Exodus Historicity

[2PhiloVoid]

No, its not part of the "culture wars". The historicity of Exodus or Joshua are matters of scholarly and scientific examination.

The "culture wars" are all of that "woke/anti-woke", etc. nonsense, not the facts of ancient history or the truth of various religious claims.

Your sentiments here about the nature of today's culture wars in connection to ancient history and the Bible are commendable. If only your feelings on the matter reflected the political and ideological situation completely rather than partially. But we don't have to haggle over all of that since this is a physical and life sciences thread rather than a social sciences thread...........................

I'm sure James Madison would be proud of us for refraining from haggling.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Your sentiments here about the nature of today's culture wars in connection to ancient history and the Bible are commendable.

Compartmentalization is a good thing. It is important not confuse unrelated things because you can connect them with a very thin thread.

If only your feelings on the matter reflected the political and ideological situation completely rather than partially. But we don't have to haggle over all of that since this is a physical and life sciences thread rather than a social sciences thread...........................

The subject is historicity, a scholarly or scientific question, not one of politics or ideology. This *is* the appropriate place to be.

I'm sure James Madison would be proud of us for refraining from haggling.

There is no price to bargain about here. Nothing to haggle over.

 

[AV1611VET]

Threads like this one show me that academia apparently loves to go traipsing around countries that are hostile to Israel.

So hostile, in fact, that they've gone to war with them.

Any academic news out of Israel?

No?

Why not?

How's come we never hear of academia worried about what kings reigned in Israel and when?

It's always Egypt -- a sworn enemy of Israel.

Interesting observation, as far as I'm concerned.

The Bible documents what kings served in Israel -- including their names and genealogies -- and when they served.

Yet academia questions as to whether even Moses existed.

Egypt has no such academic records, yet you see scientists dredging up ANYTHING with a name on it, in order to try and ascertain who lived when in Egypt.

Very interesting indeed.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Compartmentalization is a good thing. It is important not confuse unrelated things because you can connect them with a very thin thread.

My sentiments exacty, Hans, especially when I hear it coming from a large variety of Ex-Christian youtubers and various other now atheistic and "pagan" voices who are firmly entrenched on the Left side of our 21st century Western politics.

The subject is historicity, a scholarly or scientific question, not one of politics or ideology. This *is* the appropriate place to be.

Unfortunately, demagogues both Left and Right have beaten you to the punch in taking away from the masses the more academically neutral position one might attempt to have about the historicity of past writings, narratives and artifacts that you and I would like to enjoy.........................

There is no price to bargain about here. Nothing to haggle over.

There's always something that can be discussed when and where the Philosophy of History is front and center. And yes, in this case, where the study of Historiography and the Historian's Craft and Hermeneutics are center stage in conjunction with Archaeology, the philosophical aspects of the historian's efforts are inescapable and can't be dismissed whatsoever. It's just a part of any Historian's inquiry.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Have a listen to the Undeceptions episode above. There is internal biblical textual and cultural evidence of the Israelites having lived in Egypt.

You reply to my post as if the text you quoted was wrong, but none of your replies in this post respond to "culture wars" and how they might be related to the historicity of Exodus. I don't have time to listen to some podcast.

But today's Egyptologists rule it out automatically, because it's the bible. They sort of abandon biblical historical clues. To them it's just a religious book - not a stele or inscription or something Egyptian - it's ruled out of court before it has had a chance to speak.

I recently ran across this and it is call "biblical minimalism". It is mostly about history/archeology of the Levant (not Egypt) and peaked a couple decades ago. It was never "universal" even in the archeology of what is now Israel/Palestine, and is mostly irrelevant in Egyptology.

Historian prefer contemporary evidence, and the problem with the Jewish scripture is that none of what we have is contemporary with the events being investigated. There are no copies of Exodus from anywhere near the alleged events (and plenty of textual evidence that they weren't even written for several centuries).

This is not my area - I barely remember the details - stuff like names and cultural references etc. There's also temple paintings referencing Semites.

Semites are a large group of peoples spanning a large region over a long period of time. Semitic peoples were common in the lands between Anatolia, Egypt, and Persia (including Arabia) and Semitic language are *still* spoken in that region. Semitic peoples were not just Caananites like the Israelites.

But there definitely is a sort of cultural bias in Egyptology against doing their due diligence with an ancient text - and it seems to be because it is a faith still practices today.

The Hebrew Bible is not an Egyptian text. They are far too busy studying the Egyptian texts and artifacts to do this "due diligence". I doubt they read deeply the Babylonian or Sumerian or Hittite texts either.

There's an embarrassment about being seen to study it. But here's the thing - almost every ancient text is religious!

They really aren't. Large caches of documents include plenty of things about regular individual people -- contracts, legal disputes, tax and financial records, etc. When people had cheap ways to write (clay tablets and papyrus) they did lots of writing. Those monument and tomb descriptions of the deeds of pharaohs are not religious, but political or historical. (And no, referring to the pharaoh as a living god or being blessed by some deity doesn't make the a historical/political text "religious" any more than a modern text that refers to a leader succeeding due to "divine providence" or giving the year as "Anno Domini".

They don't have trouble reading other religions texts or scrolls or wall paintings.

Egyptologists read religious texts to learn about Egyptian religion.

 

[AV1611VET]

Egyptologists read religious texts to learn about Egyptian religion.

God thumped their deities with the Ten Plagues.

Exodus 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

 

[Hans Blaster]

My sentiments exacty, Hans, especially when I hear it coming from a large variety of Ex-Christian youtubers and various other now atheistic and "pagan" voices who are firmly entrenched on the Left side of our 21st century Western politics.

So you agree about compartmentalization and then immediately comment about things not in the compartment related to the thread topic. SMH.

I don't care what YouTubers, podcasters, and bloggers are writing about. They are not the topic of the thread either. The complaints about Egyptologists/scholars on this thread and their attitudes about "scripture" are not about "bloggers/etc".

I am not and never have been a pagan. I am (and always have been) a barbarian. The alignment of non-Christians to the left side of politics in the US is entirely because the defining characteristics of the right in US politics are Christian social positions that we non-believers have no reason to hold.

Unfortunately, demagogues both Left and Right have beaten you to the punch in taking away from the masses the more academically neutral position one might attempt to have about the historicity of past writings, narratives and artifacts that you and I would like to enjoy.........................

and here I thought you were all about fighting against the intrusion into academic/scholarly topics. This is surrender. (You certainly don't care for my incursions in to philosophy.) The subject of the thread is the historicity of Exodus. We don't need to worry about any of these other things. We are free to discuss it as we see fit and can ignore any of this politics/culture stuff.

There's always something that can be discussed when and where the Philosophy of History is front and center. And yes, in this case, where the study of Historiography and the Historian's Craft and Hermeneutics are center stage in conjunction with Archaeology, the philosophical aspects of the historian's efforts are inescapable and can't be dismissed whatsoever. It's just a part of any Historian's inquiry.

What's that got to do with haggling? This isn't a souk.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

So you agree about compartmentalization and then immediately comment about things not in the compartment related to the thread topic. SMH.

I have no clear reference to the specific form and application of compartmentalization you're talking about, so maybe I misunderstood what you meant by this?

I don't care what YouTubers, podcasters, and bloggers are writing about. They are not the topic of the thread either. The complaints about Egyptologists/scholars on this thread and their attitudes about "scripture" are not about "bloggers/etc".

I wasn't merely referring to the typical amateur, blogging youtubers...................you should know that by now. Let's not pretend that it's only amateurs who are inhabiting the social spaces of youtube, or of any other social media platform.

I am not and never have been a pagan. I am (and always have been) a barbarian. The alignment of non-Christians to the left side of politics in the US is entirely because the defining characteristics of the right in US politics are Christian social positions that we non-believers have no reason to hold.

I didn't say you are a pagan. Why you'd assume that I included you in that when I was describing those whom I listen to on youtube, I'll never know.

and here I thought you were all about fighting against the intrusion into academic/scholarly topics. This is surrender. (You certainly don't care for my incursions in to philosophy.) The subject of the thread is the historicity of Exodus. We don't need to worry about any of these other things. We are free to discuss it as we see fit and can ignore any of this politics/culture stuff.

Yes, I ignore it, as long as folks on the Left and Right allow me to. But y'know, when someone like myself is inclined to "believe" in the narrative statements of the Old Testament, however uneven and academically parsed I may do so, one is bound to hear about it from the Left since there are so many social and ideological ideas wrapped up in the thought of those ol' Israelites.

What's that got to do with haggling? This isn't a souk.

Somehow, I think you and I inhabit different academic/scholarly venues and viewpoints, Hans. We might as well not even talk to one another. Let's not pretend that you care what I think or how I think on any given topic, anyway.

And yes, there is an insidious form of "cultural war" going on that many folks push to make it inescapable for those like myself, and there has been such a cultural antagonism at least since Thomas Paine opened his big fat mouth on just about, well, anything.................................. (actually, before him, but I digress).

 

[AV1611VET]

I am not and never have been a pagan. I am (and always have been) a barbarian.

What's this then?

P.S. You were never a Christian to begin with; but that's another theological subject!

That's quite a claim. You seem to be calling me a liar. Care to retract that? because I very much was a Christian.

Source: My Research Challenge Re Noah's Flood

 

[Hans Blaster]

I have no clear reference to the specific form and application of compartmentalization you're talking about, so maybe I misunderstood what you meant by this?

Given that you replied that your sentiments matched mine, I thought you understood. Perhaps you didn't. Perhaps I should have been clued in by your immediate references to atheist, pagans, and vloggers that you weren't actually agreeing about compartmentalization. I don't care what the atheists, vlogers, or pagans say, nor about how they use what they think they know about this subject for their own purposes. The topic is the historicity of Exodus, not what what joe's blog says or a cal to The Atheist Experience.

I wasn't merely referring to the typical amateur, blogging youtubers...................you should know that by now. Let's not pretend that it's only amateurs who are inhabiting the social spaces of youtube, or of any other social media platform.

Were you listening to Drs. Josh and Kipp again? (And remember, they are not Egyptologists or archeologists, but textual scholars of various semitic texts.) [And it was from them that I heard about "biblical minimalism" recently.]

There are scholars of various positions on this topic (the thread topic) and how to apply their topics to it. It's all out there for all to see. You've got Rohl and Finkelstein and many others. Nothing is being "suppressed".

I didn't say you are a pagan. Why you'd assume that I included you in that when I was describing those whom I listen to on youtube, I'll never know.

You referenced "pagans" among those violating the "compartment" and I was only demonstrating how much I don't care what pagans say or do. Not now, not ever. I don't even have to try to compartmentalize them away, they don't matter to me.

Yes, I ignore it, as long as folks on the Left and Right allow me to. But y'know, when someone like myself is inclined to "believe" in the narrative statements of the Old Testament, however uneven and academically parsed I may do so, one is bound to hear about it from the Left since there are so many social and ideological ideas wrapped up in the thought of those ol' Israelites.


Somehow, I think you and I inhabit different academic/scholarly venues and viewpoints, Hans. We might as well not even talk to one another. Let's not pretend that you care what I think or how I think on any given topic, anyway.

I suspect you don't even read The Physical Review, let alone contribute. But that doesn't bother me in the slightest. (Most people here don't either.)

The scholarship at issue here is Egyptology, archeology, Syriology, etc., none of which is either of our focii.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Given that you replied that your sentiments matched mine, I thought you understood. Perhaps you didn't. Perhaps I should have been clued in by your immediate references to atheist, pagans, and vloggers that you weren't actually agreeing about compartmentalization. I don't care what the atheists, vlogers, or pagans say, nor about how they use what they think they know about this subject for their own purposes. The topic is the historicity of Exodus, not what what joe's blog says or a cal to The Atheist Experience.

Were you listening to Drs. Josh and Kipp again? (And remember, they are not Egyptologists or archeologists, but textual scholars of various semitic texts.) [And it was from them that I heard about "biblical minimalism" recently.]

There are scholars of various positions on this topic (the thread topic) and how to apply their topics to it. It's all out there for all to see. You've got Rohl and Finkelstein and many others. Nothing is being "suppressed".


You referenced "pagans" among those violating the "compartment" and I was only demonstrating how much I don't care what pagans say or do. Not now, not ever. I don't even have to try to compartmentalize them away, they don't matter to me.

I suspect you don't even read The Physical Review, let alone contribute. But that doesn't bother me in the slightest. (Most people here don't either.)

The scholarship at issue here is Egyptology, archeology, Syriology, etc., none of which is either of our focii.

Whatever. There's nothing to discuss here.

 

[eclipsenow]

You just slipped in one of the anti-bible sentiments....
"plenty of textual evidence that they weren't even written for several centuries"

In the secular historical world, it's now almost dogma that Israel never came from Egypt but from Canaan itself. That this whole Exodus thing is some kind of salvation story imbued into their culture. (Good luck defending that hypothesis! When does some sort of priest stand up and declare that a people are not actually from there? How does that work when people told stories about their grandparents doings etc. EG: The Australian aboriginals are profoundly connected to place and tell stories going back generations and generations about belonging in place. How does this myth get pushed on people? That boggles the mind more than the Exodus story!)

But the problem is, these stories involve Israelites with subtle Egyptian influences on their names, and accurate descriptions of the adoption practices of being raised in the royal creche - a kind of training ground that looked good on any future leader of Egypt's CV!

There are also special geographic descriptions in the text that betray local knowledge of the times and places because they then quickly changed a generation later. The Nile shifted and so a town had to move! It betrayed eyewitness testimony.

Finally - regarding the lack of evidence today? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The Israelites were living in an area that is now largely under water or boggy. (That shifting Nile hey?) Any papyrus evidence rotted away. Skip across to the bible lands - and that the dead sea scrolls survived was testimony to the dry climate and caves they were placed in. It's amazing that we know anything about the ancient world - given the amount of cultural evidence lost to war, fire, decay, and time.

We have the internal textual evidence of the bible - not just the narrative (that the sceptic will never go along with) but the sneaky names and geographic evidence. In Egypt we have paintings of Semites on temple walls, other descriptions of the royal creche training and education practices. But the modern Egyptologist who is not acquainted with the bible at all just gets dogmatic about 'peer-reviewed consensus' that Israel was never even in Egypt. They haven't studied the bible itself for hints that might actually stand out to them like neon lights - yet declare what they 'know'.

Well, Professor James Hoffmeier is a professional Egyptologist who also - unlike them - knows a thing or two about the bible. So he's a biblical maximalist.

 

[Hans Blaster]

You seem to have replied to me. Please use the "Reply" button to do so in the future.

You just slipped in one of the anti-bible sentiments....
"plenty of textual evidence that they weren't even written for several centuries"

It's not about "anti-bible sentiment" it is a simple result of biblical scholarship. Your problem is with them, not me. They love studying the bible, I found it boring and stopped reading somewhere after the exodus story.

The text that makes the description (the book of Exodus) is well understood by bible scholars to not have been written contemporanously with any proposed date for the exodus from Egypt.

In the secular historical world, it's now almost dogma that Israel never came from Egypt but from Canaan itself.

As I understand it, the best evidence for the Isrealites being Canaanites is the earliest evidence for the Israelites in the Judean hills comes without out changes in the material culture. This indicates that the Israelite Yahweh religion was an indigenous religious movement of southern Caanan emerging out of the existing culture of Caanan.

That this whole Exodus thing is some kind of salvation story imbued into their culture. (Good luck defending that hypothesis! When does some sort of priest stand up and declare that a people are not actually from there? How does that work when people told stories about their grandparents doings etc. EG: The Australian aboriginals are profoundly connected to place and tell stories going back generations and generations about belonging in place. How does this myth get pushed on people? That boggles the mind more than the Exodus story!)

What? I don't know what you're trying to say.

But the problem is, these stories involve Israelites with subtle Egyptian influences on their names, and accurate descriptions of the adoption practices of being raised in the royal creche - a kind of training ground that looked good on any future leader of Egypt's CV!

There are also special geographic descriptions in the text that betray local knowledge of the times and places because they then quickly changed a generation later. The Nile shifted and so a town had to move! It betrayed eyewitness testimony.

I can't make heads or tails of what you are trying to say here.

Finally - regarding the lack of evidence today? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The Israelites were living in an area that is now largely under water or boggy. (That shifting Nile hey?)

On a branch of the Nile that dried up?

Any papyrus evidence rotted away. Skip across to the bible lands - and that the dead sea scrolls survived was testimony to the dry climate and caves they were placed in. It's amazing that we know anything about the ancient world - given the amount of cultural evidence lost to war, fire, decay, and time.

We have the internal textual evidence of the bible - not just the narrative (that the sceptic will never go along with) but the sneaky names and geographic evidence.

And what is that?

In Egypt we have paintings of Semites on temple walls,

There are lots of different Semites, most of them are not Israelites. For example, the "Hyksos" leaders of lower Egypt were probably Caananites/

other descriptions of the royal creche training and education practices.

What's this got to do with anything? (I have no idea what "royal creche training" even is.)

But the modern Egyptologist who is not acquainted with the bible at all just gets dogmatic about 'peer-reviewed consensus' that Israel was never even in Egypt. They haven't studied the bible itself for hints that might actually stand out to them like neon lights - yet declare what they 'know'.

Egyptologists study Egypt. Why would they even care enough to get "dogmatic" about "Israel" in Egypt. They work with they evidence they have in Egypt.

Well, Professor James Hoffmeier is a professional Egyptologist who also - unlike them - knows a thing or two about the bible. So he's a biblical maximalist.

As I already stated there is no suppression of the notion that there are factual things in the Pentateuch. I see you already knew that.

 

[eclipsenow]

You seem to have replied to me. Please use the "Reply" button to do so in the future.

It's not about "anti-bible sentiment" it is a simple result of biblical scholarship. Your problem is with them, not me. They love studying the bible, I found it boring and stopped reading somewhere after the exodus story.

The text that makes the description (the book of Exodus) is well understood by bible scholars to not have been written contemporanously with any proposed date for the exodus from Egypt.

As I understand it, the best evidence for the Isrealites being Canaanites is the earliest evidence for the Israelites in the Judean hills comes without out changes in the material culture. This indicates that the Israelite Yahweh religion was an indigenous religious movement of southern Caanan emerging out of the existing culture of Caanan.

Evidence?

What? I don't know what you're trying to say.

I'm saying imagine someone tried to tell today's Americans that they all came from South America. Don't believe anything you've heard or read about the British and George Washington etc - everyone came from South America. How would that go?

I can't make heads or tails of what you are trying to say here.

I'm saying that if you listened to the podcast you would see that Exodus has difficult historical clues in the text itself that gives it credibility. People were there, in a unique period, and saw unique things that disappeared later. But I'm in the middle of too many different online projects - and am meant to be finding a job - and so cannot re-listen to the whole podcast and list out the names and details for you. You could listen to one of the world's leading Egyptologists on exactly these matters - it's no secret that's where I learned this stuff. I'm not claiming to be an expert on this myself. Or not. I've given you the source - but right now I'm just in too deep with too many things.

Trump and the delusions of the alt-right - especially the 'Christian' alt-right - actually scare me at the moment. I'm not sure where America and the world are heading.

 

[stevevw]

The best way to understand the historical accuracy of the Exodus is to first look for the evidence on the ground that fits the narrative. Forget about the timelines for a moment and look for the evidence of proto Isrealites in Egypt, around the time they went to Egypt during the famine in Canaan. Look for evidence of Hebrew practices, text on descriptions of the Semites who lived in Egypt from the Egyptians and other historians.

We can find all the elements of the Exodus in non biblical writings, and archeology that pretty well aligns with all the narrative of the Exodus with recent discoveries. We can trace the departure, the possible stay over campsites along the way and the Isrealites entering Canaan. The 10 plagues from the Egyptians perspective, tombs of prominent Semites who match biblical figures like Joseph, place names that use the names of prominent Hebrews, temples, alters, pottery, architecture ect.

I won't go into the evidence as that will take some effort and I am not up to it at the moment. But mainly as to what others think. As I know the orthodox and mainstream belief about the Exodus and the timeline is disputed.

So it all depends on when and where you look. Thats why I think finding the mnatching evidence on the ground first is best as there may be missing info or assumptions about the timeline that may be wrong.

When you view the Exodus this way the evidence starts to come out and make historical sense in how its not only about the Isrealiites but the footprint that leaves on the surrounding cultures and especially the Egyptians. Suddenly they becomes witness to the Exodus from another perspective and in doing so add support to the biblical narrative.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Evidence?

The archeological evidence of the oldest identifiable Israelite sites and the material continuity with prior occupants. To rephrase, when the first peoples that are Israelites appear in the archeological record the culture in those sites does not change. This indicates that at least these people became Israelites with out moving in. If there are earlier Israelites tha do move in (and the current earliest known are just converts) then there is no archeological record of them.

I'm saying imagine someone tried to tell today's Americans that they all came from South America. Don't believe anything you've heard or read about the British and George Washington etc - everyone came from South America. How would that go?

This is extremely silly. We have gobs of records of english settlers in North America from 1600-1800. We have documents written in George Washington's own hand.

I'm saying that if you listened to the podcast you would see that Exodus has difficult historical clues in the text itself that gives it credibility.

what pod cast?

People were there, in a unique period, and saw unique things that disappeared later. But I'm in the middle of too many different online projects - and am meant to be finding a job - and so cannot re-listen to the whole podcast and list out the names and details for you.

So you want me to do it for you then? This is your argument.

You could listen to one of the world's leading Egyptologists on exactly these matters - it's no secret that's where I learned this stuff. I'm not claiming to be an expert on this myself. Or not. I've given you the source - but right now I'm just in too deep with too many things.

Top men, you say, top men. I don't recall reading the names of any famous Egyptologists in this thread.

Trump and the delusions of the alt-right - especially the 'Christian' alt-right - actually scare me at the moment. I'm not sure where America and the world are heading.

Not sure how this is relevant to exodus.

 

[Hans Blaster]

The best way to understand the historical accuracy of the Exodus is to first look for the evidence on the ground that fits the narrative. Forget about the timelines for a moment and look for the evidence of proto Isrealites in Egypt, around the time they went to Egypt during the famine in Canaan. Look for evidence of Hebrew practices, text on descriptions of the Semites who lived in Egypt from the Egyptians and other historians.

That's certainly a viable path. When they look in the Delta they do find Semitic cultural artifacts including evidence of worship of Baal, Hadad, and Asherah. Do we se evidence of the Israelite religion in Egypt?

We can find all the elements of the Exodus in non biblical writings, and archeology that pretty well aligns with all the narrative of the Exodus with recent discoveries.

Which recent discoveries do you have in mind?

We can trace the departure, the possible stay over campsites along the way and the Isrealites entering Canaan.

How many people are traced in this departure?

The 10 plagues from the Egyptians perspective, tombs of prominent Semites who match biblical figures like Joseph, place names that use the names of prominent Hebrews, temples, alters, pottery, architecture ect.

There is? I've seen a lot of people try to back the exodus claim and when they get to this part the connections always seem a bit thin and stretched.

I won't go into the evidence as that will take some effort and I am not up to it at the moment. But mainly as to what others think. As I know the orthodox and mainstream belief about the Exodus and the timeline is disputed.

Which "mainstream" or "orthodox" are you talking about? Religion? Biblical studies? Archeology and Egyptology?

So it all depends on when and where you look. Thats why I think finding the mnatching evidence on the ground first is best as there may be missing info or assumptions about the timeline that may be wrong.

When you view the Exodus this way the evidence starts to come out and make historical sense in how its not only about the Isrealiites but the footprint that leaves on the surrounding cultures and especially the Egyptians. Suddenly they becomes witness to the Exodus from another perspective and in doing so add support to the biblical narrative.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

You just slipped in one of the anti-bible sentiments....
"plenty of textual evidence that they weren't even written for several centuries"

In the secular historical world, it's now almost dogma that Israel never came from Egypt but from Canaan itself. That this whole Exodus thing is some kind of salvation story imbued into their culture. (Good luck defending that hypothesis! When does some sort of priest stand up and declare that a people are not actually from there? How does that work when people told stories about their grandparents doings etc. EG: The Australian aboriginals are profoundly connected to place and tell stories going back generations and generations about belonging in place. How does this myth get pushed on people? That boggles the mind more than the Exodus story!)

But the problem is, these stories involve Israelites with subtle Egyptian influences on their names, and accurate descriptions of the adoption practices of being raised in the royal creche - a kind of training ground that looked good on any future leader of Egypt's CV!

There are also special geographic descriptions in the text that betray local knowledge of the times and places because they then quickly changed a generation later. The Nile shifted and so a town had to move! It betrayed eyewitness testimony.

Finally - regarding the lack of evidence today? Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The Israelites were living in an area that is now largely under water or boggy. (That shifting Nile hey?) Any papyrus evidence rotted away. Skip across to the bible lands - and that the dead sea scrolls survived was testimony to the dry climate and caves they were placed in. It's amazing that we know anything about the ancient world - given the amount of cultural evidence lost to war, fire, decay, and time.

We have the internal textual evidence of the bible - not just the narrative (that the sceptic will never go along with) but the sneaky names and geographic evidence. In Egypt we have paintings of Semites on temple walls, other descriptions of the royal creche training and education practices. But the modern Egyptologist who is not acquainted with the bible at all just gets dogmatic about 'peer-reviewed consensus' that Israel was never even in Egypt. They haven't studied the bible itself for hints that might actually stand out to them like neon lights - yet declare what they 'know'.

Well, Professor James Hoffmeier is a professional Egyptologist who also - unlike them - knows a thing or two about the bible. So he's a biblical maximalist.

I think it's enough to simply cite Professor James Hoffmeier as a professional Egyptologist rather than a "famous" one. We don't want to try to oversell a person's contributions to any one field of science. It's enough for them to be noticed as being qualified (which is difficult to get people to recognize these days because there's so much in the way of pseudo-science being asserted).

As for Egyptology, I'm looking forward to seeing what they dig out of Avaris in the future since only about 15% or so of it has been dug up, from what I understand.

 

[eclipsenow]

The archeological evidence of the oldest identifiable Israelite sites and the material continuity with prior occupants. To rephrase, when the first peoples that are Israelites appear in the archeological record the culture in those sites does not change. This indicates that at least these people became Israelites with out moving in. If there are earlier Israelites tha do move in (and the current earliest known are just converts) then there is no archeological record of them.

Again - this is not really my area - but I thought the sites did change? Does not the archaeology of Jericho show that it was burned down a few times before the Babylonians and Persians also had a go?

This is extremely silly. We have gobs of records of english settlers in North America from 1600-1800. We have documents written in George Washington's own hand.

OK! Now we're on the same page. (Apologies for my poor writing a few posts back - life's a bit overwhelming at the moment.)

That's what I'm getting at.

I'm trying to go back 3000 years and imagine Hebrew culture developing in the Canaanite lands - as the biblical minimalists see it. How did the first Yahwist priests get up one day and decide "Hey, let's all pretend we were rescued from a land we barely know anything about and have never been to? Wouldn't that be cool? Let's have a Hebrew saviour figure raised in the Royal Creche - we'll give him an Egyptian sounding name as well. We'll have him lead our forefathers out of Egypt with a bunch of miracles from Yahweh. We'll use this story to show our God is so much better than all those Egyptian gods. And we'll also have many of our people renamed in the Egyptian fashion as if we'd lived there 400 years and adopted a little of the culture. Now - we need a few spies to go down and investigate some of those changing, local Egyptian cities - because being desert dwellers - we know ALL about how the Nile can move and force them to move a city every few generations. Gotta have them geographic details! Or sceptical archaeologists in 3000 years might never buy it! They might not buy it anyway - but we've got to try...."

(Have I overdone it? Not being sarcastic at you - just the scenario.)

Except - how does that go over with the first generation that hears this nonsense? They're Hebrews, a bit like Hobbits in how obsessed they are with family trees and history etc. They know where their great-great-grandparents are buried! In this biblical minimalist scenario where they developed in Canaan - they know they didn't suddenly pop out of Egypt.

what pod cast?

Dr John Dickson asks Professor James Hoffmeier questions with John's sceptical audience in mind.
Mate - pretty much with Hans Blaster in mind. (And as John is a historian he'd love your profile image.)
Give it a go? It's not your typical church podcast with low production values and way too many over-the-top claims.

This instead has great production values, and feels like it has more academic rigour. EG: Hoffmeier does not try and redate the entire Egyptian timeline like David Rohl to magic evidence into being. EG: Unlike post 35 - Hoffmeier does not say we can find Israel itself mentioned in Egypt other than the Merpentan stele.

But he shows how various events that appear in Egyptian history are consistent with a small band of Hebrew Semites having been there. (As "Semites" generally - much in the same way white Australian's might refer to someone as 'aboriginal' without knowing what exactly which first nation they belonged to.) Where he can truly specialise - as both an Egyptologist and biblical historian - are those tricky little eyewitness details captured in the text of Exodus.

Even if you ultimately disagree - if you're interested in this topic - it's worth hearing what the other side have to say and testing the credibility of this podcast.

The Exodus

Undeceptions Episode 46: The parting of the red sea in Exodus is legendary today and most people treat it as just that, legend. Is it though?

undeceptions.com

 

[Maori Aussie]

That's certainly a viable path. When they look in the Delta they do find Semitic cultural artifacts including evidence of worship of Baal, Hadad, and Asherah. Do we se evidence of the Israelite religion in Egypt?

You just described religion in ancient Israel up until a much later period. The Prophets later certainly rail against the worship of Baal and Asherah in Israel. Moses condemns the worship of the Bull (Apis?) by the Israelites. Stephen in Acts adds the "Star of Rifan" and Moloch as objects of earlier Israelite worship during the Exodus.