Is loving God a work?

[Aaron112]

Hint: crosses aren't known for being pleasant.

(Jesus) .... " endured execution on a stake as a criminal, scorning the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.[b] 3 Yes, think about him who endured such hostility against himself from sinners, so that you won’t grow tired or become despondent. 4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in the contest against sin.

"5 Also you have forgotten the counsel which speaks with you as sons:

“My son, don’t despise the discipline of Adonai
or become despondent when he corrects you.
6 For Adonai disciplines those he loves
and whips everyone he accepts as a son.”[c]
7 Regard your endurance as discipline; God is dealing with you as sons. For what son goes undisciplined by his father? 8

All legitimate sons undergo discipline; so if you don’t, you’re a mamzer and not a son!

9 Furthermore, we had physical fathers who disciplined us, and we respected them; how much more should we submit to our spiritual Father and live! 10 For they disciplined us only for a short time and only as best they could; but he disciplines us in a way that provides genuine benefit to us and enables us to share in his holiness.

11 Now, all discipline, while it is happening, does indeed seem painful,

not enjoyable;

but for those who have been trained by it, it later produces its peaceful fruit, which is righteousness.

 

[Hoping2]

Can you try and just state what you mean by these questions.

If believing is done for salvation, then believing is one of the works the anti-works crowd opposes.
The only works that Paul wrote against were the works of the Law.

Anyone who has faith and loves God does not live in sin. That is not who they are.

That is correct.

They may find a weak moment of temptation, but that is something they did, not who they are.

You just annulled your prior line.
One either walks in the light, or they walk in darkness.
There is no back-and-forth.

Do you fear God? It's good to have a reverence for God, but do you live in fear of judgement and lake of fire?

Yes, to both questions.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." (Pro 9:10)

Eohesians 2:
1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Gal 3:10)
It is the works of the Law that Paul writes against.

 

[Guojing]

There's a lot of error present in this thread, as likewise most all threads on the internet.

In order for you to conclude that, you should have your own stand, is love a work?

 

[Hoping2]

None of this would be an issue except for Paul's exposition in Romans about "work," and Paul defined what he meant by "work."
What is the background reason for arguing that love, or faith, or belief is a work?

What point are you trying to make?

My point, is that nothing is a forbidden work except for the works of the Law.
Those who condemn "works" eventually fight against anything we must do for salvation, including resisting temptation.
Repentance from sin, and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins are also on their list.

 

[Aaron112]

In order for you to conclude that, you should have your own stand, is love a work?

It appears wrong (sinful?) to argue the doctrinal aspects either way as this is not edifying nor helping anyone. Not at all unusual on the internet, of course.... but a little sometimes or often like quicksand to lure gullible into some kind of trap (religious trouble) ?

 

[RDKirk]

My point, is that nothing is a forbidden work except for the works of the Law.
Those who condemn "works" eventually fight against anything we must do for salvation, including resisting temptation.
Repentance from sin, and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins are also on their list.

That's not what Paul said, however. If it were that simple, he could have said simply that.

Instead, he went to great length to explain what "work" is. And, yes, the works of the Law fit that explanation. But that's not all that does. If he did not explain what "work" is in this particular regard and said it was only about the Law, then those proscriptions that are part of the Law but are not "works" would become proscribed.

Not to murder would be a "work of the Law." Not to commit adultery would be a "work of the Law."

But, no, "work" is not defined as the Law, it's designed as an act that is intended to create an obligation for a wage. Any act that is intended to create an obligation for a wage is a "work," whether it is in the Law or not.

 

[Jo555]

My point, is that nothing is a forbidden work except for the works of the Law.
Those who condemn "works" eventually fight against anything we must do for salvation, including resisting temptation.
Repentance from sin, and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins are also on their list.

My point is anything we do to earn our salvation, is works of the flesh.

If that is the case, you have fallen from grace.

It really is simple. The bible does not prohibit works. It prohibits trying to earn salvation by works.

It is a matter of the heart. Everything boils down to why you are doing it. Even me replying to you should be done as an outflow of my love for God and you.

Do the prayerful study for yourself. I do believe the books of Romans is a great start, imo, as it summarizes this journey.. Just try not to go into it with others teachings influencing you, or looking for what tou believe will fit what you currently believe.

Ask God to show you and open your heart to his truth.

I didn't plan on looking at this notice in my notifications as I hate to go on and on about these things as it isn't always fruitful or benefici

 

[Jo555]

My point is anything we do to earn our salvation, is works of the flesh.

If that is the case, you have fallen from grace.

It really is simple. The bible does not prohibit works. It prohibits trying to earn salvation by works.

It is a matter of the heart. Everything boils down to why you are doing it. Even me replying to you should be done as an outflow of my love for God and you.

Do the prayerful study for yourself. I do believe the books of Romans is a great start, imo, as it summarizes this journey.. Just try not to go into it with others teachings influencing you, or looking for what tou believe will fit what you currently believe.

Ask God to show you and open your heart to his truth.

I didn't plan on looking at this notice in my notifications as I hate to go on and on about these things as it isn't always fruitful or benefici

Sorry, hit post too soon. But as I was saying, I'm actually glad i did because it really is simple and was able to stress that. We complicate matters, but if we approach it like children wanting to learn of their father, His Spirit will teach us

And not i have arrived myself. I'm still learning abd growing, but we must approach all things with the right heart, for love of God and ourselves and others.

God bless you. Have a pleasant evening in Him.

 

[Hoping2]

That's not what Paul said, however. If it were that simple, he could have said simply that.

H e did say that..."Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal 2:16)

Instead, he went to great length to explain what "work" is. And, yes, the works of the Law fit that explanation. But that's not all that does. If he did not explain what "work" is in this particular regard and said it was only about the Law, then those proscriptions that are part of the Law but are not "works" would become proscribed.
Not to murder would be a "work of the Law." Not to commit adultery would be a "work of the Law."
But, no, "work" is not defined as the Law, it's designed as an act that is intended to create an obligation for a wage. Any act that is intended to create an obligation for a wage is a "work," whether it is in the Law or not.

Are you saying, that to you, resisting murdering someone is also a work ?
I won't kill anyone, so I can go to heaven.
Murderers won't go to heaven.
Those who won't repent of sin won't go to heaven either.
Neither will anyone who is not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins !
The only works Paul wrote against, were the works of the Law.

 

[Hoping2]

My point is anything we do to earn our salvation, is works of the flesh.

Is resisting temptation a work ?

If that is the case, you have fallen from grace.
It really is simple. The bible does not prohibit works. It prohibits trying to earn salvation by works.

Please illustrate something that fits that parameter...that is not a work of the Law.

It is a matter of the heart. Everything boils down to why you are doing it. Even me replying to you should be done as an outflow of my love for God and you.

Everything I do, is to be found worthy of eternal life on the day of judgement.

Do the prayerful study for yourself. I do believe the books of Romans is a great start, imo, as it summarizes this journey.. Just try not to go into it with others teachings influencing you, or looking for what tou believe will fit what you currently believe.

I have already, and the only works Paul wrote against were the works of the Law.

Ask God to show you and open your heart to his truth.

Name any other thing, besides remaining obedient to God, that man do to earn salvation ?
What do you define as a work ?

 

[Aaron112]

The only works Paul wrote against, were the works of the Law.

Again, no. No one following Jesus runs red lights, steals from banks, or covets his neighbors wife.
Doing Good is "required" - especially taking care of the widows, orphans, the poor.

 

[Jo555]

My point is anything we do to earn our salvation, is works of the flesh.

If that is the case, you have fallen from grace.

It really is simple. The bible does not prohibit works. It prohibits trying to earn salvation by works.

It is a matter of the heart. Everything boils down to why you are doing it. Even me replying to you should be done as an outflow of my love for God and you.

Do the prayerful study for yourself. I do believe the books of Romans is a great start, imo, as it summarizes this journey.. Just try not to go into it with others teachings influencing you, or looking for what tou believe will fit what you currently believe.

Ask God to show you and open your heart to his truth.

I didn't plan on looking at this notice in my notifications as I hate to go on and on about these things as it isn't always fruitful or benefici

Sorry, hit post too soon. But as I was saying, I'm actually glad i did because it really is simple. We complicate matters, but if we approach it like children wanting to learn of their father, His Spirit will teach us

And not i have arrived myself. I'm still learning and growing, but we must approach all things with the right heart, for love of God and love for others as ourselves.

God bless you. Have a pleasant evening in Him

H e did say that..."Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal 2:16)

Are you saying, that to you, resisting murdering someone is also a work ?

You do realize that works of the law, and works of the flesh are the same thing, yes?
No one is saying you shouldn't resist, but if you are operating in your own strength, it is a work of the law and flesh.

I won't kill anyone, so I can go to heaven.
Murderers won't go to heaven.
Those who won't repent of sin won't go to heaven either.
Neither will anyone who is not baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins !
The only works Paul wrote against, were the works of the Law.

You do realize that if you hate your brother, you are a murderer?
You do realize that repentance is a work of the Spirit?
Have you received the baptism of the Spirit?
Again, the works of the law is the works of the flesh. Anything we do to earn salvation is a work of the law and flesh and is condemned to death.

But I said I wouldn't be back here. As time permits and I feel ok with it, I'll try and answer your questions and points. I, at least, feel I can understand them better. I just see these things get very unprofitable with people pulling scriptures here and there and then it can get into it being more about persuading you to see things my way for the wrong reasons, and that is going no where with God and his Spirit doesn't flow that way, so as time permits and I feel ok, I'll try and address your points and questions.

 

[Jo555]

Sorry, hit post too soon. But as I was saying, I'm actually glad i did because it really is simple. We complicate matters, but if we approach it like children wanting to learn of their father, His Spirit will teach us

And not i have arrived myself. I'm still learning and growing, but we must approach all things with the right heart, for love of God and love for others as ourselves.

God bless you. Have a pleasant evening in Him

You do realize that works of the law, and works of the flesh are the same thing, yes?
No one is saying you shouldn't resist, but if you are operating in your own strength, it is a work of the law and flesh.

You do realize that if you hate your brother, you are a murderer?
You do realize that repentance is a work of the Spirit?
Have you received the baptism of the Spirit?
Again, the works of the law is the works of the flesh. Anything we do to earn salvation is a work of the law and flesh and is condemned to death.

But I said I wouldn't be back here. As time permits and I feel ok with it, I'll try and answer your questions and points. I, at least, feel I can understand them better. I just see these things get very unprofitable with people pulling scriptures here and there and then it can get into it being more about persuading you to see things my way for the wrong reasons, and that is going no where with God and his Spirit doesn't flow that way, so as time permits and I feel ok, I'll try and address your points and questions.

One more thing I should say tonight to tie this in. Remember, the law is good and if we hate our brother and want to murder him, then the law and the fear of punishment that comes with it would serve us well because we are already not walking in God's love by his Spirit. Even so, let us not think we haven't murdered him for with God, as Jesus clearly said in the Sermon on the Mount, the heart of the matter is the matter of the heart for if we hate our brethren, we murdered him.

So in this instance, the law would serve us well if we are not operating in love so we don't literally murder someone, but the law serves us. We don't serve it. We serve Christ out of love. Humbling ourselves before the mighty hand of God (and humility means we understand we cannot do it without Him), resist the devil and the call of the flesh, and we overcome.

Many people resist and fail, and we tend to see it that they love to sin and so we load them up with more advise on overcoming it in their own strength, which is a work of the law and flesh.

Romans 8:
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Ok, now I really must get some sleep, but will return as I feel it is ok.

 

[Jo555]

One more thing I should say tonight to tie this in. Remember, the law is good and if we hate our brother and want to murder him, then the law and the fear of punishment that comes with it would serve us well because we are already not walking in God's love by his Spirit. Even so, let us not think we haven't murdered him for with God, as Jesus clearly said in the Sermon on the Mount, the heart of the matter is the matter of the heart for if we hate our brethren, we murdered him.

So in this instance, the law would serve us well if we are not operating in love so we don't literally murder someone, but the law serves us. We don't serve it. We serve Christ out of love. Humbling ourselves before the mighty hand of God (and humility means we understand we cannot do it without Him), resist the devil and the call of the flesh, and we overcome.

Many people resist and fail, and we tend to see it that they love to sin and so we load them up with more advise on overcoming it in their own strength, which is a work of the law and flesh.

Romans 8:
12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

Ok, now I really must get some sleep, but will return as I feel it is ok.

Shoo, one more as important to understand and tie in my prior post. If you are counting on keeping the law and works for salvation, if you break one law you have broken the whole of the law. No one will be justified by the works of the law and flesh. We must enter in by grace, through faith, and as an outflow of the first two we perform good works, but the works doesn't earn our salvation. It is the evidence of it.

 

[Guojing]

It appears wrong (sinful?) to argue the doctrinal aspects either way as this is not edifying nor helping anyone. Not at all unusual on the internet, of course.... but a little sometimes or often like quicksand to lure gullible into some kind of trap (religious trouble) ?

So how do you conclude "There's a lot of error present in this thread" when you don't even want to share your own view on whether love is a work or not?

 

[BeyondET]

Context is a good thing.

He also said, "Take up your cross and follow Me".

Hint: crosses aren't known for being pleasant.

-CryptoLutheran

Context is a good thing.

He also said, "Take up your cross and follow Me".

Hint: crosses aren't known for being pleasant.

-CryptoLutheran

That hinges on If your willing

 

[ViaCrucis]

That hinges on If your willing

If you think that following Jesus is a cake walk, then I just don't think you have seriously read the Bible, or have seriously thought about the cost of discipleship and what taking Jesus seriously means.

If you say that loving everyone, including your own enemies, is easy, then either you have lived a very fortunate life or you don't truly understand what love means.

G.K. Chesterton once wrote, "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BeyondET]

If you think that following Jesus is a cake walk, then I just don't think you have seriously read the Bible, or have seriously thought about the cost of discipleship and what taking Jesus seriously means.

If you say that loving everyone, including your own enemies, is easy, then either you have lived a very fortunate life or you don't truly understand what love means.

G.K. Chesterton once wrote, "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult; and left untried."

-CryptoLutheran

Who said anything about a cake walk, yes the burden is light but not a cake walk.

Jesus didn't say my yoke is easy and the burden is light except when loving your enemies.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Who said anything about a cake walk, yes the burden is light but not a cake walk.

Jesus didn't say my yoke is easy and the burden is light except when loving your enemies.

What do you think Jesus meant by saying this?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jo555]

That hinges on If your willing

It begs the question, can I be willing on my own?

Philippians 2:
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
------------

A bit off topic, but I've seen this verse used to claim a case for counting on works for salvation, and we can see it is more a call to cooperate with the Holy Spirit's inner work in your life.

Jesus told us to do many things impossible without Him. We can take his words and make a legalistic doctrine out of it.

And we make a big deal of the law when Jesus held us to an impossible standard. On sermon on mount he made it clear the heart of the matter is the matter of the heart for we have all broken God's laws at heart.

Yet, Jesus came to fulfill the law and impart that to us by his Spirit. We can now walk in obedience because we have salvation and his Spirit empowering us by his love. We are driven by his love for his love is the fulfillment of the law

Additionally, fear and trembling in that verse I do not see as a call to live in fear for several scriptures tell us that fear is a spirit that we are not to live in.

This is, as I see it, is understanding that there is discipline for his children if we grieve his Spirit. There is a healthy reverential fear, but fear is not something we are called to live in. We do not fear God. He is our loving Father.