(Short Clip) Elon Musk On Joe Rogan's Podcast, Its Gonna Get Me Killed!

[BPPLEE]

Not sure where you are getting these numbers - I tried to access the link but was told I needed an account. We need to see the actual poll question.

From the Guardian:

“Sixty per cent of voters disapprove of the way Elon Musk and … Doge are dealing with workers employed by the federal government, while 36% approve,” Quinnipiac said.

While the question in this poll may be slightly different, it shows that almost twice as many people disapprove of what Musk is doing to federal employees compared to how many approve.

But here is the main point: let's say that a majority of likely voters do indeed support what Musk is doing. How is that relevant? The real question is not what people think but what is actually the case.

Then we need to disregard all polls in that case. The only problem is who is going to be the judge?

 

[Always in His Presence]

Not sure where you are getting these numbers

I linked it and then quoted it -

 

[expos4ever]

The "forced annexation" of Canada = saying you want to annex Canada..???

...It's a flawed argument, but I don't expect to change your mind.

I have no idea what you are saying here.

The argument is simply this. If it is flawed, as you are saying, you should surely be able to point out precisely where the flaw is. I will make it really easy for you. Simply point out the point (or points) at which the following argument is flawed:

1. Premise: only a bad person would promote or support the forced annexation of a free and sovereign nation against the will of its people
2. Fact: Donald Trump and some of his supporters do precisely this,
3. Conclusion: Donald Trump and those who support him in the push to forcibly annex Canada are fundamentally bad human beings.

There you go - have at it: point out where this argument fails.

 

[expos4ever]

Then we need to disregard all polls in that case. The only problem is who is going to be the judge?

My point is that what people believe to be the case about something may not accurately reflect what is factually the case about that same thing.

In this instance, it could certainly be the case that Republicans might believe DOGE is doing a good thing when it could objectively be the case that DOGE is visiting great harm.

Truth is independent of views about the truth.

 

[Always in His Presence]

OHHH! Can I do it again - this is getting to be fun!

The argument is simply this. If it is flawed, as you are saying, you should surely be able to point out precisely where the flaw is. I will make it really easy for you. Simply point out the point (or points) at which the following argument is flawed:

You really do make it easy - thanks!

1. Premise: only a bad person would promote or support the forced annexation of a free and sovereign nation against the will of its people

The Premise is flawed because there is no one promoting the forced annexation of a free and sovereign nation - it is found no where factually or in reality. The lack of reality makes it flawed by design.

2. Fact: Donald Trump and some of his supporters do precisely this,

False: Stating so would be an act of war - him merely mentioning them becoming the 51st state does not rise to the level of an act of war. Nor are there any threats for a forceful take over. That is not reality and makes the statement flawed.

3. Conclusion: Donald Trump and those who support him in the push to forcibly annex Canada are fundamentally bad human beings.

Because points one and two are incurably flawed - the conclusion is also.

There you go - have at it: point out where this argument fails.

There ya go - that was easy.

 

[BPPLEE]

My point is that what people believe to be the case about something may not accurately reflect what is factually the case about that same thing.

In this instance, it could certainly be the case that Republicans might believe DOGE is doing a good thing when it could objectively be the case that DOGE is visiting great harm.

Truth is independent of views about the truth.

It could be but who is going to make that judgement?

 

[expos4ever]

Let's talk about post 118 where we see photos of prominent Democrats with arms extended in what, without context, could certainly seem like a Nazi salute. Here is an example from that post:

The obvious intent is to respond to my claim that Elon Musk gave a Nazi salute.

To the uncritical eye, it would seem that if I am to accuse Musk of performing a Nazi salute, I need to accuse Kamala Harris et al of doing the same.

This is, however profoundly misleading. Here is the clip of Musk's salute:

The relevant bit is about 5 seconds in - note the dynamics of the salute itself, how the arm moves and the expression on Musk's face. And, remember, Musk recently endorsed the far-right AFD party in Germany

Here is a still from that same video:

Now here is the clip in which it is implied that Kamala Harris gives what could be understood as a Nazi salute - see the last 20 seconds or so:

Clearly the poster who is implicitly drawing an equivalence between the gesture of Musk and the gesture of Harris has been duped by propaganda - the two are not remotely the same when you see the big picture.

 

[expos4ever]

The Premise is flawed because there is no one promoting the forced annexation of a free and sovereign nation - it is found no where factually or in reality. The lack of reality makes it flawed by design.

Donald Trump has repeatedly stated in writing and verbally about having Canada become the 51st state. You cannot be taken seriously if you deny this. And here it is beyond clear that he sees the tariffs as part of the "incentive" to achieve this. From The Guardian:

The US president, Donald Trump, has again suggested that Canada become the 51st state of the US during a press conference outside the White House with Elon Musk. Appearing to pitch the perks of joining the US, Trump claimed that Canada was highly taxed and that the US had comparatively low tax. He argued that such an arrangement would also solve the 'tariff problem'.

So where are we? Well, no reasonable person would deny that Trump is using tariff pressure to move toward annexing Canada.

Do Canadians want this? No, we most certainly do not. A December 2024 poll shows 82% are opposed to becoming the 51st state.

So (a) Trump has repeatedly and clearly stated that he wants to annex Canada; (b) it is clear from the quote above the he is using economic pressure to do this; and (c) it is clear Canadians do not want to become state 51.

So I will slightly adjust my wording to sat that "Donald Trump and some of supporters are promoting the use of economic pressure to annex a free and sovereign nation against the will of its people". That still makes him, and those who support him in this, bad people.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Donald Trump has repeatedly stated in writing and verbally about having Canada become the 51st state. You cannot be taken seriously if you deny this. And here it is beyond clear that he sees the tariffs as part of the "incentive" to achieve this. From The Guardian:

The US president, Donald Trump, has again suggested that Canada become the 51st state of the US during a press conference outside the White House with Elon Musk. Appearing to pitch the perks of joining the US, Trump claimed that Canada was highly taxed and that the US had comparatively low tax. He argued that such an arrangement would also solve the 'tariff problem'.

Suggesting is not taking a country by force - militarily nor economically.

I'm sorry your economy is so weak - but so is your position.

 

[expos4ever]

Suggesting is not taking a country by force - militarily nor economically.

I'm sorry your economy is so weak - but so is your position.

You are playing word games. If Trumps "suggests" Canada join the USA against the will of its people and exerts severe economic pressure on us to do so, then Trump is a bad person.

As are those who support him in this imperialist madness.

And from NBC News (and confirmed from other sources):

Trump has been unapologetic in his quest to conquer the Canadians — an effort he said in January would be conducted by “economic force.”

There you have it - Donald Trump has explicitly stated he would use "economic force" to annex Canada.

 

[Always in His Presence]

You are playing word games. If Trumps "suggests" Canada join the USA against the will of its people and exerts severe economic pressure on us to do so, then Trump is a bad person.

As are those who support him in this imperialist madness.

And from NBC News:

Trump has been unapologetic in his quest to conquer the Canadians — an effort he said in January would be conducted by “economic force.”

There you have it - unless NBC is lying, and if they are I will retract this quote - Donald Trump has explicitly stated he would use "economic force" to annex Canada.

I'm not the one playing word games. - NBS is not lying - they are giving their skewed opinion. Their opinion and 3.00 with get you a Starbucks coffee. - 4.35 in Canada

And it is my opinion you are grasping at straws to make a point.

 

[expos4ever]

I'm not the one playing word games. - NBS is not lying - they are giving their skewed opinion. Their opinion and 3.00 with get you a Starbucks coffee. - 4.35 in Canada

And it is my opinion you are grasping at straws to make a point.

NBS is not giving an opinion - they are quoting Donald Trump's very words. To wit (see the part from about 25 to 30 seconds) in

There is no wiggle room for you.

Donald Trump is advocating the use of economic force to annex a free and sovereign nation against the will of its people.

Dance all you want - this is a fact.

 

[expos4ever]

While we are on the topic of whether Mr. Trump is a fundamentally bad person, here is one of his tweets from December 2023 (I added the bolding):

Merry Christmas to all, including Crooked Joe Biden’s ONLY HOPE, Deranged Jack Smith, the out of control Lunatic who just hired outside attorneys, fresh from the SWAMP (unprecedented!), to help him with his poorly executed WITCH HUNT against “TRUMP” and “MAGA.” Included also are World Leaders, both good and bad, but none of which are as evil and “sick” as the THUGS we have inside our Country who, with their Open Borders, INFLATION, Afghanistan Surrender, Green New Scam, High Taxes, No Energy Independence, Woke Military, Russia/Ukraine, Israel/Iran, All Electric Car Lunacy, and so much more, are looking to destroy our once great USA. MAY THEY ROT IN HELL. AGAIN, MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Ah, can you not feel the warmth and generosity of a fine human being?

Trump is a bad person - the evidence is overwhelming.

 

[BPPLEE]

While we are on the topic of whether Mr. Trump is a fundamentally bad person, here is one of his tweets from December 2023 (I added the bolding):

Merry Christmas to all, including Crooked Joe Biden’s ONLY HOPE, Deranged Jack Smith, the out of control Lunatic who just hired outside attorneys, fresh from the SWAMP (unprecedented!), to help him with his poorly executed WITCH HUNT against “TRUMP” and “MAGA.” Included also are World Leaders, both good and bad, but none of which are as evil and “sick” as the THUGS we have inside our Country who, with their Open Borders, INFLATION, Afghanistan Surrender, Green New Scam, High Taxes, No Energy Independence, Woke Military, Russia/Ukraine, Israel/Iran, All Electric Car Lunacy, and so much more, are looking to destroy our once great USA. MAY THEY ROT IN HELL. AGAIN, MERRY CHRISTMAS!

Ah, can you not feel the warmth and generosity of a fine human being?

Trump is a bad person - the evidence is overwhelming.

I would argue that a president who deceives the public about his mental capacity is a bad person and all who participated in the cover up, including staff, Democrats and media figures are also bad people if I was taking your claim seriously. It’s best to follow the Bible and judge not lest we be judged

 

[7thKeeper]

You were saying?

On this, it's incredibly dishonest to try to equate this with Musk. You showed us still pictures. Care to post the videos of those instances? I doubt you would, because it would show how incredibly dishonest this was. It's like the picture equivalent of quote mining. We've seen in motion what Musk did, so we know exactly what that looked like. But I doubt you'll show the full clips of the instances of, for example, people just waving with a still taken of those to try to make it seem like it's the same.

Shame on you.

 

[expos4ever]

I would argue that a president who deceives the public about his mental capacity is a bad person and all who participated in the cover up, including staff, Democrats and media figures are also bad people if I was taking your claim seriously.

Fine, but not relevant to my point.

I was making a judgment about Donald Trump and some of his followers and no one else.

I understand why you and others use this "what about X" strategy - I have used it myself.

But it is more than telling that no one has actually mounted an argument that one could believe it is acceptable to forcibly annex a free and sovereign nation against the will of its people and not be a bad person.

And I suggest we all know why - there is no credible way to argue that a person who believes this is not fundamentally bad.

It’s best to follow the Bible and judge not lest we be judged

I am not exactly sure how to read that famous Biblical text but of one thing I am confident: it cannot be telling us to suspend appropriate evidentially supported negative judgments about character precisely because the world be even more chaotic than it is if were to take this Biblical admonition as seriously as you seem to be suggested we should.

After all, I submit that part of the reason why Trump is wreaking such damage is because voters are not making enough judgments about character.

 

[BPPLEE]

Fine, but not relevant to my point.

I was making a judgment about Donald Trump and some of his followers and no one else.

I understand why you and others use this "what about X" strategy - I have used it myself.

But it is more than telling that no one has actually mounted an argument that one could believe it is acceptable to forcibly annex a free and sovereign nation against the will of its people and not be a bad person.

And I suggest we all know why - there is no credible way to argue that a person who believes this is not fundamentally bad.

I am not exactly sure how to read that famous Biblical text but of one thing I am confident: it cannot be telling us to suspend appropriate evidentially supported negative judgments about character precisely because the world be even more chaotic than it is if were to take this Biblical admonition as seriously as you seem to be suggested we should.

After all, I submit that part of the reason why Trump is wreaking such damage is because voters are not making enough judgments about character.

Making Canada another state would be incredibly stupid because it would most likely be a blue state and sway the presidential election towards Democrats. If you want to make the case that it’s stupid, okay but can this in itself make someone a bad person?
It’s possible to judge and condemn what a person does without making the judgement that the person is inherently bad. Sometimes even good people do bad things and vice versa

 

[Always in His Presence]

On this, it's incredibly dishonest to try to equate this with Musk. You showed us still pictures. Care to post the videos of those instances? I doubt you would, because it would show how incredibly dishonest this was. It's like the picture equivalent of quote mining. We've seen in motion what Musk did, so we know exactly what that looked like. But I doubt you'll show the full clips of the instances of, for example, people just waving with a still taken of those to try to make it seem like it's the same.

Shame on you.

Hogwash. Did he click his heals and snap to attention as in the salute? No, he tapped his heart and lifted his hand and said - my heart goes out to you.

I takes a special kind of bias to turn a heart felt thank you into a Nazi salute.

Careful, your desperation is showing. and IMHO - you just lost all credibility.

 

[expos4ever]

Hogwash. Did he click his heals and snap to attention as in the salute? No, he tapped his heart and lifted his hand and said - my heart goes out to you.

Again, you are selectively filtering. Lest readers be duped, below is a still from this "salute". Look at the man's face - is that a "my heart goes out to you" expression as you are suggesting? Or is it more of a "let's stick it to our enemies" expression?

We all know the answer - the human face tells a million tales.

Look, I cannot say for sure that this was a Nazi salute. But it is misleading to suggest that the other "salutes" you showed from Harris, Sanders, etc. are equally suggestive of a Nazi salute.

With Musk, we do not only have the nasty grimace (see below) that strongly suggests contempt, we have all sorts of other reasons - not least his endorsement of a far-right party in Germany and his related, at least somewhat suspicious statement that "we should get past Nazi guilt" (perhaps those were not his exact words but I suggest they are close enough).

But, to be fair, yes, this is not a Nazi salute "beyond a reasonable doubt". But, in a way, it does not matter - there are plenty of unambiguous reasons to be skeptical about Musk's character - for example, his moronic tweet that "Canada is not a real country", his outrageous labelling of war veteran Mark Kelly as a "traitor", and his infantile wielding of a chainsaw showing a complete lack of empathy for all the people he and his gang of young minions were about to put out of work.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Again, you are selectively filtering. Lest readers be duped, below is a still from this "salute". Look at the man's face - is that a "my heart goes out to you" expression as you are suggesting? Or is it more of a "let's stick it to our enemies" expression?

I’m not clairvoyant are you?. I could only judge the man by his words.

He comes out on stage and says how great of victory it is touches his heart raises his hand and says my heart goes out to you.



You’re grasping at straws and in my personal opinion, your argument has lost all credibility