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Armenian Church about Body of Christ: Severus, julianism or incorruption?

Tigran1245

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There is information in the English-language Internet that the Armenian Apostolic Church accepted the heresy of Julian of Halicarnassus, but then repented and accepted the teaching of Severus at the Council of Manazkert in 726. For instance, Fr. VC Samuel in his book about Chalcedon writes that the Armenian Church split from the Oriental Church and condemned St. Severus for a couple of centuries.

All this is a lie from beginning to end. As a member of the Armenian Apostolic Church, it is very important to me that people speak correctly about my Church. Therefore, in this publication I will try to correctly present the history and teaching of the Armenian Church.

The teaching of the Armenian Church differs from the teaching of both Severus and Julian. Severus insisted that the Flesh of Christ is corruptible, like that of all people. For him, the Flesh of Christ was inglorious and imperfect from the Virgin until the Resurrection, and only after the Resurrection was it glorified and became incorruptible. He recognized that Christ is sinless and has no sinful passions, but in all other respects, according to Severus, Christ was like an ordinary man before the Resurrection. This position clearly contradicted the Holy Scripture. This is evidenced by the Apostle Paul: "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever" (Heb. 13:8). If, as Severus insists, the Flesh of the Lord was corruptible before the Resurrection, then it means that the apostles in the upper room did not taste the Sin-Atoning and Life-Giving Flesh, but imperfect, inglorious and corruptible Flesh. In Severus’ anthropological defense, one notices an extreme desire to bring the God-man closer to “ordinary people,” which is how he understood our consubstantiality with Christ.

Therefore, Severus was anathematized by the Armenian Church. The Dvin Council of the Armenian Apostolic Church in 607 decreed:

"In the past, the Holy Fathers and Orthodox Vardpets, with terrible anathemas, rejected and eliminated all heretics: and Savvelius, and Arius, and Eunomius, and those like them, and Paul of Samosata, and Theodore, and Diodorus, and the unremembered Nestorius and Theodoret, and Eutychius, and Severus, and Andrew, and those associated with them, and Eusebius Bishop of Nicomedia, and those associated with them, and the lawless Council of Chalcedon and the vile Tomos of Leo."

And this anathema has not been lifted or cancelled anywhere.

The teaching of corruption was categorically rejected by the holy fathers of the Armenian Church. According to the teaching of the Armenian Apostolic Church, the Flesh of Christ is suffering and mortal, but not corruptible. The Flesh of the Lord is incorruptible until the Resurrection: "Whoever eats My Flesh and drinks My Blood has eternal life" (John 6:54). The Word of God took on not the original nature of Adam, but our corruptible nature - corruptible flesh, sinful soul and spirit, and, having united them with Himself, separated sin from the soul and spirit, and corruption from the flesh. And Christ in the incarnation (not after ressurection) became as incorruptible as Adam before the fall. Saint Grigory of Tatev writes:

"He did not take the first nature of Adam, but took our corruptible one from the family of Adam and, uniting it with Himself, transferred it to the first innocent and incorruptible nature of Adam."

As much as the fathers of the Armenian Church shunned Severus' teaching about "corruption", so they were wary of docetism (phantasm, illusion) hidden in Julian's teaching about "incorruption". And the dispute of the Armenian Fathers was not with Julian himself, but with the extreme followers of his teaching. In any case, Julian's writings do not contain that crude Docetism, which his opponents often talk about, who accused him of turning the sacrament of Redemption into a kind of "fantasy and dream vision" with his teaching about the natural "corruption" of the Savior's flesh. Julian's system about the "incorruption" of the Flesh of Christ is connected not with his understanding of God-human unity, but with his general anthropological assumptions. Julian considers the primordial nature of a person to be "incorruptible", non-suffering and immortal, free from the so-called "unreprehensible passions" (i.e. weak and "suffering" states in general). The fall significantly and hereditarily damages human nature, it becomes weak, mortal and corruptible. In the incarnation, God the Word perceives the nature of the original Adam, "passionless" and "incorruptible", therefore he becomes the New Adam. That's why Christ suffered and died "for the sake of reconciliation", according to God's will, "in the order of a miracle". However, the suffering and death of Christ were real and real, not an "opinion" or "phantom". But they were free, because it was not the death of a "corrupt" and "passionate" (suffering) person. The divine unity of Julian presents itself more narrowly than Severus. He refused to distinguish "natural qualities" in God's human synthesis. In the incarnation of the Word, the "incorruption" of the perceived flesh is secured by such a close union with the Godhead that in suffering and death it was removed by a kind of God's providential concession. Another of Julian's followers thought that this humanity, transfigured and deified in God-human unity, could no longer be called "creature". These followers of Juliana also appeared in Armenia. Judging by the struggle that the Church had with the "fantasists", it is possible to conclude that the roots they planted were deep. The unity of God and man in Christ was exaggerated by the "fantasists" to such an extent that the human being was immersed in the Godhead and was considered almost annihilated. For them, the human in Christ is not real, but a ghostly phenomenon. There is an obvious kinship with the Christological perception of Apollinaris and Eutychius (anthropological minimalism). It seemed to them that Christ really could not thirst, crave, suffer... Christ was not incarnated by the Virgin, but in the Virgin, and this incarnation for them was a kind of "mask" with which the Word of God appeared.

The Armenian Fathers teach that innocent passions are not the result of the Fall, but were given to Adam from the beginning of creation. Moreover, they will potentially remain in our nature even after resurrection. Therefore, when Christ perceives the incorruptible nature (as in Adam) - his sufferings are not ghostly and specially given by God, but completely natural.

Both heresies of Severus of Antioch and Julian of Halicarnassus were anathematized at the Council of Manazkert. We are interested in 6 anathema of the Council .

6. If anyone does not affirm Christ's flesh as incorrupt from <His birth> from the Virgin until eternity, not according to nature, but according to the ineffable union, but rather affirms that it is corruptible and inglorious and imperfect until the resurrection and then after the resurrection became incorrupt and glorious and perfect, let him be anathema.

"According to nature"
in Armenian tradition means before the union, and "according to the ineffable union" means after union (for instance, we say about "2 natures according to nature and 1 nature according to the union" (St. Hovanes of Odzun)). After the union, Christ cannot be said in any sense as a corruptible one, but only as an incorruptible one.

The reconciliation of Armenians and Syrians took place at this Council. Despite the fact that the Syrians confessed the position of Severus of Antioch, the union took place after long disputes. The Syrians accepted all the canons of Manazkert with difficulty and remained dissatisfied with the results of the Council. Despite the anathemas, the teaching of Severus about corruption was preserved by the Syrian Church. And the Armenian Fathers, who were at the Council, continued to lead a polemic with the Syrians even after the Council. One of them was Khosrovik Targmanich, who took part in the Council (his name is preserved in the Acts of Manazkert in the chronicles of Michael the Syrian). His letters against the Severians and Julianists have been preserved and are an example of Armenian Christianity.

In the future, the Syrians distorted the canons of the Manazkert. So, the 6th canon edited by Mikhail the Syrian looks like this:

6. Everyone who confesses that Christ’s flesh is corruptible, inglorious, and imperfect after the union and states that it was corruptible, inglorious, [and] imperfect from His conception to the resurrection, in a sense other than that employed by the prophets, apostles, Fathers and teachers, and that [only] after the resurrection is it incorruptible, glorious and perfect, let him be anathema.

So, this anathema can already be interpreted in the sense of Severus of Antioch. More details about this can be found in the article of S. Peter Cowe "Doctrinal Union or Agreement to Disagree? Armenians and Syrians at the Synod of Manazkert (726 CE)".

To conclude, I'd like to sayn that, despite the difference in the quality of Christ's body and the status of Severus of Antioch, the Armenian Church has full communion with other Oriental Orthodox Churches.
 
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dzheremi

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This is incredibly interesting, somewhat disturbing, but very informative. Thank you, Tigran! As a layperson in the Coptic Orthodox Church, I have heard vaguely about the rupture of communion between the Syrians and the Armenians, though not from Fr. V.C. Samuel's book (which I do own; I just don't remember this detail of it, as it has been years since I last read it). I had gotten the impression over time that the break in communion had more to do with Armenian eucharistic practices that differed from those of the Syrians. This is what I was able to get out of classical sources like Bar Salibi's 12th century polemic against the Armenians, anyway, which I have in a somewhat antiquated English translation in one of the old volumes of Woodbrooke Studies edited by Alphonse Mingana in the 1920s-30s (can't remember which volume specifically, but the series started in 1929).
 
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Theophilus Agapee

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Severus of Antioch is a Saint in the Oriental Orthodox Churches. Armenians always have problems with everything. No saint in the Church is perfect. All are fallible, except the Pope who is infallible in the dreams of the Roman Cathollics...
 
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Theophilus Agapee

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"St Severus of Antioch is one of the great Fathers of the Oriental Orthodox Churches. In the decades after the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD it was he, more than any other theologian, who expressed most forcefully and clearly the Orthodox Christology of the Oriental Orthodox Churches." (Fr. Moses Samaan, posted here on the website of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Los Angeles, Southern California and Hawai)
 
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Theophilus Agapee

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Any regional Council or Synod, especially after the Synod of Ephesus 449 A.D., that does not agree with the teaching of the Church in Her Three Ecumenical Councils, cannot be considered authoritative. The Word of God is our only authority, and the united Church is the only Pillar of truth.
 
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Tigran1245

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Severus of Antioch is a Saint in the Oriental Orthodox Churches. Armenians always have problems with everything. No saint in the Church is perfect. All are fallible, except the Pope who is infallible in the dreams of the Roman Cathollics...
"St Severus of Antioch is one of the great Fathers of the Oriental Orthodox Churches. In the decades after the Council of Chalcedon in 451 AD it was he, more than any other theologian, who expressed most forcefully and clearly the Orthodox Christology of the Oriental Orthodox Churches." (Fr. Moses Samaan, posted here on the website of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Los Angeles, Southern California and Hawai)
Well, he is a saint among other Oriental Orthodox Churches, but not among us.

So can we say that there is disagreement between Oriental Orthodox Churches?...
We are united by Three Ecumenical Councils. This is core of our faith. The rest, including the teaching on corruption/incorruption, rite, etc., is a local tradition.
Any regional Council or Synod, especially after the Synod of Ephesus 449 A.D., that does not agree with the teaching of the Church in Her Three Ecumenical Councils, cannot be considered authoritative. The Word of God is our only authority, and the united Church is the only Pillar of truth.
Every Council and the Holy Father are more or less authoritative.

But only Scripture and the truly Ecumenical Council have absolute infallible authority, yes.
 
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Theophilus Agapee

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Well, he is a saint among other Oriental Orthodox Churches, but not among us.
So Oriental Orthodox Churches differ in doctrine. Interesting.

Note that I am just saying the implications of what you claim. But in fact, things are not as you say. The Armenian Church also accepts Severus of Antioch as a Saint, especially after the Synod of Manzikert where they didn't mention Severus of Antioch as heretical after understanding from the Syriacs what Severus meant by "corruption". You know of course that Catholicos Aram I of Cilicia venerated the relics of Severus of Antioch with Pope Tawadros and the Patriarch Ignatius Aphrem II. (By the way, this kind of pagan venerations is one of the examples of practices that should be reformed in the Armenian Church).
We are united by Three Ecumenical Councils. This is core of our faith. The rest, including the teaching on corruption/incorruption, rite, etc., is a local tradition.
What a shallow unity when you disagree on the basics of Miaphysitism...

Again, I am just saying the implications of what you claim.
Every Council and the Holy Father are more or less authoritative.

But only Scripture and the truly Ecumenical Council have absolute infallible authority, yes.
So we need to reform what the other synods have corrupted, like the Synod of Dvin which wrongly accused Severus of Antioch of heresy.
 
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Tigran1245

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The Armenian Church also accepts Severus of Antioch as a Saint, especially after the Synod of Manzikert where they didn't mention Severus of Antioch as heretical after understanding from the Syriacs what Severus meant by "corruption".
At the Council of Manazkert, Severus was not condemned personally, but his teaching was anathematized. After Manazkert, the Syrians who participated in the Council, having returned from Armenia, contrary to the teaching of the Council, continued to teach corruption. In connection with this, Khosrovik Targmanich, whom I have already quoted to you, after the Council of Manazkert wrote several letters against the Severians (at the request of the Syrian Patriarch Athanasius).
IMG_2197.jpeg


The story that the Armenians allegedly accepted the teachings of Severus is taken (as for as I know) from the chronicles of the Syrian Patriarch Michael the Syrian. Therefore, it is not surprising that in the Syrian chronicles the Armenians accepted Severus. However, what is interesting is that the 10 anathemas of the Council of Manazkert differ in the Syrian and Armenian versions, some in the exact opposite way.

You know of course that Catholicos Aram I of Cilicia venerated the relics of Severus of Antioch with Pope Tawadros and the Patriarch Ignatius Aphrem II. (By the way, this kind of pagan venerations is one of the examples of practices that should be reformed in the Armenian Church).
My Vardapet told me that it was a diplomatic action.
What a shallow unity when you disagree on the basics of Miaphysitism...
The doctrine of incorruptibility is not the "basics" of Miaphysitism. I know very few people who understand this doctrine correctly.
So we need to reform what the other synods have corrupted, like the Synod of Dvin which wrongly accused Severus of Antioch of heresy.
This is not for you or me to decide, but for the authorities in our Church. If they justify or even recognize Severus as a saint - ok. But his teaching clearly contradicts the teaching of the Fathers of the Armenian Church.
 
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Theophilus Agapee

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At the Council of Manazkert, Severus was not condemned personally, but his teaching was anathematized. After Manazkert, the Syrians who participated in the Council, having returned from Armenia, contrary to the teaching of the Council, continued to teach corruption. In connection with this, Khosrovik Targmanich, whom I have already quoted to you, after the Council of Manazkert wrote several letters against the Severians (at the request of the Syrian Patriarch Athanasius).
View attachment 362705

The story that the Armenians allegedly accepted the teachings of Severus is taken (as for as I know) from the chronicles of the Syrian Patriarch Michael the Syrian. Therefore, it is not surprising that in the Syrian chronicles the Armenians accepted Severus. However, what is interesting is that the 10 anathemas of the Council of Manazkert differ in the Syrian and Armenian versions, some in the exact opposite way.
Yes, Armenians continue to misunderstand Severus of Antioch, and they are okay with their ignorance.

So the fact is that the Armenian Church needs reformation.
My Vardapet told me that it was a diplomatic action.
:babyangel:

No hypocrisy.

Imagine Cyril of Alexandria venerating the relics of Nestorius. :)

You see how much reformation our Church needs?
The doctrine of incorruptibility is not the "basics" of Miaphysitism. I know very few people who understand this doctrine correctly.
You referred me to this thread from a thread where we were talking about the basics of Miaphysitism, and in that threat you were contradicting Severus of Antioch and the Coptic Church (that venerates Severus) concerning the basics of Miaphysitism.
This is not for you or me to decide, but for the authorities in our Church. If they justify or even recognize Severus as a saint - ok. But his teaching clearly contradicts the teaching of the Fathers of the Armenian Church.
The authorities in our Church need to get reformed. They need to accept and believe the true Gospel.
 
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Tigran1245

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Yes, Armenians continue to misunderstand Severus of Antioch, and they are okay with their ignorance.
What is wrong with our understanding of Severus?
Imagine Cyril of Alexandria venerating the relics of Nestorius. :)
Cyril, in 433, reconciled with the followers of Nestorius and restored communion with them.
You referred me to this thread from a thread where we were talking about the basics of Miaphysitism, and in that threat you were contradicting Severus of Antioch and the Coptic Church (that venerates Severus) concerning the basics of Miaphysitism.
In another thread of the dialogue we did not discuss the issues of corruption/incorruption at all. Because it is not basic issue.
 
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Theophilus Agapee

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What is wrong with our understanding of Severus?
You misunderstand what he meant by "corruption". You think it's sinful corruption.

Of course, I am not saying that Severus was infallible: he made mistakes in the way he expressed himself. We don't believe that any saint in the Church is infallible, except the Pope of Rome, of course, who is made infallible by the Roman Catholic antichrist.
Cyril, in 433, reconciled with the followers of Nestorius and restored communion with them.
In that attempt for reconciliation, they tried to find a common ground and certain orthodox formula that can be accepted by both sides. But it failed.

You equate this to venerating the relics of Nestorius? :) I liked the joke.
In another thread of the dialogue we did not discuss the issues of corruption/incorruption at all. Because it is not basic issue.
In that thread you rejected what Severus of Antioch, this ORTHODOX Miaphysite teacher, said about the basics of Miaphysitism, and you justified that by the fact that he was rejected by the heretical Armenian Synod of Dvin. And that's why you referred me here. Otherwise, why am I here? :) Do I care about your issues with Severus of Antioch? What I care about is the basics which we are discussing in the other thread, because those basics are directly linked to the true Gospel.
 
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Tigran1245

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You misunderstand what he meant by "corruption". You think it's sinful corruption.
No. The Armenian Church condemns Severus not only for sinful corruption. Severus admits that Christ was sinless.

Armenian Church condemns Severus for biological corruption and decomposition. In his polemic with Julian, Severus said that Christ's body was subject to decomposition in the tomb.

From book “Incorruptible bodies”:
IMG_2199.jpeg

In that attempt for reconciliation, they tried to find a common ground and certain orthodox formula that can be accepted by both sides. But it failed.
During Cyrill’s life nothing failed.
In that thread you rejected what Severus of Antioch, this ORTHODOX Miaphysite teacher, said about the basics of Miaphysitism, and you justified that by the fact that he was rejected by the heretical Armenian Synod of Dvin.
I only pointed out that Severus cannot be taken as an authority on our religion.

The Second Dvin Council is absolutely Orthodox and is inseparable from the practice and teaching of the Armenian Church.
 
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Theophilus Agapee

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No. The Armenian Church condemns Severus not only for sinful corruption. Severus admits that Christ was sinless.

Armenian Church condemns Severus for biological corruption and decomposition. In his polemic with Julian, Severus said that Christ's body was subject to decomposition in the tomb.

From book “Incorruptible bodies”:
View attachment 362709
I have nothing to do with your theological debates as Traditionalist heretics. The main issue is that you are saying the Oriental Orthodox Church does not have doctrinal agreement in everything. So the Oriental Orthodox Church is not the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. It is not the Pillar and Support of the truth. It is just a communion of denominations, some of them more orthodox than the others.
During Cyrill’s life nothing failed.
So there was theological agreement for a while. The joke is that you are equating this to venerating the relics of Nestorius while still declaring him a heretic, as Aram I did with Severus per your claim. :D
I only pointed out that Severus cannot be taken as an authority on our religion.

The Second Dvin Council is absolutely Orthodox and is inseparable from the practice and teaching of the Armenian Church.
While the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is also Oriental Orthodox and Miaphysite, considers him authoritative, and VERY authoritative actually. So once again, the Oriental Orthodox Church is not one Church, and it is NOT the One Catholic and Apostolic Church as it claims.

Either the Second Dvin Synod is orthodox and the Coptic Orthodox Church is heterodox or heretical, or the Secodn Dvin Synod is heterodox or heretical and the Coptic Orthodox Church is orthodox. Everyone is free to choose.
 
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Tigran1245

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So the Oriental Orthodox Church is not the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
So once again, the Oriental Orthodox Church is not one Church, and it is NOT the One Catholic and Apostolic Church as it claims.
Church Council of 1179 in Rumkla and the works of Saints Nerses Lambronatsi, Nerses Shnorhali actually recognized that EO and Catholics are part of the Universal Church. So to say that only OO is the True Church of Christ is incorrect.

I am attaching screenshots from the book of Patriarch of Constantinople Maghakia Ormanian “The Armenian Church”.

IMG_2204.jpeg
IMG_2205.jpeg
 
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The Liturgist

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So can we say that there is disagreement between Oriental Orthodox Churches?...

No, because if this were true, the Copts and Syriacs and Ethiopians would have severed communion with the Armenians.
 
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Church Council of 1179 in Rumkla and the works of Saints Nerses Lambronatsi, Nerses Shnorhali actually recognized that EO and Catholics are part of the Universal Church. So to say that only OO is the True Church of Christ is incorrect.

In this I agree, and indeed the ecumenical agreements between the Syriac Orthodox and Antiochian Orthodox (EO) and between the Coptic Orthodox and Alexandrian Orthodox (EO) prove this point, especially the former.
 
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While the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is also Oriental Orthodox and Miaphysite, considers him authoritative, and VERY authoritative actually. So once again, the Oriental Orthodox Church is not one Church, and it is NOT the One Catholic and Apostolic Church as it claims.

The Oriental Orthodox church is a communion of those four Orthodox churches that had been falsely accused by some Chalcedonians of Monophysitism, which are local churches in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Some members of some of the local churches occasionally make inaccurate statements, but the consensus of Oriental Orthodox belief, which I subscribe to (I converted to Oriental Orthodoxy specifically in 2014, to the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch, my although at present I attend an Eastern Orthodox church because there is no Oriental Orthodox parish in my area and as a means of advocating for ecumenical reconciliation) can be used to provide guidance. And that consensus, which is supported by many Armenians, involves the teachings of St. Severus, who is so influential that his influence is deeply felt even within Eastern Orthodoxy.

For example, as far as we are aware the Presanctified Liturgy originated with St. Severus. It fell out of use in most Oriental Orthodox churches, although recently one of the Syriac Orthodox jurisdictions has restored it in India. Also the Church of the East, which has a complex relationship with us (the Syriac Orthodox Maphrian St. Gregory bar Hebraeus had a funeral provided by the Church of the East when he reposed in the 11th century on the way back to his monastery, the famed Monastery of St. Matthew in the hills above Mosul, from Tikrit, which is a center of the Syriac Orthodox faith, has resumed using the presanctified liturgy, and ROCOR recently translated the original Byzantine version of the pre-sanctified liturgy, “The Presanctified Liturgy of St. James”, which is clearly of Syriac Orthodox origin, since of course the Divine Liturgy of St. James is the primary liturgy of the Syriac Orthodox Church, just as the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil is the primarily liturgy of the Coptic Orthodox Church, and the Armenian Apostolic badarak consists of the Anaphora of St. Athanasius, which is an abbreviated form of the Anaphora of St. James. There used to be 14 anaphoras in use in the Armenian church, but sadly in the high middle ages the others, including the Presanctified liturgy, fell out of use.
 
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Tigran1245

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No, because if this were true, the Copts and Syriacs and Ethiopians would have severed communion with the Armenians.
At the Bristol consultation with EO, Bishop Mesrob Krikorian said directly that Armenian Church does not accept Severus' teaching on corruption. He also quotes the Patriarch of Constantinople, Maghakia Ormanian.
IMG_2206.jpeg
IMG_2207.jpeg
 
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Theophilus Agapee

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Church Council of 1179 in Rumkla and the works of Saints Nerses Lambronatsi, Nerses Shnorhali actually recognized that EO and Catholics are part of the Universal Church. So to say that only OO is the True Church of Christ is incorrect.

I am attaching screenshots from the book of Patriarch of Constantinople Maghakia Ormanian “The Armenian Church”.

View attachment 362717View attachment 362718
It's normal to be all-inclusive when you are not the Pillar and Support of the truth.
 
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