Rfk drops ball

[loveofourlord]

Hey, if other people can have their own shallow, myopic, single-metric redline issues with regards to health (and ignore every other part), then why can't I?

After all, if a person lets themselves get that obese...how can I trust them to care about the health of myself and others if they don't even care about their own?


If a person is of the mindset of "I'll eat until I balloon up and then just rely on pharmaceutical products to mitigate and offset the effects", their personal philosophies on such matters can bleed over into their policy decisions, correct? (that is the concern about RFK Jr, right? That his personal positions will bleed over into his policy decision?)

I don't see why that rationale should be applied to one counterproductive health stance, but not to others.

given him insane stance on avian flu, but a common talking point on anti vax, it's safe to say it's his beliefs are bleeding into policy.

And what you think about food, is different then vacicines. You being fat, won't kill people like being unvaxed wil.

 

[probinson]

given him insane stance on avian flu

Can you expound? What do you find "insane" about RFK Jr.'s "stance on avian flu"?

 

[loveofourlord]

I've already made my judgements about him.

He's very wrong about a thing (measles vaccine hesitancy) that could get dozens of people killed.

But he's right about the things that are killing thousands of people per week (that most other health officials have neglected to talk about).

wich things has he been talking about that others have neglected? Because I've seen him spout nonsense things that aren't harmful, and such. If they are real they aren't neglected. But things like vaccines, cellphones. But I have seen him unconcerned about serious life thretenning things like measels, and avian flu.

 

[loveofourlord]

Can you expound? What do you find "insane" about RFK Jr.'s "stance on avian flu"?

you think, "Just let the chickens die, and hope some are immune." is insane over a disease that has a higher known mortality rate then covid or the regular flu, in the HOPES that some chickens will maybe be immune to that strain, and we don't get a dangerous cross over event.

 

[stevil]

Yes. All the more reason to be cautious in your proclamations.

My idea of being cautious during a pandemic of a highly infectious disease is to err on the side of caution. If you don't know whether masks or social distancing works or not, then wear masks and social distance.

Instead of making confident statements that were later proven to be demonstrably false, they should have said what they knew. But the goal wasn't honesty. The goal was vaccine uptake. So what better way to drive vaccine uptake than to lie to people by telling them they become a "dead end" to the virus.

I found Fauci to be mostly honest. I have no idea why MAGA have decided to target him.

The fact is, the absolute risk reduction (ARR) in COVID vaccination is less than 1%.

The difference is massive.
an unvacinated USA would have seen 3 million deaths. A vaccinated USA would have seen 100,000 deaths.

Actually, I was being generous at 0.3%. The actual numbers were much lower.

Stupidity!

I'm sure you also know that COVID deaths were overcounted.

I'm absolutely sure that COVID deaths have been undercounted.

*Sigh*. Dr. Fauci admitted that there were no studies to support social distancing and that the recommendation just kind of appeared.

All it takes is a brain capable of thinking.

Communicable diseases spread from one person to another. Oh my!!!

It seems you've learned nothing. As long as people keep trying to pretend like the COVID vaccine is in any way analogous to proven childhood vaccines, vaccine uptake will continue to decline.

I believe the vaccine works and this hasn't resulted in me declining to take the vaccine.
This is just stupid.

What causes people not to take the vaccine is anti-vaxxers, and right wing operatives trying to tell the masses that they don't work and that they are dangerous, and then pundits like yourself spreading this nonsense all across the internet.

This causes people to die in masses.
USA has likely seen 800, 000 people die more than what would have if people in USA didn't resist vaccinations, masks and social distancing. Well done!

 

[loveofourlord]

That's the way it should be. But then all of those potential adverse events are brushed off into the "rare" category, which is all well and good until you experience one of the "rare" adverse events. Then you're on your own.



Yes. That's the way it should be. We used to call that "informed consent".



I mostly agree with that. Trying to equate the importance of COVID vaccines with the importance of MMR was remarkably foolish. At best, the COVID vaccines provide minimal, transient benefit to most people. The exception might be those that were very elderly and/or immunocompromised people. But there was never any justification for mandating it on healthy college-age students, and that mandate has caused immense and justifiable damage to trust in public health authorities.



Probably not nearly as many as you think.

of course they are A) they are blown out of proportion like the vaccine reporting system, and B) if one person gets hurt, but doesn't even die from 10k saved, does it suck for them,but thats life. The chance of dying from a vaccine are lower then surgery and no ones saying, "We shouldn't do open heart surgery becaues people die, or should be questioning their efficacy."

 

[probinson]

you think, "Just let the chickens die, and hope some are immune." is insane over a disease that has a higher known mortality rate then covid or the regular flu, in the HOPES that some chickens will maybe be immune to that strain, and we don't get a dangerous cross over event.

If you would like a perspective on Avian Flu that is quite different than the mainstream, I would point you to the Substack of Carl Henneghan and Tom Jefferson. Dr. Jefferson is the lead author of the Cochrane Review on masking, and Dr. Henneghan is the former Editor-in-Chief of BMJ Evidence-Based Medicine magazine. They've written a number of articles about Avian Flu that you might find enlightening.

Trust the Evidence | Carl Heneghan | Substack

Informing health decisions by separating evidence from opinion. Click to read Trust the Evidence, a Substack publication with tens of thousands of subscribers.

trusttheevidence.substack.com

 

[stevil]

Which will likely be worser next year, seeings how they nixed the meeting to try to determine which of the variants the 2025-2026 flu season vaccines ought to focus on.

Good work RFK Jr, don't want those dangerous vaccinations getting to the people.

 

[loveofourlord]

If you would like a perspective on Avian Flu that is quite different than the mainstream, I would point you to the Substack of Carl Henneghan and Tom Jefferson. Dr. Jefferson is the lead author of the Cochrane Review on masking, and Dr. Henneghan is the former Editor-in-Chief of BMJ Evidence-Based Medicine magazine. They've written a number of articles about Avian Flu that you might find enlightening.

Trust the Evidence | Carl Heneghan | Substack

Informing health decisions by separating evidence from opinion. Click to read Trust the Evidence, a Substack publication with tens of thousands of subscribers.

trusttheevidence.substack.com

website is pay not going to pay for it, but do you think letting a dangerous communicable disease that has a dangerous death rate just mute as much as it wants is a safe thing? Letting the chickens die suffering, you don't play games, or go with natural immunity on things that will kill people.

 

[probinson]

My idea of being cautious during a pandemic of a highly infectious disease is to err on the side of caution. If you don't know whether masks or social distancing works or not, then wear masks and social distance.

You do realize there were harms associated with masking and social distancing, right? I mean, don't you think it's important to understand if what you're doing is actually beneficial (spoiler alert: it wasn't).

I found Fauci to be mostly honest.

Fauci lied repeatedly throughout COVID. He lied about the origins of the virus that he almost certainly funded in defiance of the pause on gain-of-function research. He lied about vaccine efficacy. He lied about masks. He lied and lied and lied some more.

The difference is massive.
an unvacinated USA would have seen 3 million deaths. A vaccinated USA would have seen 100,000 deaths.

You're literally just making up numbers.

Stupidity!

Compelling argument.

You realize I posted evidence for mortality rates from a study of 29 countries. Do you dispute these numbers? If so, why? Here they are again.

For 29 countries (24 high-income, 5 others), publicly available age-stratified COVID-19 death data and age-stratified seroprevalence information were available and were included in the primary analysis. The IFRs had a median of 0.035% (interquartile range (IQR) 0.013 - 0.056%) for the 0-59 years old population, and 0.095% (IQR 0.036 - 0.125%,) for the 0-69 years old. The median IFR was 0.0003% at 0-19 years, 0.003% at 20-29 years, 0.011% at 30-39 years, 0.035% at 40-49 years, 0.129% at 50-59 years, and 0.501% at 60-69 years.​

Age-stratified infection fatality rate of COVID-19 in the non-elderly informed from pre-vaccination national seroprevalence studies ​

I'm absolutely sure that COVID deaths have been undercounted.

Sure you are.

Meanwhile back here in reality, there were plenty of people who died "with" COVID that were counted as COVID deaths. In some of the most egregious examples, early in the pandemic people that died in car accidents that were found to have been infected with COVID were classified as COVID deaths.

All it takes is a brain capable of thinking.

Communicable diseases spread from one person to another. Oh my!!!

Do you have any idea how far aerosols can travel? Do you really think that aerosols stay within a 6 foot radius of you when you exhale?

I believe the vaccine works and this hasn't resulted in me declining to take the vaccine.

I'm sure you do.

This is just stupid.

Is derision the only way you know how to respond to things you can't refute?

What causes people not to take the vaccine is anti-vaxxers, and right wing operatives trying to tell the masses that they don't work and that they are dangerous, and then pundits like yourself spreading this nonsense all across the internet.

Except this isn't nonsense. And I've already pointed out that anti-vaxxers have always existed, but it wasn't until 2021 that childhood vaccine uptake began to meaningfully decrease.

This causes people to die in masses.

Does it?

USA has likely seen 800, 000 people die more than what would have if people in USA didn't resist vaccinations, masks and social distancing. Well done!

See, now this is blathering nonsense. Just a few posts ago, you said "2 million". You're just making up numbers up as we go along. It's not very compelling.

 

[probinson]

website is pay not going to pay for it

Ah. The articles are free when they are posted and I get them emailed daily. I forgot that they paywall things after a period of time.

but do you think letting a dangerous communicable disease that has a dangerous death rate just mute as much as it wants is a safe thing?

I think that's a mischaracterization of what is happening.

 

[probinson]

of course they are A) they are blown out of proportion like the vaccine reporting system,

Thank you for illustrating one of my earlier points. If you experience an adverse event from a vaccine, you can report it to VAERS. But you're wasting your time, because as you just showed us, no one trusts the vaccine reporting system. We're told that its data is inaccurate. Then why do we tell people to report their adverse events to a system that most people simply ignore?

It's to create the illusion of safety monitoring. We have VAERS! We are monitoring safety signals! I'd encourage you to read the horror stories from the vaccine-injured that have reported to VAERS. Read how it takes over a year for someone to contact them, and then how in almost every instance, they'll tell you your injury didn't result from the vaccine, leaving you with the adverse event and the financial hit. The "safety monitoring" of vaccines in the US is a joke.

and B) if one person gets hurt, but doesn't even die from 10k saved, does it suck for them,but thats life.

What a weird position. If a 20-year old healthy male gets COVID, the infection fatality rate (IFR) is around 0.003% (see study above). If they get vaccinated and suffer an adverse event, they have introduced themselves to a higher risk than if they had just gotten COVID. Worse, they could have lifelong repercussions from that vaccine. This is why informed consent is so important. There are no guarantees for any of us, but making sure everyone is properly informed on the risks and benefits is key to informed consent.

The chance of dying from a vaccine are lower then surgery

Source?

Also, this is an odd comparison. The odds of dying from "surgery" vary wildly dependent upon a myriad of factors.

 

[stevil]

You do realize there were harms associated with masking and social distancing, right? I mean, don't you think it's important to understand if what you're doing is actually beneficial (spoiler alert: it wasn't).

LOL, people have been dying in mass of wearing masks and social distancing.

USA has have over 1 million die from Covid, how many died from wearing the scary masks?

Fauci lied repeatedly throughout COVID. He lied about the origins of the virus that he almost certainly funded in defiance of the pause on gain-of-function research.

Oh boy, you believe that propaganda.

You're literally just making up numbers.

Well of course, we are talking about hypotheticals here.

You realize I posted evidence for mortality rates from a study of 29 countries. Do you dispute these numbers? If so, why? Here they are again.

Dude, you had over a million deaths in USA, and you are saying 0.3% of unvacinated die of Covid. Did you learn maths at school?

Do you have any idea how far aerosols can travel? Do you really think that aerosols stay within a 6 foot radius of you when you exhale?

Again, Oh boy. Where do you get your information from?

Except this isn't nonsense. And I've already pointed out that anti-vaxxers have always existed, but it wasn't until 2021 that childhood vaccine uptake began to meaningfully decrease.

The right wing media personalities and the MAGA movement made anti Vax, anti science and anti covid protections a popular thing during this time. Before this time it was very much fringe crazies that believed this, now most on the USA right believe it cause they believe Tucker, Hannity, Ingram, Trump, etc.

See, now this is blathering nonsense. Just a few posts ago, you said "2 million". You're just making up numbers up as we go along. It's not very compelling.

You are not thinking, you are just arguing. It's a little more complicated and requires at least some thought.

If the entire population of USA never got vaccinated and just ignored the pandemic then you would have likely actually had about 2-3 million dead (just under 1% of the population),
But since most people did get vaccinated and most people did wear masks and social distance, you actually got a much lower number of deaths.
But because a large continginent of the USA right wing didn't do anything to fight the pandemic, you got much more deaths than you otherwise would have. I reckon if you guys all tried to fight off the pandemic you would have had somewhere from 300,000 to 500,000 deaths rather than over 1 million. Again Well done of fighting for your "what about my freedoms?" principles rather than trying to save lives.

 

[loveofourlord]

Thank you for illustrating one of my earlier points. If you experience an adverse event from a vaccine, you can report it to VAERS. But you're wasting your time, because as you just showed us, no one trusts the vaccine reporting system. We're told that its data is inaccurate. Then why do we tell people to report their adverse events to a system that most people simply ignore?

It's to create the illusion of safety monitoring. We have VAERS! We are monitoring safety signals! I'd encourage you to read the horror stories from the vaccine-injured that have reported to VAERS. Read how it takes over a year for someone to contact them, and then how in almost every instance, they'll tell you your injury didn't result from the vaccine, leaving you with the adverse event and the financial hit. The "safety monitoring" of vaccines in the US is a joke.



What a weird position. If a 20-year old healthy male gets COVID, the infection fatality rate (IFR) is around 0.003% (see study above). If they get vaccinated and suffer an adverse event, they have introduced themselves to a higher risk than if they had just gotten COVID. Worse, they could have lifelong repercussions from that vaccine. This is why informed consent is so important. There are no guarantees for any of us, but making sure everyone is properly informed on the risks and benefits is key to informed consent.



Source?

Also, this is an odd comparison. The odds of dying from "surgery" vary wildly dependent upon a myriad of factors.

people use it, but it's not reliable to prove, it's a step to find, problem with vaers is A) it's self reporting not empyrical data and B) it can be as benign as I had a headache, to as unrelated as, "My foot fell off." it's there to find actual signals, if there is a sudden rise in incidents that can be related to the vaccine they can check it, but it's not evidence itself.

On chance, can't find mmr rates, but it's low and only immune ompromised, but 1-5% death rate depending on the severity of the surgery. And same with different vaccines, plus the amount of people that die from the vaccine are way less then those that die from covid.

Ah. The articles are free when they are posted and I get them emailed daily. I forgot that they paywall things after a period of time.



I think that's a mischaracterization of what is happening.

his literal words were, and I quote, "“Should you cull those flocks?” he said. “You should let the disease go through them and identify the birds that survive, which are the birds that probably have a genetic inclination for immunity and those are the birds who should breed.”" thats a recipe for disaster, it won't help prevent avian flu from killing chickens and just gives it a chance to kill humans. And no worries about the paywall thing :> I did try to find it,

 

[Pommer]

What was nixed was the advisory committee meeting, which is basically where a bunch of "advisors" heavily funded by pharmaceutical companies get together and guess which strain of the flu might circulate next year.

You’re implying that Big Pharma is active in trying to have the best product available in the future?
Yes, that would be the point, well spotted!

 

[Larniavc]

It's about representation. Would you buy a diet plan from an obese person?

I'm sad that you think it's fine to judge people on appearances.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

given him insane stance on avian flu, but a common talking point on anti vax, it's safe to say it's his beliefs are bleeding into policy.

And what you think about food, is different then vacicines. You being fat, won't kill people like being unvaxed wil.

Sure it can, obesity can (and does) impact how well vaccines work.

Research has shown that obesity can impair the immune system, leading to a weaker response to vaccinations. This is due to several factors:

1. Chronic Inflammation – Obesity is associated with chronic low-grade inflammation, which can disrupt normal immune function and reduce the body's ability to mount a strong response to vaccines.
2. Altered Immune Cell Function – Excess fat can affect the function of immune cells such as T cells and B cells, which are crucial for generating long-lasting immunity after vaccination.
3. Reduced Antibody Production – Studies have found that obese individuals may produce lower levels of antibodies in response to vaccines compared to people with a healthy weight.
4. Faster Waning Immunity – Even when vaccines initially trigger a response, immunity in obese individuals tends to decline more rapidly, increasing their risk of infection over time.

This effect has been observed in vaccines for influenza, hepatitis B, and COVID-19, among others.



And obesity was a prevailing comorbidity during covid, increasing the likelihood of needing hospitalization and emergency room visits. So a person being obese is by no means an "externality-free" condition.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

wich things has he been talking about that others have neglected? Because I've seen him spout nonsense things that aren't harmful, and such. If they are real they aren't neglected. But things like vaccines, cellphones. But I have seen him unconcerned about serious life thretenning things like measels, and avian flu.

The food additives and excess sugar content in foods (that's already banned in other countries) as well as having a more forward/forceful stance on obesity.

While other political factions have been either outright endorsing (or giving tacit acceptance) to things like "healthy at any size" or the "fat acceptance" movement, he's spoken about the issue with more clarity.

Tossing in words like "life-threatening" without any quantifiers can be misleading when referring to things like measles.

To put it in perspective, prior to the measles vaccine even existing, in the US:
In the United States, measles led to an average of 400 to 500 deaths annually, with around 48,000 hospitalizations

And that was with pre-1960's supportive care, obviously our supportive care mechanisms are much more refined today.

Compare that to the numbers from Obesity.

300,000 deaths per year attributable to obesity.

And with regards to hospitalizations, even pre-vaccine, it doesn't scratch the surface.

Comparison of Hospitalizations: Measles vs. Obesity​

Measles (Pre-Vaccine Era, U.S.)​

• Hospitalizations: ~48,000 per year
• Severe Complications: ~1,000 cases of encephalitis per year

Obesity-Related Conditions (U.S., Current Estimates)​

• Hospitalizations: Over 1 million annually, primarily due to conditions linked to obesity (e.g., heart disease, stroke, diabetes, hypertension, sleep apnea, and joint disorders).
  • Heart disease hospitalizations: ~4.6 million per year (not all due to obesity but significantly influenced by it).
  • Diabetes-related hospitalizations: ~7.8 million per year (obesity is a major risk factor).

Key Takeaways​

• Obesity-related hospitalizations (over 1 million per year) far exceed measles hospitalizations (~48,000 per year pre-vaccine) in the U.S.
• Unlike measles, obesity contributes to chronic conditions that lead to repeat hospital visits over a lifetime.

RFK Jr. advocating for measles vaccines to be optional (which btw, Norway already does) is not as a big of a threat as obesity. So while something that can cause 400 deaths per year can be labelled "potentially life-threatening", it's not as "life-threatening" as unhealthy diet and obesity.

 

[probinson]

LOL, people have been dying in mass of wearing masks and social distancing.

I did not say that. I said there were harms associated from wearing masks. Why are you lying about what I said? Is it because it's easier for you to refute nonsense than my actual points?

USA has have over 1 million die from Covid, how many died from wearing the scary masks?

How many children fell behind because their speech and language development was hindered due to excessive mask use?

How many businesses were permanently shuttered because of ineffective lockdowns?

How much did suicide rates increase due to the isolation and loneliness of ineffective lockdowns?

How many people fell into poverty due to COVID mitigation measures?

How many more people were affected by food insecurity due to COVID mitigation measures?

There were very real harms associated with the foolish and ineffective mitigation measures that were mandated on the world.

Oh boy, you believe that propaganda.

Maybe one day, you'll actually examine the evidence about the origins of the virus. Start here when you do.

Since scientists began playing around with dangerous pathogens in laboratories, the world has experienced four or five pandemics, depending on how you count. One of them, the 1977 Russian flu, was almost certainly sparked by a research mishap. Some Western scientists quickly suspected the odd virus had resided in a lab freezer for a couple of decades, but they kept mostly quiet for fear of ruffling feathers.​

​

Yet in 2020, when people started speculating that a laboratory accident might have been the spark that started the COVID-19 pandemic, they were treated like kooks and cranks. Many public health officials and prominent scientists dismissed the idea as a conspiracy theory, insisting that the virus had emerged from animals in a seafood market in Wuhan, China. And when a nonprofit called EcoHealth Alliance lost a grant because it was planning to conduct risky research into bat viruses with the Wuhan Institute of Virology — research that, if conducted with lax safety standards, could have resulted in a dangerous pathogen leaking out into the world — no fewer than 77 Nobel laureates and 31 scientific societies lined up to defend the organization.​

​

So the Wuhan research was totally safe, and the pandemic was definitely caused by natural transmission — it certainly seemed like consensus.​

​

We have since learned, however, that to promote the appearance of consensus, some officials and scientists hid or understated crucial facts, misled at least one reporter, orchestrated campaigns of supposedly independent voices and even compared notes about how to hide their communications in order to keep the public from hearing the whole story. And as for that Wuhan laboratory’s research, the details that have since emerged show that safety precautions might have been terrifyingly lax.​

​

Zeynep Tufekci: We were badly misled about the event that changed our lives

Only an honest conversation will lead us forward. Like any field with the potential to inflict harm on a global scale, research with dangerous, potentially supertransmissible pathogens cannot be le…

www.twincities.com

​

​

That article, published in the NYT last week, has evidence and receipts. If you care at all about the truth, you should educate yourself on how we were lied to about the origins of COVID.

Well of course, we are talking about hypotheticals here.

Yes, and you're pulling numbers out of thin air. I guess any argument is easier to win when you can fabricate your data on a whim.

Dude, you had over a million deaths in USA, and you are saying 0.3% of unvacinated die of Covid. Did you learn maths at school?

Dude, here's a study showing the pre-vaccination IFR for COVID. Do you dispute this study? Why do you think it's not true?

For 29 countries (24 high-income, 5 others), publicly available age-stratified COVID-19 death data and age-stratified seroprevalence information were available and were included in the primary analysis. The IFRs had a median of 0.035% (interquartile range (IQR) 0.013 - 0.056%) for the 0-59 years old population, and 0.095% (IQR 0.036 - 0.125%,) for the 0-69 years old. The median IFR was 0.0003% at 0-19 years, 0.003% at 20-29 years, 0.011% at 30-39 years, 0.035% at 40-49 years, 0.129% at 50-59 years, and 0.501% at 60-69 years.​

​

Age-stratified infection fatality rate of COVID-19 in the non-elderly informed from pre-vaccination national seroprevalence studies ​

Again, Oh boy. Where do you get your information from?

Are you suggesting that aerosols don't travel through the air and always stay within six feet of you? I mean, it's not exactly new information. Just walk outside in the cold and watch your breath. Do you see all of those little aerosols? Do you think they just hover six feet around you? Where do they go if you're inside?

Dr. Fauci admitted under oath that the six-foot rule had no science to support it, and that it sort of just appeared. I have no idea why you would continue to defend such an evidence-poor mandate.

The right wing media personalities and the MAGA movement made anti Vax, anti science and anti covid protections a popular thing during this time.

I know you believe that.

You know what else happened? Public health experts and governments lied and oversold the efficacy of the COVID vaccines. Then they tried to mandate them and took people's livelihoods away if they refused to comply. They required vaccination cards in big cities to simply participate in polite society. Their rules were harsh, arbitrary, and nonsensical.

Before this time it was very much fringe crazies that believed this, now most on the USA right believe it cause they believe Tucker, Hannity, Ingram, Trump, etc.

Yes, I know your disdain for right wing media and your penchant to blame it for all the evils in the world. I suppose that makes it easier to dismiss the role that public health played in lying to and misleading the public.

You are not thinking, you are just arguing. It's a little more complicated and requires at least some thought.

Of the two of us, I'm the only one that's posted any evidence for any critical thought. You're just saying things. I've posted links to studies, evidence for my claims. You are the one that is just arguing.

If the entire population of USA never got vaccinated and just ignored the pandemic then you would have likely actually had about 2-3 million dead (just under 1% of the population),

That's extremely unlikely. The "maths" are rather improbable given what we know. If you read the article I posted earlier in the thread, you'll understand just how ridiculous that hypothesis is.

But since most people did get vaccinated and most people did wear masks and social distance, you actually got a much lower number of deaths.

We've already determined that masking and social distancing is ineffective, so I don't know why you keep pretending otherwise.

But because a large continginent of the USA right wing didn't do anything to fight the pandemic,

Oh boy, you believe that propaganda?

you got much more deaths than you otherwise would have. I reckon if you guys all tried to fight off the pandemic you would have had somewhere from 300,000 to 500,000 deaths rather than over 1 million.

You "reckon"? Is that like a "hunch"? Doesn't sound like it involved much critical thinking, nor is it very scientific.

Again Well done of fighting for your "what about my freedoms?" principles rather than trying to save lives.

Do you realize that in all of these discussions, you've focused only on COVID deaths? Are you aware that people die from other causes every day? Did you know that the mitigation measures that were implemented accelerated deaths from other causes? Did you know that people were literally dying from loneliness in isolation due to COVID measures? Do you care at al about those lives, or is it only people who died from COVID that you are concerned with?

 

[BPPLEE]

I'm sad that you think it's fine to judge people on appearances.

No one appears to be obese, they are or they aren't. It's an actual state of being, not a judgment