Trump, Vance and Zelenskyy spar over Russian war in tense exchange at White House

[trophy33]

why not engage what I've said?

Because you say nonsense.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Because you say nonsense.

A repeated claim without reason behind it. Why do you think it's in the interest of the USA to bind itself forever with Europe? You've only given economic reasons. You haven't given military or security reasons any concern whatsoever. Why does it benefit the USA to focus on two fronts of Asia and Europe when it's capacity is clearly limited? When debt and spending at levels no one ever fought possible?

I can see why you as a European want that American security, because you're weak and insecure in your continent. But from my perspective it just doesn't benefit the USA to be perpetually tied to Europe, especially as Europe becomes less Christian and less European.

 

[trophy33]

Why do you think it's in the interest of the USA to bind itself forever with Europe?

Who told you I think so?

You've only given economic reasons.

Actually, no, I did not give economic reasons for this.

Why does it benefit the USA to focus on two fronts of Asia and Europe when it's capacity is clearly limited? When debt and spending at levels no one ever fought possible?

Why do you ask me, ask the USA.

I can see why you as a European want that American security, because you're weak and insecure in your continent. But from my perspective it just doesn't benefit the USA to be perpetually tied to Europe, especially as Europe becomes less Christian and less European.

Good to know you opinion.

Are you pro-Russia? I wonder why would somebody try to break the US-EU alliance.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Who told you I think so?


Actually, no, I did not give economic reasons for this.


Why do you ask me, ask the USA.

I have thought about it from the USA's perspective and to me it's due to having to focus on Asia that the USA wants to commit less to Europe and Trump also likely hopes to pull Russia away from China. Russia and China together is a geopolitical mistake from the perspective of the USA and just makes countering China all the more harder.

Good to know you opinion.

Again, no engagement. Just tutt tutting and finger wagging.

Are you pro-Russian?

I sympathize with Russia in this conflict and can see how the conflict arose (mostly due to the USA seeking to pull Ukraine into NATO). I wouldn't say I'm pro Russian though.

 

[trophy33]

I sympathize with Russia in this conflict

OK, now I see your motivation and why you talk so much nonsense, you probably got it from some Russian sources.

Good night.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

OK, now I see your motivation and why you talk so much nonsense, you probably got it from some Russian sources.

Good night.

Nope. My sources are men like Mearsheimer who I think make a pretty convincing case. But anyone who dissents from establishment propaganda is called a Russian shill anyway, so there's no point discussing this with fanatics such as yourself. Let me ask you, do you want Ukraine to fight until it achieves total victory?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I sympathize with Russia in this conflict and can see how the conflict arose (mostly due to the USA seeking to pull Ukraine into NATO). I wouldn't say I'm pro Russian though.

Why not? That is at the heart of the entire conflict. Is it democracy v plutocracy or oligarchy or whatever you want to call the Russian system?

It certainly seems to be a clash of world views and governance competing for world dominance.

Should Russia be contained? stopped?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Why not? That is at the heart of the entire conflict. Is it democracy v plutocracy or oligarchy or whatever you want to call the Russian system?

It certainly seems to be a clash of world views and governance competing for world dominance.

Should Russia be contained? stopped?

Democracy as represented by the EU and the US establishment is not something I am committed to. Why should I support a total war with Russia to contain them when Russia has no impact on me or my own? Why not live in a world where there are different systems or must there be endless crusades to expand the Godless western liberal democratic system everywhere on earth? Were you not satisfied with the crusades for democracy in the Middle East, now you want a total war with Russia? Haven't we learned the folly of regime change in the last 20 years? That the Neocons in attempting to maintain US hegemon only weakened the USA?

 

[chevyontheriver]

Why not? That is at the heart of the entire conflict. Is it democracy v plutocracy or oligarchy or whatever you want to call the Russian system?

It certainly seems to be a clash of world views and governance competing for world dominance.

Should Russia be contained? stopped?

Are you suggesting we escalate to thermonuclear war? Or just maintain the status quo of destruction in Ukraine?

In just war theory if one cannot win a justly started war using just tactics one must sue for peace.

 

[sanderabeer]

Well why should the USA garuntee Europe's security at its own expense?

I don't know what you mean by "at its own expense." But, a secure, stable Europe is good for the US and the world.

 

[sanderabeer]

Are you suggesting we escalate to thermonuclear war? Or just maintain the status quo of destruction in Ukraine?

This is a false dilemma. There are a multitude of options beyond these.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

I don't know what you mean by "at its own expense." But, a secure, stable Europe is good for the US and the world.

Given the decline and weakness of Europe that would not appear true. Europe would better off handling its own security.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

This is a false dilemma. There are a multitude of options beyond these.

Such as?

 

[sanderabeer]

Such as?

Russia can pull out. China can stop supporting Russia. Sanctions. Etc.

 

[sanderabeer]

Given the decline and weakness of Europe that would not appear true. Europe would better off handling its own security.

Would you expand on this? What do you mean by "decline and weakness of Europe?" And how would Europe handling "its own security" make matters better for the US and the world?

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Russia can pull out. China can stop supporting Russia. Sanctions. Etc.

Oh so, magical thinking will solve the war. Putin is just gonna feel really guilty one day and pull out huh? It's hard to believe people actually think like this.

 

[sanderabeer]

Oh so, magical thinking will solve the war. Putin is just gonna feel really guilty one day and pull out huh? It's hard to believe people actually think like this.

This is a disappointing response. I hoped to engage further on the matter, but it seems that's not an option. Have a blessed day.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

This is a disappointing response. I hoped to engage further on the matter, but it seems that's not an option. Have a blessed day.

Your plan is for Putin to change his mind. That's not a plan. It's wishful thinking. Russia has made it clear that this issue to them is existential. Why would Putin just up and leave? Why would China betray Russia?

 

[rebornfree]

I don't think Trump looked bad at all. He was honest with Zelensky and it was Zelensky who began yelling at Trump and Vance.

Trump, after commenting on Zelensky's clothes which was bad mannered, told him that his country is in trouble. Can you imagine how that must have felt coming from someone in a comfortable office, on a different continent, when he (Z) has the weight of his country trying to stave off Russian aggression, with people dying and homes and infrastructure being destroyed, on his shoulders. I felt that was arrogant and insensitive of Trump. I can't imagine that Zelensky hasn't thanked the USA for support, but for Vance to point out that Z was being ungrateful, in front of the cameras, was rude and when Z started to answer, Trump overtalked him. It was very distressing to watch. As for having an ocean between them and the war, it is true and the USA may feel anxious if Russia threatens them. I'm reposting my previous analogy:

Actually I thought it was a valid comment. If any of us lived near a river, which was at risk of flooding, and we said to our friends, who live further away, that they would feel anxious if they were nearer to it, is that unreasonable? I think that's all Zelensky was saying.

There are also full transcripts, word for word to be read. If Trump’s in it, nothing is going to be satisfactory. People seem to feed off it.

True for some perhaps, but not for all. The opposite is sometimes true too it seems. If Trump is in it, it must be good. I like some of Trump's views: pro-life, anti-transgender etc. but I don't comment on your domestic policies because I'm not American. As I posted, before he was elected, what happens on the world stage affects us all and that is where my concern is.

My wife and I prayed this morning.

We bipassed our “leaders” and went straight to God. We asked him for the right thing to prevail.

I recommend everyone do the same.

Yes, that is what we should be doing and the Lord can sort it out.

Anyway. It is over. Let's move on. Zelensky told by NATO Mark Rutte, as distasteful as it is, he needs the United State and therefor must stroke Trumps ego, tell him how great he is and how thankful. And, I think, ultimately accept whatever deal is offered no matter how bad. This is what we should have expected from Trump and Vance. This is what we elected. While some of us are appalled others are proud of it.

I felt a bit sorry for Mark Rutte as he has to tread a careful line, but seems to be doing it well. It was great to see Zelensky warmly welcomed by all the people at the summit today; good to see a smile on his face and I'm glad that he obviously feels that he has friends (in the diplomatic sense of the word).

You can guarantee nothing. I live in the center of Europe. Enough of this nonsense.

I noticed that you are in the EU. I'm in the UK. Maybe we feel sympathy with Zelensky more because Ukraine is on our continent.

 

[rebornfree]

Europe has embarked on a course of multiculturalism and multiethnic immigration. Europeans are not replacing themselves and Christianity is in decline on the continent.

In Britain (and I suspect it is the same for some other European countries) we became multicultural in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries when we started to create an empire. Great to take the gospel to other parts of the world, but not so great to rule other people in their own countries. However that gave those people British nationality and they have every right to be here. In fact it seems strange today to even comment about multiethnicity. We are all people and Brits (and I imagine the citizens of all European countries) are multi-ethnic. It's not something we think about unless there is a problem and the problems we have had are from the extreme right white groups. My only concern with migration is that it is legal and the country receiving immigrants can sustain the numbers.

As for Christianity, church going has declined, even in my lifetime (seventy + years), but I doubt that the number of born-again believers has. In fact I think that the Pentecostal denominations are growing and some of the liveliest churches come from African and Caribbean cultures. They taught us something about worship. Other religions are in a minority and seem to understand our desire to worship and serve our God. The people most against Christianity are atheists and I think the rise of that is due to the Theory of Evolution, the idea of the Big Bang and the rhetoric that it is somehow weak to believe in God.