in my notifications.

II find it sad you have lost what must have been an enquiring mind once.
Since you have the habit of quoting scientists and philosophers while making snide comments, Carl Sagan once stated "It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out."
Conflating ignorance for an enquiring mind is symptomatic of one’s brains falling out, as a few examples from your post indicates.
im guessing you must be aware of that the speed of light is not always measured as constant showing statistically significant but small variation, and may not be the constant generally assumed.
It’s sad that they “ solved it “ ( aka swept under carpet) by redefining speed and letting distance vary in standards
making research harder.
The speed of light c is a rare example of a constant predicted by theory and calculated using c = 1/√( εₒμₒ) where εₒ, μₒ are the electric and magnetic permittivity of free space respectively which was confirmed by experiment.

The most precise measurement of the speed of light was achieved in 1972 using laser interferometry, yielding a value of 299,792.4562 ± 0.0011 km/s which represents a variation of 0.000000367%.
In 1983 the SI (International Standard of Units) redefined the meter in terms of the speed of light, making c= 299,792,458 m/s an exact value; why because it is a constant predicted by theory and the variation is negligible even if one assumes it represents an actual variation in the speed of light rather than experimental error.

A variation of 0.000000367%. is clearly not ‘statistically significant’ and the nonsense you are spouting is nothing more than a conspiracy theory.
Now research is Confirming that free space modelled as containing virtual or transitory particles certainly does cause variations. If the speed of light is not constant how can you rely on anything else being invariant over billions of years?
So now you are resorting to making up rubbish, virtual particles which are fluctuations to the non-zero energy expectation value of the vacuum do not cause variations to the speed of light.
Here is a post that shows the mathematics behind why the vacuum is a field in the lowest energy state.



This was an early development of QED (Quantum Electrodynamics) the most successful theory in physics which successfully unified special relativity and quantum mechanics.
Being a relativistic quantum mechanical theory it is based on the very premise the speed of light in a vacuum is a constant. The prediction of virtual particles beginning in the late 1920s, to the Casimir effect in the early 1950s and finally the experimental verification of the effect in the 1990s is founded on this premise.

I take it all with a great deal of interest Tempered by scepticism, it is after all only the latest version of an ever changing model,a model that gets stranger the longer you look at it. There was a time that Newton supporters ridiculed the idea of light modelled as waves And ridiculed all who dared suggest it.
Nice to see the false equivalence fallacy getting a run now with along with the personal incredulity fallacy and argument by repetition fallacy.

AllI i have said is the extrapolation of age of earth over such a long time, from such short observation window has many potential sources of error.
The stated accuracy is tight. So it remains to be seen.
Since philosophy is being thrown around in this thread, Occam’s razor is most applicable where decay rates remaining constant is the simplest explanation without the embarrassing side effects of our non-existence for variable decay rates since fundamental constants such as α as mentioned in a previous post would also change.

So rather than being the profound thinker you are always shoving down our throats, you haven’t thought this through or using Sagan’s terminology your brains have fallen out.

Just because error bands are 1% reflects precision not accuracy, and so it is with age of earth.
Good grief doesn’t any register, how many times do I need to repeat myself before it finally sinks in………..
If we were reliant on a single test method then there is some validity in your statement but there are eight radiometric methods with different decay constants and one radiometric method not based on a decay constant (fission track) available where the age of the Earth falls within their ranges.
When samples using multiple methods are dated not only do the error bars overlap but most importantly the error bars are small, the results consistently show the age of the Earth is 4.543 billion years with an error range of +/- 50 million years.

Problems arise with accuracy when the error bars are too large, the Hubble constant in cosmology is a case in point.
Initially the error bars for the Hubble constant did overlap when measured using the CMB and Cepheid variables, however the Planck mission produced far more precise measurements for the CMB than the earlier COBE and WMAP missions resulting in smaller error bars which no longer overlapped with the Cepheid variable results.
The issue remains whether the results are reflective of experimental error or the discrepancy is real requiring new physics.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Your scientism is noted.

"Scientism" you say? Is that what you think scientists practice, hmm. Is that like how atheists practice "atheism"? (I think not.) A few pages into a thread linked in response to this series of your posts quotes a fellow critic of "scientism" defining it as "Scientism as an ideaology maintains that all truth is discoverable by science that employs methodological materialism." This seems reasonable to me, and it is not a position I hold, nor one that has *ANYTHING* at all to do with the topic of our disagreement.

The lack of scientific judgement of validity of measurement and fundamentals of metrology are equally noted .
I've forgotten more about meteorology than you ever knew, but I'll kindly ask you to not question my professional judgement again.
The grand design hawking wrote in 2010!, you researched the hell out of that.
He wrote one famous book I read 35 years ago around the time I went to college. You assume incorrectly that actual physicists pay attention to the pop sci books their peers write.
By that time he had ditched scientific realism and ( with it the theory of everything )
and ended with model dependent realism.
I suggest you read it.
I'm not interested in Hawking's philosophical position, nor does it seem to have anything to do with the topic at hand.
The “ stability “ you claim is measured over decades. The extrapolation is over hundreds of millions times longer.
The "decades" part is the repeated measurements of the alpha-decay rate of U-235 and U-238 (and other decay rates) is over recent decades, but that is *NOT* the stability I was speaking of. (It should be clear from what I wrote earlier as well as what others have written.)

The stability I have written about is the stability of the laws and constants of physics. *That* is what you *seem* to be claiming is not settled.
you have no idea what macro events or even micro events may have influenced radiation over such a long period.
even thunderstorms can be a source of a variety of radiations.

What kind of radiation are thunderstorms creating and why is it relevant? We are talking about dating grains embedded in the matrix of buried rocks. What possible impact could lightning radiation have on the decay of isotopes in these grains?
And you do not even have a verified start point to the extrapolation. What was there before…
This does not make sense. Write more clearly.
You have only precision, no provable accuracy.
We've gone over this a few times.

So let's try a slightly different tack:

If you think the decay rates are not demonstrated to be stable, provide a theory of alpha decay that varies in time. For reference here is a theory of beta decay. It depends on the density and energy of states of the parent nucleus and the physical constants.

https://phys.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Nuclear_and_Particle_Physics/Introduction_to_Applied_Nuclear_Physics_(Cappellaro)/07%3A_Radioactive_Decay_Part_II/7.02%3A_Beta_Decay

Can you provide a similar theory for alpha decays that could explain such a variation or uncertainty that you think is unresolved?

If it is the "unknown history" of the fundamental constants, can you provide any experimental evidence, observational evidence, or even a model tied to data for such variations?

All we get from you is a faux skepticism. No evidence for your claim has been presented. We invite you to make that presentation now. Why should we add an additional complication to our physical models with some unidentified external nuclear input or time variation of the laws of physics unless evidence for such is presented?

That is the view of a professional modeller.
Here's an equation you can model: dN/dt = -C Hope it's not too hard.
So I take it all with a pinch. It’s just a model.
The question of realism is not restricted to quantum effects.

The problem with the tenets of Scientism is that assumptions- like realism or age of earth- they are repeated so often they gain the status of facts, whilst only assumptions
There is no "scientism" going on here. This (the age of the Earth) is a scientific question. Scientific methods are not being inappropriately applied to the question.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Good grief doesn’t any register, how many times do I need to repeat myself before it finally sinks in………..
If we were reliant on a single test method then there is some validity in your statement but there are eight radiometric methods with different decay constants and one radiometric method not based on a decay constant (fission track) available where the age of the Earth falls within their ranges.
When samples using multiple methods are dated not only do the error bars overlap but most importantly the error bars are small, the results consistently show the age of the Earth is 4.543 billion years with an error range of +/- 50 million years.

In addition to these methods related to the particular grains, etc., in rocks, there is a less precise additional check -- the age of the Sun. The mass, composition, and structure of the Sun match a star of that mass with an age that is consistent with the geochronology of the Earth and Solar System.
 
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dlamberth

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The problem with the tenets of Scientism is that assumptions- like realism or age of earth- they are repeated so often they gain the status of facts, whilst only assumptions
I still can't figure out what Scientism is. With the age of the Earth, there are real physical geological structures that can be and are radiometric tested that at least give us the youngest dates to work with. Beyond that, computer modeling can give us some good assumptions to work with. But there's other resources to dump into the modeling such as the dating of meteorites. Assumptions in the geological community, and I suppose every other scientifc community are ripe PhD paper producers.

Where I spin off in a different direction though, is that radiometric testing I believe gives us a rough date when the planet Theia crashed into the Earth, throwing off material that formed the Moon. I believe that event was so totally violent to the planet that it was turned completely inside out causing a forced reset of the Earth, which is what we date.
 
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BCP1928

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Why Bother ?
We Live in a world of scientism, in which all sorts of more important assumptions proliferate amongst scientific realists.

like .. there is no known pathway to the hideously complicated minimum cell we know , and there is no pathway proposed to life ( using standard definitons of life) that passes the criteria to be a hypothesis . There is a complete blank , yet atheists push the origin of life chemical evolution pathway as though it were a fact!
None of the "atheists" here are. I don't know what good it will do you to complain to us about it.
If the science of earth age interests you, you might care to check out the following…
1/ where did uranium come from anyway? Was it neutron star collisions or supernovae? Nobody knows which or how many events.
2/ what’s the earth made of? In the core is there thorium? Potassium? Uranium? How much? Nobody know and geologists and geochemists can’t agree,
3/ so what was the cloud the earth came from , made of, and when? What shape was it? Nobody can say.
4/ in Gabon it is noted that natural nuclear reactors moderated by water appear to have existed, so manipulating heavy earth elements Were there other natural reactors or processes affecting uranium ? How many and when.
5/ I pointed out even thunderstorms can produce radiations, some of which may be capable of influencing nuclear decomposition, even if at low level.
So we simply don’t know enough to be certain of it all.

Yet our favourite followers of scientism who want to believe they know how and when the earth was formed , can’t tell us what it is made of or where it came from. Only the age to a percent they claim, and an assumption no other radiations influenced ! Just as they want to tell you they k ow where life came from.

Me? I take their date with a pinch. Too many assumptions.
they have precision, it is not the same as accuracy.
And radio dating is not definitive it is indicative. So speaks an archeologist.

As you see if you question the tenets of the followers of faith of scientism , they are rude in response!
they hate challenges to dogmas of the atheist/ realist faith. Why they bother defeats me! How does admitting scientific uncertainty cause problems for them?
I don't know. All of the scientists I know or whose work I read freely admit to scientific uncertaintly. Anybody who understands the scientific method understands it too. It's by way of being a given.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Why Bother ?
We Live in a world of scientism, in which all sorts of more important assumptions proliferate amongst scientific realists.
The age of the Earth is a scientific question. Using science to sort it out is not "scientism".
like .. there is no known pathway to the hideously complicated minimum cell we know , and there is no pathway proposed to life ( using standard definitons of life) that passes the criteria to be a hypothesis . There is a complete blank , yet atheists push the origin of life chemical evolution pathway as though it were a fact!
This has nothing to do with atheists or the age of the Earth.
If the science of earth age interests you, you might care to check out the following…
1/ where did uranium come from anyway? Was it neutron star collisions or supernovae? Nobody knows which or how many events.
The r-process.

For details of the current understanding here are two current reviews:

https://journals.aps.org/rmp/abstract/10.1103/RevModPhys.93.015002

Current Status of r-Process Nucleosynthesis

Uranium is in the third r-process peak. It takes very neutron rich material to reach it, so it is most likely NS-NS mergers.

BUT...

The origin of Earth's uranium has no relevance to the dating of zircon crystals. The geochemistry matters. The nuclear decay rates matter. But the origin of the uranium is no more important than the origin of the oxygen is to the understanding of Earth's water cycle.

2/ what’s the earth made of?
Earth's inner core - Wikipedia
In the core is there thorium? Potassium? Uranium? How much?
All elements should be found there as they are in the crust.
Nobody know and geologists and geochemists can’t agree,
And even if that was true --- IT DOESN'T MATTER. What matters are the surface grains, etc. that are dated. It doesn't matter if the core is made of uranium, thorium, or that slime in Cadbury "eggs".
3/ so what was the cloud the earth came from , made of, and when? What shape was it? Nobody can say.
As everyone knows, Gorbachev's birth mark was really the Universe imposing the shape of our primordial cloud into our consciousness. (Or maybe, it is irrelevant.)
4/ in Gabon it is noted that natural nuclear reactors moderated by water appear to have existed, so manipulating heavy earth elements Were there other natural reactors or processes affecting uranium ? How many and when.
You seem like a generally competant person. You should be able to handle a google search. Until then here's a Wikipedia article you would have found:

Natural nuclear fission reactor - Wikipedia
5/ I pointed out even thunderstorms can produce radiations, some of which may be capable of influencing nuclear decomposition, even if at low level.
So we simply don’t know enough to be certain of it all.
What is this mechanism? How does it impact isotope ratios in ancient grains? How does it alter the decay rates (if it does at all).
Yet our favourite followers of scientism who want to believe they know how and when the earth was formed , can’t tell us what it is made of or where it came from. Only the age to a percent they claim, and an assumption no other radiations influenced ! Just as they want to tell you they k ow where life came from.
No followers of scientism here, nor does scientism have anything to do with actual scientific questions.
Me? I take their date with a pinch. Too many assumptions.
they have precision, it is not the same as accuracy.
You don't give us reason to think you are even remotely qualified or informed enough to analyze this question.
And radio dating is not definitive it is indicative. So speaks an archeologist.
Geology is not archeology.
As you see if you question the tenets of the followers of faith of scientism , they are rude in response!
they hate challenges to dogmas of the atheist/ realist faith. Why they bother defeats me! How does admitting scientific uncertainty cause problems for them?
More irrelevant invective.
 
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Mountainmike

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The age of the Earth is a scientific question. Using science to sort it out is not "scientism".

This has nothing to do with atheists or the age of the Earth.

The r-process.

For details of the current understanding here are two current reviews:

https://journals.aps.org/rmp/abstract/10.1103/RevModPhys.93.015002

Current Status of r-Process Nucleosynthesis

Uranium is in the third r-process peak. It takes very neutron rich material to reach it, so it is most likely NS-NS mergers.

BUT...

The origin of Earth's uranium has no relevance to the dating of zircon crystals. The geochemistry matters. The nuclear decay rates matter. But the origin of the uranium is no more important than the origin of the oxygen is to the understanding of Earth's water cycle.


Earth's inner core - Wikipedia

All elements should be found there as they are in the crust.

And even if that was true --- IT DOESN'T MATTER. What matters are the surface grains, etc. that are dated. It doesn't matter if the core is made of uranium, thorium, or that slime in Cadbury "eggs".

As everyone knows, Gorbachev's birth mark was really the Universe imposing the shape of our primordial cloud into our consciousness. (Or maybe, it is irrelevant.)

You seem like a generally competant person. You should be able to handle a google search. Until then here's a Wikipedia article you would have found:

Natural nuclear fission reactor - Wikipedia

What is this mechanism? How does it impact isotope ratios in ancient grains? How does it alter the decay rates (if it does at all).

No followers of scientism here, nor does scientism have anything to do with actual scientific questions.

You don't give us reason to think you are even remotely qualified or informed enough to analyze this question.

Geology is not archeology.

More irrelevant invective.
I repeat , the supposed “ accuracy” of date of earth makes simplistic , something which is complicated

The guess of age relies on too many assumptions . Even “how do you calibrate half lifes “ is a fascinating subject and full of assumptions and trip wires.including Basic stuff. eg “How do I know i managed to count all the radiation?” You don’t Know. That the answers are consistent , can just mean they are consistently Wrong. Have you never heard of systematic error?

But I guess “ how can I trust measurements and observations”, and “how can I trust a model” ? How can I prove there are no other factors? It All mattered to me. It had to Matter.
if I got it wrong it could kill people in military. Academia rarely has that problem.

Your seeming certainty of it all, in the light of an uncertain universe , that your senses cannot even detect , baffles me.
Science admits , even on the models it has, that most of the matter and energy is missing! / unaccounted.!
That should produce humility , for what you do not know , and you cannot know , all by Itself.

But scientism Rules, heh! Be rude to those who disagree!

Science has a place.but It does not claim to be and it cannot contain or model the whole of reality ( whatever reality is) . To pretend science can or does model “ it all “ is scientism

Not least your observations and knowledge of universe are limited to interactions with your senses in your dimensions only.The rest you can only guess at.

for me date of earth has too many assumptions. It’s a guess. Maybe even a good guess. But a guess none the less.

Any chance of a civil conversation instead?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I repeat , the supposed “ accuracy” of date of earth makes simplistic something which is complicated

The guess of age relies on too many assumptims. Even how do you calibrate half lifes is a fascinating subject and full of assumptions and trip wires.including Basic stuff. eg How do I know i managed to count all the radiation? You don’t Know. That the answers are consistent can just mean they are consistently Wrong.

But I guess “ how can I trust measurements and observations”, and how can I trust a model? How can I prove there are no other factors? All mattered to me.
if I got it wrong it could kill people in military. Academia rarely has that problem.

Your seeming certainty of it all, in the light of an uncertain universe that your senses cannot even detect baffles me.
Science admits even on the models it has, most of the matter and energy is missing / unaccounted.
That should produce humility for what you do not know and cannot know all by Itself.

But scientism Rules, heh! Be rude to those who disagree!
Science has a place. It does not claim to be and cannot contain or model the whole of reality. Whatever reality is.
not least your observations and knowledge of universe are limited to interactioms with your senses in your dimensions. The rest you can only guess at.

Any chance of a civil conversation instead?

I will be 100% honest here: this entire spiel of yours comes across as someone who doesn't know a thing they're talking about and in wanting to be seen as smart enough to know, talks rudely and condescendingly to anyone and everyone.

How do you expect anyone to have a civil conversation with you when you can't even give anyone else that?
 
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Mountainmike

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I will be 100% honest here: this entire spiel of yours comes across as someone who doesn't know a thing they're talking about and in wanting to be seen as smart enough to know, talks rudely and condescendingly to anyone and everyone.

How do you expect anyone to have a civil conversation with you when you can't even give anyone else that?
If you ever answered my technical questions raised maybe you would have credibility to dare make the above remark on what I know. I have cited numerous issues which can question an over simplistic dating. It’s the error bounds I am arguing about.

So I assume you can answer just the last one I asked, since you dare claim I don’t know a thing?

in calibrating a half life, on which the uranium lead dating is based , how do you know you are capturing all the radiation to count? you don’t. It’s a known issue, and one of many. I study a lot more widely than my detractors. I am guessing on calibrating half life’s, it is YOU that doesn’t know a thing about It.. At one point I worked on modelling nuclear fuel manufacture and hotspots. So I do know a thing or two about measuring counts.

It’s True you all agree with each other.

I quoted hawking on his ultimate conclusion on model based reality. You should read it.

scientism has taken over from science.

Wise philosophers could have told him that centuries ago on the question of what you can know.
 
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SelfSim

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If you ever answered my technical questions raised maybe you would have credibility to dare make the above remark on what I know. I have cited numerous issues which can question an over simplistic dating. It’s the error bounds I am arguing about.

So I assume you can answer just the last one I asked, since you dare claim I don’t know a thing?

in calibrating a half life, on which the uranium lead dating is based , how do you know you are capturing all the radiation to count? you don’t. It’s a known issue, and one of many. I study a lot more widely than my detractors. I am guessing on calibrating half life’s, it is YOU that doesn’t know a thing about It.. At one point I worked on modelling nuclear fuel manufacture and hotspots. So I do know a thing or two about measuring counts.

It’s True you all agree with each other.

I quoted hawking on his ultimate conclusion on model based reality. You should read it.

scientism has taken over from science.

Wise philosophers could have told him that centuries ago on the question of what you can know.
As I read your post, I am reminded of the 'flees in a jar' problem: Flees will jump to the height of the lid when put inside a container. When the lid is removed, they keep jumping to the same height, never freeing themselves.

I'm left wondering how you could ever escape the confines of your belief in the existence of perfection?

I know one thing for sure, you'll never convince me into being motivated to jump down that rabbit hole .. like you evidently have.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I repeat , the supposed “ accuracy” of date of earth makes simplistic , something which is complicated
We know what your claim is. We just are waiting for you to justify it.
The guess of age relies on too many assumptions .
This is part of what gives you away -- you call it a "guess" rather than providing an analysis of the error budgets.
Even “how do you calibrate half lifes “ is a fascinating subject and full of assumptions and trip wires.including Basic stuff. eg “How do I know i managed to count all the radiation?” You don’t Know.
This is nothing more than a list of things you don't specify nor provide any reason *why* any particular issue is an issue.

The information you seek is in the literature. For example the mass of U-238

https://arxiv.org/pdf/2312.17041

Or an evaluation of the U-238 decay chain:

The re-evaluation of decay data for the U-238 chain

What you seem to be unaware of is the existence of a small community of "data evaluators" that evaluate nuclear properties using measured data on a regular basis. The above link is one of those evaluations.

That the answers are consistent , can just mean they are consistently Wrong.
The same answers from different methods generally shows the answer to that question is a simple -- "no".
Have you never heard of systematic error?
Of course I have. What scale of "systemic error" do you wish to claim on the uranium decay rates? Show your work.
But I guess “ how can I trust measurements and observations”, and “how can I trust a model” ? How can I prove there are no other factors? It All mattered to me. It had to Matter.
if I got it wrong it could kill people in military. Academia rarely has that problem.
Why more of this sideline needling? Per your final statement of the post you want a civil conversation. This is not how to achieve it.
Your seeming certainty of it all, in the light of an uncertain universe , that your senses cannot even detect , baffles me.
Science admits , even on the models it has, that most of the matter and energy is missing! / unaccounted.!
That should produce humility , for what you do not know , and you cannot know , all by Itself.
There is a vast amount of data and cross checking that has been done in the background. The number of times I have seen discussions of what might be unknown or what the unknown impact of some effect that is known to exist, but hasn't been measured or tested yet would boggle your mind. (Sometimes it seems as if that is all we ever do.) Real issues in these kinds of measurements (of ages of rocks) have piles and piles of known issues, limitations, and caveats. These are not unknown to those doing geochronolgy. It would behoove you to stop implying there are vast areas of ignored issues floating behind the work of professionals.
But scientism Rules, heh! Be rude to those who disagree!
The age of the earth is a scientific topic. Nothing about it relates to scientism. (Ha! My inline spellchecker has rejected the word "scientism".)
Science has a place.but It does not claim to be and it cannot contain or model the whole of reality ( whatever reality is) . To pretend science can or does model “ it all “ is scientism
This is the place for science. What will it take for you to understand that?
Not least your observations and knowledge of universe are limited to interactions with your senses in your dimensions only.The rest you can only guess at.
Which of our senses should we use for uranium decay? What does alpha-decay smell like?
for me date of earth has too many assumptions. It’s a guess. Maybe even a good guess. But a guess none the less.
It isn't a guess and no professional should accept as binding the "sketicism" of uninformed amateurs.
Any chance of a civil conversation instead?
That's up to you.
 
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BCP1928

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I repeat , the supposed “ accuracy” of date of earth makes simplistic , something which is complicated
You, yourself, are doing a lot of "supposing" about how accurate the age of the Earth determinided by science is claimed to be.
 
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River Jordan

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You, yourself, are doing a lot of "supposing" about how accurate the age of the Earth determinided by science is claimed to be.
To me, the more interesting aspect of all this is how many times Mike's objections and questions have been directly answered with great detail, only to see him completely ignore it all and just repeat the same objections and questions.
 
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SelfSim

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To me, the more interesting aspect of all this is how many times Mike's objections and questions have been directly answered with great detail, only to see him completely ignore it all and just repeat the same objections and questions.
Be careful .. his response is likely to point you to some unobtainable book .. written in invisible ink.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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If you ever answered my technical questions raised maybe you would have credibility to dare make the above remark on what I know. I have cited numerous issues which can question an over simplistic dating. It’s the error bounds I am arguing about.

So I assume you can answer just the last one I asked, since you dare claim I don’t know a thing?

in calibrating a half life, on which the uranium lead dating is based , how do you know you are capturing all the radiation to count? you don’t. It’s a known issue, and one of many. I study a lot more widely than my detractors. I am guessing on calibrating half life’s, it is YOU that doesn’t know a thing about It.. At one point I worked on modelling nuclear fuel manufacture and hotspots. So I do know a thing or two about measuring counts.

It’s True you all agree with each other.

I quoted hawking on his ultimate conclusion on model based reality. You should read it.

scientism has taken over from science.

Wise philosophers could have told him that centuries ago on the question of what you can know.

More waffle and more arrogance.

I don't need to answer any of your questions, not only because I'm in no position to answer them, but from seeing people who can answer them, your reactions to those answers are telling.

Blaming 'scientism' is nothing more than a copout from you.
 
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sjastro

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If you ever answered my technical questions raised maybe you would have credibility to dare make the above remark on what I know. I have cited numerous issues which can question an over simplistic dating. It’s the error bounds I am arguing about.

So I assume you can answer just the last one I asked, since you dare claim I don’t know a thing?

in calibrating a half life, on which the uranium lead dating is based , how do you know you are capturing all the radiation to count? you don’t. It’s a known issue, and one of many. I study a lot more widely than my detractors. I am guessing on calibrating half life’s, it is YOU that doesn’t know a thing about It.. At one point I worked on modelling nuclear fuel manufacture and hotspots. So I do know a thing or two about measuring counts.

It’s True you all agree with each other.

I quoted hawking on his ultimate conclusion on model based reality. You should read it.

scientism has taken over from science.

Wise philosophers could have told him that centuries ago on the question of what you can know.
You clearly do not know a thing or two about measuring counts such as being able to differentiate between a macroscopic and microscopic system.

Let’s start off with a very simple example, measuring the air pressure in a tyre.
How do you think the air pressure is measured with a gauge, does it measure the average pressure exerted by molecules or the individual effect of molecules striking the inside of the tyre?
Hopefully you would have answered the former which is a macroscopic system defined by a statistical distribution whereas the latter is a microscopic system.

The same principles apply to radiometric dating, you are dealing with a macroscopic system typically composed of trillions of radioactive atoms.
Radioactive decay is probabilistic in nature and not surprisingly follows an exponential statistical distribution given exponential decay is involved.
For very large numbers the distribution follows a Poisson distribution where the probability P(n) of n atoms decaying in time t is given by:

P(n) = [(kNₒt)ⁿexp(-kNₒt)]/n!

Nₒ is population or sample size, k is the decay constant.
Furthermore since radioactive decay is probabilistic, the half-life t₀.₅ = ln(2)/k is the median value for the distribution.

Now for the nonsense in your post, firstly mass spectrometers are highly efficient near 100% for decay counting and even if there was a radiation counting error of say 5% which is treating the system as microscopic and not macroscopic, the exponential decay curve can still be fitted statistically and does not meaningfully alter the half-life calculation.

Secondly it is not the half-life being calibrated but the decay constant.
When calibrating the decay constant for U-Pb as an example, the clock is reset by melting the sample to expel any Pb daughter atoms, mass spectrometers being highly sensitive will detect Pb daughter atoms during the decay process even when the time t is very short.

To give you an idea of what this time frame is and using uranium metal as the calibration sample instead of ores.

Decay constant k of U-238 is 1.55125×10⁻¹⁰  yr⁻¹.
The maximum practical sample weight for a thermal ionization mass spectrometer (TIMS) is ~1 μg and the molar mass of U-238  is 238 gmol⁻¹.
The number of U-238 atoms Nₒ = (1 μg/ gmol⁻¹) x 6.022 x 10²³ atoms/mol ≈ 2.53 x 10¹⁵.

For the detection threshold based on a 1% precision for k, Δk/k ≤ 0.01.
The uncertainty in Pb counts is Δn ≈ √n since the standard deviation σ of a Poisson distribution is √n.
The relative uncertainty is therefore Δn/n=√n /n = 1/√n ≤ 0.01  ⟹  n ≥10⁴ atoms.

The number of atoms n that have decayed in time t is given by the equation;
n = Nₒ(1-exp(-kt)) ≈ k Nₒt where kt << 1.
t = 10⁴ /(2.53 x 10¹⁵)(1.55125×10⁻¹⁰  ) ≈ 0.0255 years ≈ 9.3 days.

Note we don't need to use ridiculously long time frames to calibrate which can also be cross checked with other mass spectrometers.
Get yourself an education on the subject and stop making up rubbish.
 
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