Spanish Inquisiton

[boughtwithaprice]

Another member expressed a desire to discuss the inquisition. That is a broad topic spanning hundreds of years. I will limit this thread to the most notorious of the Inquisitions, the Spanish Inquisition. This is a sore subject with the potential for elevated emotions. I want to limit the discussion to facts, not accusations.

If a post is made with an accusation that is not backed up by facts, I ask the moderators to remove the post, yet not give any penalty to the poster. If an accusation is made backed up by facts, not hearsay, then I ask the moderators to allow us to discuss it.

Hearsay is a legal term for just repeating what someone else had said. Such a post would something like I read this guy said this about the inquisition or I believe this about the inquisition
I will ask what are your sources? And we can evaluate them.

What I have found was that the inquisition was aimed at those that falsely claimed to be Catholic, yet retained their old religion and were seeking to subvert the Church. It was not aimed at those that professed to be Jews, Moslems or Protestants, only those that attempted to infiltrate the Church through falsehood.

Here is what I found so far:


The Spanish Inquisition, established in 1478, was a religious tribunal aimed at combating heresy within the Catholic Church, primarily targeting individuals suspected of practicing crypto-Judaism (secretly practicing Judaism while outwardly converting to Catholicism), and to a lesser extent, other forms of religious deviation; while often associated with extreme brutality and torture, modern research indicates that while executions did occur, the number was likely significantly lower than popular perception, with the majority of cases resulting in fines or public penance, and the Inquisition's focus was more on surveillance and social control than widespread persecution of the general population.

Key points about the Spanish Inquisition:

• Focus on Crypto-Jews:
  The primary target of the Inquisition was "conversos," individuals of Jewish descent who had nominally converted to Catholicism but were suspected of still practicing Jewish rituals in secret.
  
  
• Secret Denunciations:
  Accusations against individuals were often made anonymously, which contributed to a climate of fear and suspicion.
  
  
• Complex Trial Process:
  Trials involved lengthy interrogations, sometimes including torture, to extract confessions, although the use of torture was supposed to be carefully regulated and was not always applied.
  
  
• Penalties:
  Depending on the severity of the offense, penalties could range from public penance, confiscation of property, exile, to execution by burning at the stake.
  
  
• Social Impact:
  The Inquisition had a significant impact on Spanish society, creating a climate of distrust and fear, particularly among "conversos" who were constantly under suspicion.
  
  
• Exaggerated Popular Perception:
  While the brutality of the Inquisition is often exaggerated in popular culture, it is important to note that the number of executions was likely much lower than commonly believed.
  

Important Considerations:

• Historical Context:
  The Inquisition emerged during a time of intense religious fervor and political instability in Europe, where the Catholic Church was actively trying to consolidate its power.
  
  
• Varying Severity:
  The intensity and methods of the Inquisition varied across different regions of Spain and over time.
  
  
• Scholarly Debate:
  Historians continue to debate the exact scope and impact of the Spanish Inquisition, with ongoing research examining the nuances of its practices and the experiences of those affected.

 

[BeyondET]

Penalties:
Depending on the severity of the offense, penalties could range from public penance, confiscation of property, exile, to execution by burning at the stake.

Or the Spanish tickler

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Or the Spanish tickler

Ok, we have a accusation without objective facts
To what are you referring? Can you produce the documentation?

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Perfectly documented Satire.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

And all hope for a discussion is nearly gone.
Is this how you wish to play it? They mocked Jesus the same way. Laughed it up, put a purple robe on Him and a crown of thorns. They knelt in mockery, spit on Him and beat Him on the head.
Oh they thought they were so right. The Jewish leaders said he was an imposter, so they all mocked His majesty. Do you think it is fitting that you join in? Is it safe to mock what we do not understand?
You need to present evidence to make a charge
Your post has not done that

 

[JSRG]

Or the Spanish tickler

The "Spanish tickler" (an alleged torture device) appears to be a hoax, with all claims of it having been used coming well after the period in which it supposedly was used. Indeed, a whole lot of the medieval torture devices that get shown off in "torture museums" have no actual evidence they were ever used in the medieval period, or even used at all. Instead, they were made up only in the last few centuries (or in the case of the Spanish tickler, possibly the last several decades) for sensationalism.

 

[BeyondET]

The "Spanish tickler" (an alleged torture device) appears to be a hoax, with all claims of it having been used coming well after the period in which it supposedly was used. Indeed, a whole lot of the medieval torture devices that get shown off in "torture museums" have no actual evidence they were ever used in the medieval period, or even used at all. Instead, they were made up only in the last few centuries (or in the case of the Spanish tickler, possibly the last several decades) for sensationalism.

No where in the link you posted says anything about the cats paw aka Spanish tickler is a hoax. It's in the case you just make up stuff out of thin air.

 

[JSRG]

No where in the link you posted says anything about the cats paw aka Spanish tickler is a hoax. It's in the case you just make up stuff out of thin air.

The link I offered was more to talk about how a lot of these torture devices are false in general, but in retrospect should've talked a little more about the Spanish tickler itself. It seems the idea of it caught popularity due to being on Wikipedia (someone added it in 2005, though without real evidence it was ever used), but it was eventually removed from the site for lack of evidence and is now listed in its list of hoaxes that the site incorrectly gave credence to. As is explained in the removal:

I can't find the slightest indication in a reliable source that either Spanish Tickler or Cat's Paw is an actual term that was ever historically used to refer to any kind of torture device. Any and all book mentions of this supposed item come after 2005, when this very article was first created. Many of those are trivial mentions. Those which are not are either self-published (such as the Dictionary of Torture) or do not cite their own sources, such as The Wrong View of History).
Reliable books about the history of torture from before 2005 (such as The History of Torture and The Instruments of Torture) make no mention of this device by either name.
Searching on JSTOR turned up no results at all. GScholar had one paper on torture in Nigeria with a trivial mention of the Spanish Tickler as a supposedly common torture device, but that paper was published in 2015, again after the article was created.
The two "sources" in the article are unreliable, just as everything that was located on Google. In short (ok, maybe not), this article flunks WP:V badly.

This matches up very well with everything I can determine myself. No one seems capable of offering any evidence that the idea of this predates the 20th century, let alone goes all the way back to when it was supposedly being used. Much like the "iron maiden" (discussed again in the original link I offered), evidence is very much lacking that this was actually used, and most likely was just made up, probably for later sensationalism. Indeed, I can't help but notice that the sources that do claim the Spanish tickler was used (all doing so without actual evidence, of course, like an actual account of its usage from the time it was supposedly used, or even a citation of an actual scholarly work) also frequently claim the iron maiden was used, despite the major problems with that noted, casting even more doubt on their reliability.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

Yes, I started this thread to talk about evidence regarding the Spanish Inquisition. If it were so evil, there should be many easily verifiable historical sources to examine

What did we get? A completely erroneous satire that bore no resemblance to the actual inquisition and a false accusation of an alleged torture device. Seems like we have the false accusers of the first century, so eager for a conviction that they will say anything

Sounds like Psalm 2

The kings of the earth rise up and princes conspire together against the Lord and His anointed.

Why can’t we have a civilized discussion?

 

[The Liturgist]

I once determined that at most, the Spanish Inquisition killed 3,000 people, which is 3,000 too many, but the Aztec “Flower Wars”, a ceremonial ritual warfare for purposes of population control of rival cities, truly the stuff of nightmares, likely killed millions. The high end figure I saw was 40 million which if true would make it the worst genocide in recorded history.

 

[boughtwithaprice]

I once determined that at most, the Spanish Inquisition killed 3,000 people, which is 3,000 too many, but the Aztec “Flower Wars”, a ceremonial ritual warfare for purposes of population control of rival cities, truly the stuff of nightmares, likely killed millions. The high end figure I saw was 40 million which if true would make it the worst genocide in recorded history.

Not quite, I believe 20th century communism killed almost 100,000,000

 

[BeyondET]

The link I offered was more to talk about how a lot of these torture devices are false in general, but in retrospect should've talked a little more about the Spanish tickler itself. It seems the idea of it caught popularity due to being on Wikipedia (someone added it in 2005, though without real evidence it was ever used), but it was eventually removed from the site for lack of evidence and is now listed in its list of hoaxes that the site incorrectly gave credence to. As is explained in the removal:

I can't find the slightest indication in a reliable source that either Spanish Tickler or Cat's Paw is an actual term that was ever historically used to refer to any kind of torture device. Any and all book mentions of this supposed item come after 2005, when this very article was first created. Many of those are trivial mentions. Those which are not are either self-published (such as the Dictionary of Torture) or do not cite their own sources, such as The Wrong View of History).
Reliable books about the history of torture from before 2005 (such as The History of Torture and The Instruments of Torture) make no mention of this device by either name.
Searching on JSTOR turned up no results at all. GScholar had one paper on torture in Nigeria with a trivial mention of the Spanish Tickler as a supposedly common torture device, but that paper was published in 2015, again after the article was created.
The two "sources" in the article are unreliable, just as everything that was located on Google. In short (ok, maybe not), this article flunks WP:V badly.

This matches up very well with everything I can determine myself. No one seems capable of offering any evidence that the idea of this predates the 20th century, let alone goes all the way back to when it was supposedly being used. Much like the "iron maiden" (discussed again in the original link I offered), evidence is very much lacking that this was actually used, and most likely was just made up, probably for later sensationalism. Indeed, I can't help but notice that the sources that do claim the Spanish tickler was used (all doing so without actual evidence, of course, like an actual account of its usage from the time it was supposedly used, or even a citation of an actual scholarly work) also frequently claim the iron maiden was used, despite the major problems with that noted, casting even more doubt on their reliability.

There are old drawings of them and actual relics still around.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Another member expressed a desire to discuss the inquisition. That is a broad topic spanning hundreds of years. I will limit this thread to the most notorious of the Inquisitions, the Spanish Inquisition. This is a sore subject with the potential for elevated emotions. I want to limit the discussion to facts, not accusations.

If a post is made with an accusation that is not backed up by facts, I ask the moderators to remove the post, yet not give any penalty to the poster. If an accusation is made backed up by facts, not hearsay, then I ask the moderators to allow us to discuss it.

Hearsay is a legal term for just repeating what someone else had said. Such a post would something like I read this guy said this about the inquisition or I believe this about the inquisition
I will ask what are your sources? And we can evaluate them.

What I have found was that the inquisition was aimed at those that falsely claimed to be Catholic, yet retained their old religion and were seeking to subvert the Church. It was not aimed at those that professed to be Jews, Moslems or Protestants, only those that attempted to infiltrate the Church through falsehood.

Here is what I found so far:


The Spanish Inquisition, established in 1478, was a religious tribunal aimed at combating heresy within the Catholic Church, primarily targeting individuals suspected of practicing crypto-Judaism (secretly practicing Judaism while outwardly converting to Catholicism), and to a lesser extent, other forms of religious deviation; while often associated with extreme brutality and torture, modern research indicates that while executions did occur, the number was likely significantly lower than popular perception, with the majority of cases resulting in fines or public penance, and the Inquisition's focus was more on surveillance and social control than widespread persecution of the general population.

Key points about the Spanish Inquisition:

• Focus on Crypto-Jews:
  The primary target of the Inquisition was "conversos," individuals of Jewish descent who had nominally converted to Catholicism but were suspected of still practicing Jewish rituals in secret.
  
  
• Secret Denunciations:
  Accusations against individuals were often made anonymously, which contributed to a climate of fear and suspicion.
  
  
• Complex Trial Process:
  Trials involved lengthy interrogations, sometimes including torture, to extract confessions, although the use of torture was supposed to be carefully regulated and was not always applied.
  
  
• Penalties:
  Depending on the severity of the offense, penalties could range from public penance, confiscation of property, exile, to execution by burning at the stake.
  
  
• Social Impact:
  The Inquisition had a significant impact on Spanish society, creating a climate of distrust and fear, particularly among "conversos" who were constantly under suspicion.
  
  
• Exaggerated Popular Perception:
  While the brutality of the Inquisition is often exaggerated in popular culture, it is important to note that the number of executions was likely much lower than commonly believed.

Important Considerations:

• Historical Context:
  The Inquisition emerged during a time of intense religious fervor and political instability in Europe, where the Catholic Church was actively trying to consolidate its power.
  
  
• Varying Severity:
  The intensity and methods of the Inquisition varied across different regions of Spain and over time.
  
  
• Scholarly Debate:
  Historians continue to debate the exact scope and impact of the Spanish Inquisition, with ongoing research examining the nuances of its practices and the experiences of those affected.

The inquisitions actually began in France in 1184 brother.

Inquisition | Definition, History, & Facts | Britannica

Inquisition, a judicial procedure and later an institution that was established by the papacy and, sometimes, by secular governments to combat heresy. The name was applied to commissions in the 13th century and subsequently to similar structures in early modern Europe.

www.britannica.com

 

[BNR32FAN]

Another member expressed a desire to discuss the inquisition. That is a broad topic spanning hundreds of years. I will limit this thread to the most notorious of the Inquisitions, the Spanish Inquisition. This is a sore subject with the potential for elevated emotions. I want to limit the discussion to facts, not accusations.

If a post is made with an accusation that is not backed up by facts, I ask the moderators to remove the post, yet not give any penalty to the poster. If an accusation is made backed up by facts, not hearsay, then I ask the moderators to allow us to discuss it.

Hearsay is a legal term for just repeating what someone else had said. Such a post would something like I read this guy said this about the inquisition or I believe this about the inquisition
I will ask what are your sources? And we can evaluate them.

What I have found was that the inquisition was aimed at those that falsely claimed to be Catholic, yet retained their old religion and were seeking to subvert the Church. It was not aimed at those that professed to be Jews, Moslems or Protestants, only those that attempted to infiltrate the Church through falsehood.

Here is what I found so far:


The Spanish Inquisition, established in 1478, was a religious tribunal aimed at combating heresy within the Catholic Church, primarily targeting individuals suspected of practicing crypto-Judaism (secretly practicing Judaism while outwardly converting to Catholicism), and to a lesser extent, other forms of religious deviation; while often associated with extreme brutality and torture, modern research indicates that while executions did occur, the number was likely significantly lower than popular perception, with the majority of cases resulting in fines or public penance, and the Inquisition's focus was more on surveillance and social control than widespread persecution of the general population.

Key points about the Spanish Inquisition:

• Focus on Crypto-Jews:
  The primary target of the Inquisition was "conversos," individuals of Jewish descent who had nominally converted to Catholicism but were suspected of still practicing Jewish rituals in secret.
  
  
• Secret Denunciations:
  Accusations against individuals were often made anonymously, which contributed to a climate of fear and suspicion.
  
  
• Complex Trial Process:
  Trials involved lengthy interrogations, sometimes including torture, to extract confessions, although the use of torture was supposed to be carefully regulated and was not always applied.
  
  
• Penalties:
  Depending on the severity of the offense, penalties could range from public penance, confiscation of property, exile, to execution by burning at the stake.
  
  
• Social Impact:
  The Inquisition had a significant impact on Spanish society, creating a climate of distrust and fear, particularly among "conversos" who were constantly under suspicion.
  
  
• Exaggerated Popular Perception:
  While the brutality of the Inquisition is often exaggerated in popular culture, it is important to note that the number of executions was likely much lower than commonly believed.

Important Considerations:

• Historical Context:
  The Inquisition emerged during a time of intense religious fervor and political instability in Europe, where the Catholic Church was actively trying to consolidate its power.
  
  
• Varying Severity:
  The intensity and methods of the Inquisition varied across different regions of Spain and over time.
  
  
• Scholarly Debate:
  Historians continue to debate the exact scope and impact of the Spanish Inquisition, with ongoing research examining the nuances of its practices and the experiences of those affected.

I do agree with you that the number of executions are usually very exaggerated. But I must say that Jews shouldn’t have had to hide their practice of Judaism and if secular governments wanted to punish people for refusing to accept their theocracy then the church should’ve disassociated itself from the courts and punishment of those who refused to convert. The church should’ve been the one saying this is not what Christ and His apostles taught or practiced.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The inquisitions actually began in France in 1184 brother.

Inquisition | Definition, History, & Facts | Britannica

Inquisition, a judicial procedure and later an institution that was established by the papacy and, sometimes, by secular governments to combat heresy. The name was applied to commissions in the 13th century and subsequently to similar structures in early modern Europe.

www.britannica.com

I should also point out that this ended over 150 years ago and the Roman church today shouldn’t be held accountable for the actions of those in the church 150 years ago.

 

[The Liturgist]

Not quite, I believe 20th century communism killed almost 100,000,000

Globally yes, but not in one individual genocide, and furthermore Islam has probably killed more, when we consider the genocides of the North African Christians in the first millennium, followed by the genocide against most members of the Church of the East, which was, prior to the genocide started by Tamerlane and continued by his sons. The scale of the genocide can be reflected in the fact that afterwards the Church of the East survived only in the Fertile Crescend and in India, whereas before, it stretched from the island of Socotra in Yemen in the Southwest, to Nisibis and Edessa in the Northwest, to Mongolia in the Northeast, across central Asia, then down through China to Tibet in the Southeastern corner, and from there back to India.

Communism should be viewed as being as bad as Nazism, but somehow it gets a free pass.

 

[The Liturgist]

There are old drawings of them and actual relics still around.

Simon Whistler is not exactly known as a stalwart defender of reputable journalism. Indeed he relies on his writing staff and routinely produces videos on various subjects like history, engineering, true crime and other topics, and its unlikely he has training in more than one of them. His brand is essentially his British accent.

 

[JSRG]

There are old drawings of them

The video shows some drawings, but offers no evidence they are old. Anyone can make a drawing. And he offers no statement as to where these supposedly "old images" are from.

I noted before how there is a distinct lack of evidence the iron maiden was actually used as a torture device, and it seems rather to have been a creation of the 19th or 18th century. One can find "old drawings" of it--but they're not actual drawings from a period where it was actually used, because it was, well, not used. They're just stuff people made later.

and actual relics still around.

What actual relics? He shows some pictures, but offers no evidence whatsoever it is in fact a "relic" rather than something someone made later, nor evidence that these were actually used for torture. Indeed, he doesn't even say where the images are from. "Torture museums" make replicas of stuff all the time, sometimes of things that actually existed, sometimes of things that didn't. Iron maidens are another example of such things where you can find physical ones, but they don't date back to the time they were supposedly used.

As noted, the video doesn't offer actual evidence. He just shows a few images, probably just grabbed from random places online, with no statement of where he got them nor evidence any of them actually date back to the time of supposed use. And the maker of that video seems to have no actual medievalist credentials whatsoever, so one can't appeal to him as an authority.

The video offers no evidence that can't be applied for iron maidens. Are there drawings of them? Yes, but they aren't contemporary with their supposed use. Are there physical ones? Yes, but they were made after their supposed use. But as noted by actual medievalists (note that the people who run that website have literal PhD's in the subject, making them a trustworthy source), there is a distinct lack of evidence they were ever actually used and appear by all accounts to have been a 19th century creation, much like how plenty of supposed medieval torture devices have a lack of evidence of actual use, and this appears to be the case for the Spanish tickler.

 

[JSRG]

The inquisitions actually began in France in 1184 brother.

Inquisition | Definition, History, & Facts | Britannica

Inquisition, a judicial procedure and later an institution that was established by the papacy and, sometimes, by secular governments to combat heresy. The name was applied to commissions in the 13th century and subsequently to similar structures in early modern Europe.

www.britannica.com

The Spanish Inquisition didn't begin in 1184, which was what boughtwithaprice was explicitly referring to:

"Another member expressed a desire to discuss the inquisition. That is a broad topic spanning hundreds of years. I will limit this thread to the most notorious of the Inquisitions, the Spanish Inquisition."

The Spanish Inquisition was a different entity from the French one you allude to.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The Spanish Inquisition didn't begin in 1184, which was what boughtwithaprice was explicitly referring to:

"Another member expressed a desire to discuss the inquisition. That is a broad topic spanning hundreds of years. I will limit this thread to the most notorious of the Inquisitions, the Spanish Inquisition."

The Spanish Inquisition was a different entity from the French one you allude to.

Yes but the OP is actually about a discussion Boughtwithaprice and I had in another thread when I brought up the inquisitions in response to his claim that the Roman church cannot err and has apostolic succession ensuring that it cannot err. My purpose is not to drag up dirt to discredit the Roman church, only to point out the fact that history has proven that apostolic succession doesn’t guarantee infallibility. I also pointed out that the inquisitions were sanctioned by 99 popes over a period of 686 years which began in France in 1184 and continued in numerous Roman Catholic provinces all over the globe finally ending in 1870, that is according to Britannica and Wikipedia.