Rfk drops ball

[ThatRobGuy]

Your equivalence is so bad. No one would complain about a head of HHS that is a smoker, or is unfit, or isn't beautiful enough, or doesn't have 6 pack abs or is overweight, or has some medical issue like diabetes, or asthma or whatever.


Trying to put being personally overweight on the same scale of a dangerous appointee to head of HSS as having an anti-vaxxer is just mind boggling.

What kind of danger does an overweight head of HHS present? Are they going to ban healthy foods?

No, but they're going to be less likely to ban the unhealthy foods that they may personally enjoy, and instead, favor policies like trying to increase access to the pharmaceuticals that offset the bad decisions. (like some countries that have started pushing for free ozempic to low-income individuals for weight loss)

Belgium (one of the countries mentioned before) had such a run on Ozempic that they had to end up considering a ban on using it for reasons outside of diabetes because so many people were using it to drop 20lbs rather than making a simple diet modification.


Or, if push comes to shove and it needs to be done, a person who is obese is going to be less likely to entertain things resembling Japan's "Metabo Law" if the problem ever got bad enough that it's needed.

 

[probinson]

people use it, but it's not reliable to prove, it's a step to find, problem with vaers is A) it's self reporting not empyrical data and B) it can be as benign as I had a headache, to as unrelated as, "My foot fell off." it's there to find actual signals, if there is a sudden rise in incidents that can be related to the vaccine they can check it, but it's not evidence itself.

Yes, I agree.

So with all of that noise in the data, how are we accurately tracking safety concerns with vaccines?

Spoiler alert: We're not.

On chance, can't find mmr rates, but it's low and only immune ompromised, but 1-5% death rate depending on the severity of the surgery. And same with different vaccines, plus the amount of people that die from the vaccine are way less then those that die from covid.

You seem to be mixing data. I would agree that COVID vaccination was likely a net positive for elderly and immunocompromised. But the risk/benefit calculus is quite different for young, healthy people. Young, healthy males in particular were at elevated risk for myocarditis from COVID vaccination, and at virtually no risk from the disease itself.

If there had been nuance in the vaccine recommendations, I don't suspect we'd be having this discussion. But there wasn't. Every living, breathing thing was to get vaccinated. And boosted. And boosted again. And again. And again. And again. With no evidence that additional boosting was providing any real benefit. But we were introducing those young men to potential harms that were unnecessary.

 

[probinson]

You’re implying that Big Pharma is active in trying to have the best product available in the future?

No. I'm stating directly that you could throw darts at a dart board and get a more accurate "prediction" for what flu strain will be prevalent next year. The "advisory" committee" is really not needed for this guess. But the reporting on this meeting cancellation served its purpose, as evidenced by you propagating the false information that no strain has been selected for next year's flu vaccine.

Also:

Injected influenza vaccines probably have a small protective effect against influenza and ILI (moderate-certainty evidence), as 71 people would need to be vaccinated to avoid one influenza case, and 29 would need to be vaccinated to avoid one case of ILI. Vaccination may have little or no appreciable effect on hospitalisations (low-certainty evidence) or number of working days lost.​

​

Vaccines to prevent influenza in healthy adults | Cochrane

www.cochrane.org

​

It's interesting that the Cochrane Review found little to no effect on hospitalization or working days lost. This would seem to call into question the claim that flu vaccination makes the flu more mild.

But hey, on the plus side, every 72nd person who gets the vaccine won't get the sniffles.

 

[loveofourlord]

The food additives and excess sugar content in foods (that's already banned in other countries) as well as having a more forward/forceful stance on obesity.

While other political factions have been either outright endorsing (or giving tacit acceptance) to things like "healthy at any size" or the "fat acceptance" movement, he's spoken about the issue with more clarity.

Tossing in words like "life-threatening" without any quantifiers can be misleading when referring to things like measles.

To put it in perspective, prior to the measles vaccine even existing, in the US:
In the United States, measles led to an average of 400 to 500 deaths annually, with around 48,000 hospitalizations

And that was with pre-1960's supportive care, obviously our supportive care mechanisms are much more refined today.

Compare that to the numbers from Obesity.

300,000 deaths per year attributable to obesity.

And with regards to hospitalizations, even pre-vaccine, it doesn't scratch the surface.

Comparison of Hospitalizations: Measles vs. Obesity​

Measles (Pre-Vaccine Era, U.S.)​

• Hospitalizations: ~48,000 per year
• Severe Complications: ~1,000 cases of encephalitis per year

Obesity-Related Conditions (U.S., Current Estimates)​

• Hospitalizations: Over 1 millionannually, primarily due to conditions linked to obesity (e.g., heart disease, stroke, diabetes, hypertension, sleep apnea, and joint disorders).
  • Heart disease hospitalizations: ~4.6 million per year (not all due to obesity but significantly influenced by it).
  • Diabetes-related hospitalizations: ~7.8 million per year (obesity is a major risk factor).

Key Takeaways​

• Obesity-related hospitalizations (over 1 million per year) far exceed measles hospitalizations (~48,000 per year pre-vaccine) in the U.S.
• Unlike measles, obesity contributes to chronic conditions that lead to repeat hospital visits over a lifetime.

RFK Jr. advocating for measles vaccines to be optional (which btw, Norway already does) is not as a big of a threat as obesity. So while something that can cause 400 deaths per year can be labelled "potentially life-threatening", it's not as "life-threatening" as unhealthy diet and obesity.

recently it was found measels resets your immune system so....not exactly non life threatening alomg other things. Yeah....so him making it optional makes him a bigger idiot wich was our point :> Congrats on proving our point.

 

[loveofourlord]

Yes, I agree.

So with all of that noise in the data, how are we accurately tracking safety concerns with vaccines?

Spoiler alert: We're not.



You seem to be mixing data. I would agree that COVID vaccination was likely a net positive for elderly and immunocompromised. But the risk/benefit calculus is quite different for young, healthy people. Young, healthy males in particular were at elevated risk for myocarditis from COVID vaccination, and at virtually no risk from the disease itself.

If there had been nuance in the vaccine recommendations, I don't suspect we'd be having this discussion. But there wasn't. Every living, breathing thing was to get vaccinated. And boosted. And boosted again. And again. And again. And again. With no evidence that additional boosting was providing any real benefit. But we were introducing those young men to potential harms that were unnecessary.

you lying about something doesn't make it true, they are and they do. But keep lying, people dying for your lies is a great way to make people like you.

 

[Larniavc]

No one appears to be obese, they are or they aren't. It's an actual state of being, not a judgment

Woosh

 

[ThatRobGuy]

recently it was found measels resets your immune system so....not exactly non life threatening alomg other things. Yeah....so him making it optional makes him a bigger idiot wich was our point :> Congrats on proving our point.

So would you also say then, by that logic, that the health officials in Norway are idiots? (since what's he's proposed is basically a copy of their legal framework surrounding vaccines).

Or do the fixations and pejoratives just get reserved for people aligned with conservative politics in the US?

Norway isn't unique in that region:

Sweden​

• Vaccination is entirely voluntary, and there are no legal mandates.
• The government strongly encourages vaccines through public health campaigns.
• In 2017, there was a proposal to introduce mandatory vaccination, but it was rejected due to concerns about bodily autonomy and trust in the healthcare system.

Denmark​

• No compulsory vaccination laws exist.
• Vaccination is recommended and free under the national health system.
• During serious outbreaks, authorities may strongly urge vaccination, but it remains a personal choice.

Finland​

• Vaccination is voluntary, though highly recommended under the national immunization program.
• Finland has some of the highest vaccine acceptance rates in Europe, despite no legal enforcement.
• Only in extreme cases (such as healthcare workers during outbreaks) can temporary vaccination requirements be suggested.

Iceland​

• Vaccinations are not mandatory, but widely accepted.
• The country follows an opt-in system, where parents must actively choose to vaccinate their children.
• Public trust in vaccines is high, leading to strong vaccination rates without legal enforcement.

Overall Trend in Scandinavia​

All Scandinavian countries follow a trust-based, voluntary model for vaccinations. They rely on public education, free access to vaccines, and strong healthcare infrastructure rather than legal mandates to achieve high immunization rates.

 

[durangodawood]

So would you also say then, by that logic, that the health officials in Norway are idiots? (since what's he's proposed is basically a copy of their legal framework surrounding vaccines).

That model clearly does work in certain countries where the citizens aren't so credulous and, basically, superstitious.

Could it work in reality disconnected USA? I have doubts.

 

[loveofourlord]

So would you also say then, by that logic, that the health officials in Norway are idiots? (since what's he's proposed is basically a copy of their legal framework surrounding vaccines).

Or do the fixations and pejoratives just get reserved for people aligned with conservative politics in the US?

Norway isn't unique in that region:

Sweden​

• Vaccination is entirely voluntary, and there are no legal mandates.
• The government strongly encourages vaccines through public health campaigns.
• In 2017, there was a proposal to introduce mandatory vaccination, but it was rejected due to concerns about bodily autonomy and trust in the healthcare system.

Denmark​

• No compulsory vaccination laws exist.
• Vaccination is recommended and free under the national health system.
• During serious outbreaks, authorities may strongly urge vaccination, but it remains a personal choice.

Finland​

• Vaccination is voluntary, though highly recommended under the national immunization program.
• Finland has some of the highest vaccine acceptance rates in Europe, despite no legal enforcement.
• Only in extreme cases (such as healthcare workers during outbreaks) can temporary vaccination requirements be suggested.

Iceland​

• Vaccinations are not mandatory, but widely accepted.
• The country follows an opt-in system, where parents must actively choose to vaccinate their children.
• Public trust in vaccines is high, leading to strong vaccination rates without legal enforcement.

Overall Trend in Scandinavia​

All Scandinavian countries follow a trust-based, voluntary model for vaccinations. They rely on public education, free access to vaccines, and strong healthcare infrastructure rather than legal mandates to achieve high immunization rates.

I would say yes they are idiots and dangerously so, were talking about RFK here who has shown and proven that being in charge of health doesn't make them intelligent. it's a bit late to wait for an outbreak to then do something, again measels isn't a minor small disease, it's a dangerous one, even when it doesn't kill it leaves lasting harm for many kids, especially brain damage. And as pointed out there is a low rate of non acceptance, but it's still a bad idea. There is no reason NOT to vaccinate for measels, but yeah, proving other countries are stupid doesn't prove your point.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That model clearly does work in certain countries where the citizens aren't so credulous and, basically, superstitious.

Could it work in reality disconnected USA? I have doubts.

Or does the model work specifically because it's not mandatory.

Things that are presented as optional instead of "you have to do this or else!" tends to give off more of a "up & up" vibe.


"Hey, there's stuff to drink in the fridge, it's really good, feel free to grab some if you'd like"
vs.
"I have this cup of stuff here, you have to drink it, and I'm going to stand here and watch to make sure you do"

...it going to give off two very different vibes.


There is a reason why the covid vaccines got such a different response (and level of hesitancy from the public) compared to flu vaccines, TDAPs, etc...

People, who for years answered "yes" whenever their doctor said at their check-up "Hey, it looks like you're due for your XYZ vaccine, would you like to take care of that now while you're already here in the office?", all of the sudden became newly minted "vaccine skeptics" after the way the covid vaccine rollout was handled.

One can discount the fact that the "high pressure/stick instead of the carrot" approach didn't do public vaccine attitudes any favors.

 

[stevil]

No, but they're going to be less likely to ban the unhealthy foods

Do you want USA to be a nanny state, where government is somewhat like your Mum and Dad, putting restrictions on you, stopping you from swearing, stopping you from doing "immoral" things, making sure you eat healthy, have all your vegetables or you are not going to get dessert, making sure you brush your teeth and get to bed nice and early?

Is that what you expect from government?
Prohibition, perhaps ban lollies, fizzy drinks, packets of chips, chocolate, just make sure people eat unprocessed foods, maybe make the country go paleo.

 

[stevil]

I did not say that. I said there were harms associated from wearing masks. Why are you lying about what I said? Is it because it's easier for you to refute nonsense than my actual points?

In the context of a deadly global pandemic, the tradeoffs mostly to be considered are:

• Are the measures to combat the spread of the disease going to cause more deaths than the disease?
• IS killing the economy worth saving the lives?

Things that otherwise would be important are put aside temporarily:

• What about people's freedom to run business and gather together?
• What about how uncool it looks to wear a mask?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Or does the model work specifically because it's not mandatory.

Things that are presented as optional instead of "you have to do this or else!" tends to give off more of a "up & up" vibe.


"Hey, there's stuff to drink in the fridge, it's really good, feel free to grab some if you'd like"
vs.
"I have this cup of stuff here, you have to drink it, and I'm going to stand here and watch to make sure you do"

...it going to give off two very different vibes.

(mostly just a break to ensure the full bit is visible in the quote box)

There is a reason why the covid vaccines got such a different response (and level of hesitancy from the public) compared to flu vaccines, TDAPs, etc...

(I've never had a flu vaccine and don't know what a TDAP is.)

People, who for years answered "yes" whenever their doctor said at their check-up "Hey, it looks like you're due for your XYZ vaccine, would you like to take care of that now while you're already here in the office?", all of the sudden became newly minted "vaccine skeptics" after the way the covid vaccine rollout was handled.

You mean how there was TV coverage of the first shipment leaving the manufacturing facility on the way to an express cargo plane around Christmas (2020), or the part where the most vulnerable to the disease were given priority access (elderly, immune compromised, etc.), then everyone over 50, then everyone, all at free immunization sites (got my doses in April)? That rollout? Seriously. [I'd like more of that kind of medical response please.]

One can discount the fact that the "high pressure/stick instead of the carrot" approach didn't do public vaccine attitudes any favors.

 

[stevil]

One can discount the fact that the "high pressure/stick instead of the carrot" approach didn't do public vaccine attitudes any favors.

Except the fact that people on the political left spectrum, those that don't watch and don't believe right wing media commentators, didn't have this hesitancy. The hesitancy was limited to consumers of right wing media.

 

[BPPLEE]

Except the fact that people on the political left spectrum, those that don't watch and don't believe right wing media commentators, didn't have this hesitancy. The hesitancy was limited to consumers of right wing media.

You know the political affiliation and motivation of everyone who didn't take the COVID vaccine?

 

[stevil]

You know the political affiliation and motivation of everyone who didn't take the COVID vaccine?

It's significantly slanted towards those on the USA right wing, significantly towards those that watch and believe right wing political commentators.

 

[stevil]

So would you also say then, by that logic, that the health officials in Norway are idiots? (since what's he's proposed is basically a copy of their legal framework surrounding vaccines).

Or do the fixations and pejoratives just get reserved for people aligned with conservative politics in the US?

Norway isn't unique in that region:

Sweden​

• Vaccination is entirely voluntary, and there are no legal mandates.
• The government strongly encourages vaccines through public health campaigns.
• In 2017, there was a proposal to introduce mandatory vaccination, but it was rejected due to concerns about bodily autonomy and trust in the healthcare system.

Denmark​

• No compulsory vaccination laws exist.
• Vaccination is recommended and free under the national health system.
• During serious outbreaks, authorities may strongly urge vaccination, but it remains a personal choice.

Finland​

• Vaccination is voluntary, though highly recommended under the national immunization program.
• Finland has some of the highest vaccine acceptance rates in Europe, despite no legal enforcement.
• Only in extreme cases (such as healthcare workers during outbreaks) can temporary vaccination requirements be suggested.

Iceland​

• Vaccinations are not mandatory, but widely accepted.
• The country follows an opt-in system, where parents must actively choose to vaccinate their children.
• Public trust in vaccines is high, leading to strong vaccination rates without legal enforcement.

Overall Trend in Scandinavia​

All Scandinavian countries follow a trust-based, voluntary model for vaccinations. They rely on public education, free access to vaccines, and strong healthcare infrastructure rather than legal mandates to achieve high immunization rates.

Were vaccines mandatory in any country?

 

[BPPLEE]

It's significantly slanted towards those on the USA right wing, significantly towards those that watch and believe right wing political commentators.

Okay, are we just supposed to take your word for this?

 

[probinson]

you lying about something doesn't make it true, they are and they do. But keep lying, people dying for your lies is a great way to make people like you.

I genuinely have no idea what you think I'm "lying" about. You've already admitted that VAERS is pretty useless and no one takes it seriously. So how exactly do you think they are tracking adverse events from vaccination?

 

[probinson]

again measels isn't a minor small disease

Actually, in most cases, it is.

it's a dangerous one, even when it doesn't kill it leaves lasting harm for many kids, especially brain damage.

I'm not sure if you've ever talked to anyone from before measles vaccination was available. My elderly parents and in-laws all had measles. All their friends had measles. Basically, everyone had measles. Heck, the Brady Bunch did an episode on it where they said the kids were up in bed with smiles on their faces, because it meant no school for a week. The audience laughed.

Clearly, societal positions have changed drastically since then.

And as pointed out there is a low rate of non acceptance, but it's still a bad idea.

Why? If the measles vaccine is effective, why is it a bad idea to let people make their own decision?

I and my wife are vaccinated against measles and so are my children. But I don't really care if anyone else is. I am comfortable that the vaccine we have taken is effective and provides protection. So it doesn't much matter to me if other people make a different choice.