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Christian nationalist pastor McPherson: "Empathy is aligned with hell."

Jerry N.

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I read the list in Bible footnotes. A Presbyterian pastor said the later letters tried to reshape the message to make it more palatable in the Roman empire.
As far as adultery goes, it's sinful, but the consequential sins aren't even considered.
The questions about Paul’s authorship should not be argued here, and I would be arguing with your Presbyterian pastor second hand. I would suggest that you look at the writings of the early church fathers like Origen and Clement. I seem to remember that one of them knew somebody that knew Paul, but I might be wrong.

I’m not sure what you mean by “consequential sins aren't even considered.” If you mean that you have never heard a sermon against murder, it is probably because the pastor doesn’t entertain the possibility that there are people considering committing murder in his congregation. It is also a sin that is commonly condemned even outside the church.
 
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Fantine

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When Christians support things like the mass deportation of immigrants without due process, some to inhumane prisons--when most undocumented immigrants are just honest people driven by tragic circumstances to support their families--that's a collective sin of a sick society.
When Christian lust for oil creates tsunamis, famines, floods, hurricanes, and disasters--disproportionately killing people in the third world--that's the collective sin of a sick society.
When genocide is condoned, and even financially supported by America, when violence is tolerated, when totalitarianism and expansionism in Russia is applauded, that's the collective sin of a sick society.
When our country, which is far, far, far, far, far from being "socialist" in any way, shape or form, attacks the most vulnerable--whether due to poverty, ethnicity, mental illness, etc.--that's the collective sin of a sick society.

Our society has gotten exponentially sicker since 1/20. The most egregious human rights violations--like ending USAID, which not only prevents terrorism but also helps the neediest in the world, mostly through non-profits like Catholic Relief Services--have taken place, and Christians who should be protesting vigorously are defending the indefensible
 
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Jerry N.

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When Christians support things like the mass deportation of immigrants without due process, some to inhumane prisons--when most undocumented immigrants are just honest people driven by tragic circumstances to support their families--that's a collective sin of a sick society.
When Christian lust for oil creates tsunamis, famines, floods, hurricanes, and disasters--disproportionately killing people in the third world--that's the collective sin of a sick society.
When genocide is condoned, and even financially supported by America, when violence is tolerated, when totalitarianism and expansionism in Russia is applauded, that's the collective sin of a sick society.
When our country, which is far, far, far, far, far from being "socialist" in any way, shape or form, attacks the most vulnerable--whether due to poverty, ethnicity, mental illness, etc.--that's the collective sin of a sick society.

Our society has gotten exponentially sicker since 1/20. The most egregious human rights violations--like ending USAID, which not only prevents terrorism but also helps the neediest in the world, mostly through non-profits like Catholic Relief Services--have taken place, and Christians who should be protesting vigorously are defending the indefensible
I get the impression you don’t like Trump and his policies. I live in Poland, and I’m not happy with the way he is dealing with Ukraine. From what you have written, you either don’t know or understand the views on the right. Both sides have some valid points. Society has been sick for some time. Biden and Obama were very antichristian and did a lot to marginalize believers. Only one alternative was available, and that was unfortunately Trump. From my point of view, there were people like Ben Carson, who would have handled things in both a Christian and statesmanlike manner. However, the Covid lies, the push to praise LGBT as a virtue, and DEI made people so angry that they reacted in the extreme. I lived in America before Clinton, and politics wobbled between left and right, and there seemed to be a balance. Now things swing to extremes, and society is sick. Anger and hatred, from whatever source, don’t solve problems. Christians are just sinners saved by grace, and they can be led by emotions like everybody else. Have faith that the Holy Spirit will lead believers and whatever sickness is in society can be cured. The last time I checked, God is still on the throne. Relax and do what you can to make things better through love. Trump can only be there for four years.
 
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BPPLEE

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And what I believe is the "real" Christian response in alignment with the teachings of Jesus.



Whoever would have thought that we would have to defend empathy to supposedly Christian pastors?
FRENCH: There are times when the head has to overrule the heart. That is something that has to happen sometimes in public policy. But at the same time, there should be no objection to appeals to the heart because our compassion, our empathy is a fundamental part of who we should be as human beings.
 
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linux.poet

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I agree with Pastor McPherson on this particular quote, at least at first glance.

Empathy is not my obedience to Ephesians 4:32.
Empathy is a demand that I subject the conclusions of my intellect to your emotions.
Empathy is a demand that I subject my beliefs to your emotions.

Empathy walks like hell, talks like hell, feels like hell, and I consider it to be a lie of Satan. Now I need to explain my position, which I will do.

First, I believe that human beings process their experience of life like this:
information (processed through the intellect) --> beliefs --> emotions --> actions --> identity
So if someone is demanding that I subject my intellect to their emotions, they are demanding that I subject my intellect to their intellect and my beliefs to their beliefs, because their emotions come from their beliefs. This is called gaslighting. It is similar to how abusers demand that their victims become subject to their lies by the use of violent threats if the victim does not comply; the only difference is that empaths are less violent and more likely to make dumb complaints to authority figures rather than taking matters into their own hands. They may also resort to guilt-tripping and other emotional attacks.

Now, let us be clear: this intellectual position is not a demand by me that you subject your emotions to my sin nature. It also is not a demand by me that you subject your emotions to the output of my mental illness.
Sin may cause emotional pain; all things that cause emotional pain are not sin. That must be (intellectually!) evaluated.
Mental illness may cause emotional pain, both to the self and to others. All things said or done to you that cause emotional pain to you are not because of another person's mental illness. That must be evaluated.

I am speaking as someone who has gone through nightmarish levels of emotional pain, so I am not approaching this matter casually. I am not responsible for the abuse I have endured, and I am not responsible for the trauma I have suffered, but I am responsible for all the emotional pain I have endured, because I am responsible for my beliefs, and I am responsible for my emotions that those beliefs generate.

It is also not a demand that you subject your emotions to my intellect. This position simply asks that you respect the output of my intellect enough to read it or listening to it without condemning it because you find it emotionally painful to digest. It asks you to realize that I am a human being, I have the right to read information and decide my beliefs for myself; and that you have no right to treat my intellect with condescending disrespect. What matters is not how sophisticated my intellect is (though I have a nice college degree), what matters is that empathy is inhumanity.

The source of empathy is a common female parenting error. As a parent, you need your children's intellect and beliefs to be subject to your own. This is because the child's intellect is not good enough to handle the world yet, and so the child needs to learn to obey you. You also need your child's actions to be subject to your commands. Thus, many parents make the horrendously abusive mistake of assuming that their children are to become subject to their emotions in the middle. This is wrong, of course, because beliefs and intellect are consistent; emotions and feelings based on those emotions are inconsistent. Children are strong enough to learn beliefs if parents teach them, but they aren't good enough to calculate what they should think based on seeming random demands for emotional compliance. The result is abuse, since you are soothing your emotional hurts at your children's expense. This is what creates empathy: subject yourself to your abusive parents' emotions, learn to read them and cater to their every need or be punished.

And then, since your parents taught you to subject yourself to their emotions, you grow up to demand that the world and everyone else should be subject to your emotions. Women also get used to subjecting children's sin nature to their intellect and struggle to get out of parent mode and converse as equals with other adult humans sometimes, which can lead to them demanding empathetic subjugation from such equals. Sometimes they even fall into the trap of serving their child's emotions. But it's wrong and it needs to be dealt with as the Satanic lie that it is.

Second, empathy is NOT the ability to see and understand the perspective of someone who is having an emotional experience that is different from your own, and to adjust your communication and actions to soothe the other person's emotional state. You're not an empath for following Ephesians 4:32, caring for your spouse or friend, or listening to a person's problem and offering solutions.

The reason why is that seeing your friend's emotional state is an intellectual operation. You see the signs that your friend is in pain, you decide based on what they are communicating to you that a response is required, you believe that response will help, and then you act. All of that is calculated. You are in control. Your spouse did not demand that you make tea; you made it yourself and offered it to them. You allowed your spouse to take a nap. You choose to write that advocacy letter; there was no demand for you to feel.

I believe that Ephesians 4:32 is correct; therefore I felt affection for my fellow Christian and I chose to pray for him. That is not empathy; that is me acting and feeling in accordance with my beliefs.

Third, I believe that my intellect is the most subject to the Holy Spirit and the Word of God, as in Scripture, since that is the part of myself that reads, studies, and considers the Scripture. Further, my emotions are to be subject to Christ; he is the authority (Matthew 28; Romans 10:9). As my beliefs align with Scripture, my emotions align with God's and my actions become what He wants me to do.

Therefore, empathy is a demand that I worship your emotions as God. It is idolatry. I will have none of it.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly, of course, the empathetic demand that Christians should subject their intellect and beliefs to LGTBQ+ people's emotions is common in LGTBQ+ circles, which has no doubt prompted these books as political responses. Mainline Protestantism denies LGTBQ and claims it is sin, so that's where you get the backlash there, against their nasty emotional tool.

But it does not matter - I've heard moms complain about my children's ministry in the past because they don't feel good about the topics I was presenting because I was teaching what the Scripture actually said in response to their children's questions. I respected the intellect of those children enough to give them real answers, and since those children were supposed to be emotionally subject to Mom, how dare I cultivate those children's intellect enough to think and believe for themselves instead of feeling for Mommy. (And no, I wasn't taking about how children are made or other things that they shouldn't know about; it was Biblical principles and political stuff.) Whether in parenting or trauma or LGTBQ, empathy is morally wrong and deserves to be shunned for the lie that it is.
 
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Bradskii

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Second, empathy is NOT the ability to see and understand the perspective of someone who is having an emotional experience that is different from your own...
That's exactly what empathy is. It's the ability to understand the emotional state of another person.
The reason why is that seeing your friend's emotional state is an intellectual operation. You see the signs that your friend is in pain, you decide based on what they are communicating to you that a response is required, you believe that response will help, and then you act. All of that is calculated. You are in control.
What you do in response is entirely up to you. Having the ability to understand what someone is going through does not compell you to help. Or act in any way whatsoever. That will be up to your conscience.
 
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linux.poet

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That's exactly what empathy is. It's the ability to understand the emotional state of another person.
Raw understanding isn't enough for empathy. I can understand your emotional state and then take advantage of it to destroy you. Under your definition, chess players and military generals would be empaths.

Empathy requires subjugation to the other person's emotions.
 
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Bradskii

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Raw understanding isn't enough for empathy. I can understand your emotional state and then take advantage of it to destroy you. Under your definition, chess players and military generals would be empaths.

Empathy requires subjugation to the other person's emotions.
I'm not sure where you're getting that from. These are literally the first three defintions that come up:

the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

the ability to emotionally understand what other people feel, see things from their point of view, and imagine yourself in their place.

the ability to sense other people's emotions, coupled with the ability to imagine what someone else might be thinking or feeling.

So let's say that you act in a way that affects someone else. If you can understand how they feel then you have three choices:
1. Ignore what they are feeling because it doesn't concern you.
2. Realise that your act has an effect that you didn't intend, so you might think to stop doing it or to not do it again.
3. Realise that your act has an effect that you did intend, so you might continue to do it or do it again.

The effect can be negative for the other person or positive. You might want to increase the pleasure or decrease the discomfort they feel. Or you may actually want to continue to discomfort the person. As I said, that's down to your conscience. The fact that you can empathise with the person, that you can 'imagine what someone else might be thinking or feeling' gives you those options.

Empathy doesn't dictate your options. It simply allows you to understand how other people feel about what you do.
 
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linux.poet

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I'm not sure where you're getting that from.
Combination of a lot of personal experiences and this YouTube video:

I am using the psychological definition of empath as defined by childhood trauma literature. Since books mentioned earlier deal with an evangelical response to LGTBQ+, and LGTBQ+ are likely dealing with childhood trauma, it's important to use the correct definition of this word in the right context.
So let's say that you act in a way that affects someone else. If you can understand how they feel then you have three choices:
1. Ignore what they are feeling because it doesn't concern you.
2. Realise that your act has an effect that you didn't intend, so you might think to stop doing it or to not do it again.
3. Realise that your act has an effect that you did intend, so you might continue to do it or do it again.

Empathy doesn't dictate your options.
This looks like a contradiction to me.
 
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Servus

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I was a choir accompanist in a fundamentalist church for a few years. It was an eye-opener for me. I liked the people and the pastor. It was pre-Trump so there was not the virulent extremism that exists today.
One thing I always noticed was that the messages were almost never about the Gospels. Or even Acts. Mostly the letters and the OT.
Now the letters, especially Paul, institutionalized the Church.
Jesus wasn't about rules. He was about relationship and heart.
I knew little about the letters before this experience. And then I learned half the letters attributed to Paul weren't even written by him.
I think that institutions need to respond to the times. Everything we have learned about science and cosmology makes solo-scriptura seem in need of serious reinterpretation. What does the Bible say to mankind today? Truths are eternal...but details?
I look at Pope Francis as a leader who applies timeless truths to the world today, using the knowledge of today. He was a scientist, a chemist, before entering the Jesuits.
The biggest sin today is not transgender or LGBT individuals. It's exploitative materialism, with the haves practicing genocide in Gaza, invading Ukraine, completely barring immigration, raping the environment--which hurts the poor the most.
As far as sin goes, LGBT is a distraction compared to the more serious sins.
The oligarchs of today, not content with exploiting the earth, have commercialized the space program.
Liberal empathy is not manipulative nor misplaced. It is a clear-eyed vision of mankind unfiltered by selfishness and greed.
For someone who's not about rules, Jesus issued quite a lot of commands, and promised to punish those who disobey them.
 
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Bradskii

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Combination of a lot of personal experiences and this YouTube video:
So you have personal experience of understanding what other people are feeling. No problem. Almost everyone has that. And I'm not interested in a random Youtuber.
I am using the psychological definition of empath as defined by childhood trauma literature.
I used the highlighted term to do a search and all the hits gave me the same definition as I've given you. For example, from here: What is the Relationship Between Childhood Trauma and Empathy? - thewaveclinic.com

'Empathy is the ability to recognise another person’s thoughts and feelings, and experience an appropriate emotion in response.'
This looks like a contradiction to me.
It isn't. Empathy doesn't dictate which option you should take. It simply gives you an understanding of what someone else might be feeling. You can react to that as you see fit.

Edit: And what's with the use of the term 'empath'? Unless one has a psychological problem, we're all 'empaths'.
 
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Jerry N.

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So you have personal experience of understanding what other people are feeling. No problem. Almost everyone has that. And I'm not interested in a random Youtuber.

I used the highlighted term to do a search and all the hits gave me the same definition as I've given you. For example, from here: What is the Relationship Between Childhood Trauma and Empathy? - thewaveclinic.com

'Empathy is the ability to recognise another person’s thoughts and feelings, and experience an appropriate emotion in response.'

It isn't. Empathy doesn't dictate which option you should take. It simply gives you an understanding of what someone else might be feeling. You can react to that as you see fit.

Edit: And what's with the use of the term 'empath'? Unless one has a psychological problem, we're all 'empaths'.
I think this is the first time I fully agreed with you. However, I have two questions: What happened to the word “compassion?” Why do people tell me that they empathize with animals? They don’t know what the animal is feeling. I think it is a form of projection, as I wrote earlier. Why can’t they just say they feel sorry for the little thing?
 
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linux.poet

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So you have personal experience of understanding what other people are feeling.
No, I have personal experience of people demanding that I experience a certain emotional response when they had no right to demand that of me. They were all empaths or claimed some sort of empathic ability as their reason for their demand. They wanted my emotions and actions/reactions to change in response to their demand. That's what I meant in that context.

the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

the ability to emotionally understand what other people feel, see things from their point of view, and imagine yourself in their place.

the ability to sense other people's emotions, coupled with the ability to imagine what someone else might be thinking or feeling.
This ability is impossible and does not truly exist. Nobody is truly an empath. They fake it using intellectual calculations and intelligent guesswork.

Most people are easy to read in real life and simply think and feel along with the crowd and the nearest authority figure. They are conformists. Therefore, it creates the illusion that people's emotions and responses can be easily understood, which empaths believe. When you don't have the emotion they think you are feeling, they harass you with a demand to produce that emotion and claim that you are lying about your feelings. It's pretty obvious to me. Most people conform and seek the approval of others in their social group, and extroverts basically have the same thinking as the group anyway, so they just conform to what the "empaths" think they are feeling without thinking about it.

My emotions are controlled, complex, and muted, and I am the authority on what they are - it is simply too complex for an outsider to read. For example, right now I am annoyed because I just wanted to post my opinion in the long post two posts up and leave. However, I believe in the value of intellectual debate, even over subjects that I find to be uncomfortable. This produces the emotion of value, which is why I am still pressing keys when another part of my brain is telling me that I don't want to relive a nightmarish personal experience from 2021. Sometimes bad experiences can lock up cognitive resources, but they can also be instructive. But I know that because I am inside my own head. There's no way someone could read and understand all that from the outside without me directly telling them.

But the intrapersonal clarity that I have just described is not a universal ability. How is everybody supposed to avoid intrapersonal projection when using supposed "empathic" abilities? Dr. Meyer describes the phenomenon of intrapersonal projection in Don't Let the Jerks Get The Best of You. Answer: they don't. Are some people better able to make better intellectual calculations and intelligent guesswork than me? Yes, some people read facial expressions and make better guesses. Data on psychological patterns is helpful to understand another person's response. There are ways to improve the batting average.

But at the end of the day, there is no biological tunnel in which the biological chemicals of an emotional response can pass from one human to another. Therefore, there is no true empathetic abilities. Emotions must be communicated either verbally or non-verbally from one human being to another directly, and the communication has to be understood enough by the recipient. Once I understood that, it vastly improved my writing abilities because I no longer expected people to understand my internal world without a detailed and sufficient explanation that was true and correct. Misunderstandings led to unproductive reactions; it was better for me to imagine all the ways my writing could be misunderstood by the recipient and adjust my message accordingly.

And then, what will happen in response to that paragraph, I predict that someone will move the empathetic goalposts to claim that communication of emotion is empathy, or at least the ability to understand direct emotional communication. Also, eventually someone might come along who is a raging extravert with an interpersonal IQ of 180 and argue that since I had CPTSD I am totally handicapped in the empathy department, and since I don't have the ability, I assume it doesn't exist, and also that I don't emote properly because of my mental illness. Which I would consider incredibly hurtful and disrespectful because I believe that socialization should be honest and not a performance act like the way most extroverts view it. But just remember, I predicted your arrival and I understand your position, so you don't have a leg to stand on. Also I don't know what your emotions are on reading this, because I'm not you. :p

At the end of the day, this whole debate largely comes down to personal experience, because empathy doesn't exist. But you can personally experience what you believe to be empathy, and I can personally experience what I believe to be an empathy-less world where people struggle to be understood even when they actually communicate clearly. Both sides can produce convincing arguments - any debate that boils down to personal experience is eternal and not really useful.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Empathy requires subjugation to the other person's emotions.
Empathy is not a trick or attack that others are imposing on you.
Empathy is something within you. (or maybe it isn't for the psychopaths*)

*Totally not a slur. Psychopaths are literally characterized by a lack of empathy.
 
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Jerry N.

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Empathy is not a trick or attack that others are imposing on you.
Empathy is something within you. (or maybe it isn't for the psychopaths*)

*Totally not a slur. Psychopaths are literally characterized by a lack of empathy.

That is a very good point. Psychopaths have a very good idea about what others are feeling, and the bad ones use it for manipulation. However, they don’t actually feel it themselves. The odd thing is that they can feel pleasure when other feels pain.
 
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MehGuy

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That is a very good point. Psychopaths have a very good idea about what others are feeling, and the bad ones use it for manipulation. However, they don’t actually feel it themselves. The odd thing is that they can feel pleasure when other feels pain.

I have read that at least some psychopaths can turn emotional empathy on and off at will, which frankly is a scary thought.
 
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Akita Suggagaki

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Empathy is a demand that I subject the conclusions of my intellect to your emotions.
Empathy is a demand that I subject my beliefs to your emotions.
Where do you get that?
 
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