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Meta's Zuckerberg gets rid of fact-checkers

RileyG

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There was no government censorship of Facebook. That's already been established. It's also been established that Musk is banning anyone on Twitter who criticizes him.
Well? Not government censorship, no. But maybe censorship that didn't fit Zuckerberg's personal agenda?

At least he changed.
 
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RileyG

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Fact check: Pants on fire.
The Biden administration may not be censoring anything, I will give you that, but they are/were definitely pushing for their approved agenda.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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To have Constitutional protection, one doesn't need to be "registered as news media". One only needs to be an American citizen.

Thank you for the valuable information. I look forward to using it someday.

Facebook is not a person with citizenship. It is a profit organization and does not enjoy the same constitutional rights as an American citizen. In Valentine v. Chrestensen (1942), the Supreme Court of the United States (SCOTUS) declared that the First Amendment did not protect commercial speech. However, in Bigelow v. Virginia (1975), SCOTUS had a different perspective, recognizing that commercial speech is protected under the First Amendment but must not mislead the public. There are additional SCOTUS cases that indicate the uncertainty regarding whether businesses like Facebook should have full constitutional rights for free speech.

The current Supreme Court views social media as having the same rights as traditional news media. However, if the court shifts from a conservative to a liberal majority, similar cases might lead to different rulings. Time will tell.
 
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"If there had been" means there hadn't been.
No, it does not. It means that if there was, then there wasn't standing. So if there wasn't censorship then it doesn't matter because obviously no censorship=no standing, but if there was censorship there still wasn't standing. So it didn't say anything about whether there was censorship or not, because the decision comes out the same way regardless. That was my point, which you completely dodged in favor of plucking one sentence out of context and then proceeding to misinterpret it.
 
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NxNW

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It means that if there was, then there wasn't standing. So if there wasn't censorship then it doesn't matter because obviously no censorship=no standing, but if there was censorship there still wasn't standing.
But it's already been well-established that nothing was censored. The Biden administration did not prevent the publication of a single article, post or broadcast. But you can easily prove me wrong by posting the censored content and a link to the orders from the Biden administration preventing its publication.
 
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probinson

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No. Like I said, I stopped keeping track. My wife is the organized planner in the family who remembers everything. I can barely remember what day of the week it is. I just go for the shots when she does. I know it's at least once a year; there may have been 2 in the first year I stopped keeping track.

Fair enough.

I'm sure I could go dig into my various MyChart accounts to figure it out, but we've gone to a combination of doctor's offices and in-store clinics, so it'd be more hassle than I want to invest in an internet argument.

As I said, you're in the overwhelming minority. Only about 20% of people are following the recommendations of the CDC. I guess the other 80% are now just anti-science, anti-vaxxers.

"authorized" != "recommended"

Please. The CDC has never met a COVID vaccine it didn't fully recommend.

Either way, where are you seeing this? This is the first I'm hearing of 10 doses.

Let's count.

In 2020, the original COVID vaccines were recommended. Two doses. By fall of 2021, it was clear that the protection the vaccines provided lasted for about 30 minutes. So the US government recommended a booster dose (before the FDA had approved them, which led to the top two vaccine regulators at the FDA resigning in protest). That makes three. Then not long after that, the bivalent booster was recommended. We're up to four. Then they took the approach that if one bivalent booster is good, two must be better. That's five. Then there was a short period of time where they actually recommended that if it had been more than 4 months since your last COVID vaccine, you should get another. That's six. Then they decided (with no data to support the recommendation) that you should get a vaccine every year. It's been two years since then. That's seven and eight. So I stand corrected. There have "only" been eight doses that I can count.

Here's a mashup of Dr. Peter Hotez talking about how great two doses of vaccine would be and how it would be long lasting. Er, three doses. Um, wait, 4 doses. 5? Eh, don't overthink it. Just keep getting more. And more! Don't worry about the number. Just get a vaccine every couple of months.


That's nice.

It's really not. The reason the rest of the world has stopped recommending vaccines for everyone is because they carry risks that outweigh the benefits. That's why roughly 80% of the population has stopped listening to the CDC recommendation to get COVID vaccines AT LEAST every year, and sometimes two or three per year.

There were 5 entries on my card. One was crossed out. I don't remember why.

I'm kind of shocked people still care about their vaccine card. Although I guess it might be good to have it around, just in case the government goes rogue and tries to stop people from socializing again without their approved papers.

Well, I'm in the top quintile in a bunch of areas. What's one more.

80% of the population has stopped listening to the recommendations of the CDC. Not sure why you think that makes you the "top" quintile.

Increased resistance to emerging strains of the disease.

Based on what? Have you followed the ACIP and FDA meetings? There isn't even any data that would suggest what you just said is true. Most of the trials have been done in mice, and have only measured increased antibodies, which the FDA readily admits is not a correlate for protection.

A lot of people do get sick from vaccines. The flu vaccine is pretty well known for this, but it's also a common warning for others.

Yes, I know that's what you've been told. If you can't move and you feel like death warmed over, that just means the vaccine is "working". What's shocking to me is how many people believed that nonsense.

If we're trading anecdotes, I also know of countless people who had the vaccine and had zero ill effects. Personally, I never felt more than a bit run down.

Anecdotally, the people that I know that tell me they've had zero ill effects from the vaccine are sick quite a bit more frequently than those who chose to take fewer doses. Empirically, the Cleveland Clinic ran a study that demonstrated a perfect correlation between increased number of infections and increased number of doses in their workforce.

F2.large.jpg


Source: https://academic.oup.com/ofid/article/10/6/ofad209/7131292?login=false

Of course, fact-checkers dutifully jumped into action to explain why this very concerning result didn't mean what it clearly showed, while the Cleveland Clinic took a more reasonable position in the conclusion of their paper, which stated:

The association of increased risk of COVID-19 with more prior vaccine doses was unexpected. A simplistic explanation might be that those who received more doses were more likely to be individuals at higher risk of COVID-19. A small proportion of individuals may have fit this description. However, the majority of participants in this study were young, and all were eligible to have received ≥3 doses of vaccine by the study start date, which they had every opportunity to do. Therefore, those who received <3 doses (46% of individuals in the study) were not ineligible to receive the vaccine but rather chose not to follow the CDC's recommendations on remaining updated with COVID-19 vaccination, and one could reasonably expect these individuals to have been more likely to exhibit risk-taking behavior. Despite this, their risk of acquiring COVID-19 was lower than that that of participants those who received more prior vaccine doses.
Ours is not the only study to find a possible association with more prior vaccine doses and higher risk of COVID-19. During an Omicron wave in Iceland, individuals who had previously received ≥2 doses were found to have a higher odds of reinfection than those who had received <2 doses, in an unadjusted analysis [21]. A large study found, in an adjusted analysis, that those who had an Omicron variant infection after previously receiving 3 doses of vaccine had a higher risk of reinfection than those who had an Omicron variant infection after previously receiving 2 doses [22]. Another study found, in multivariable analysis, that receipt of 2 or 3 doses of am mRNA vaccine following prior COVID-19 was associated with a higher risk of reinfection than receipt of a single dose [7]. Immune imprinting from prior exposure to different antigens in a prior vaccine [22, 23] and class switch toward noninflammatory spike-specific immunoglobulin G4 antibodies after repeated SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccination [24] have been suggested as possible mechanisms whereby prior vaccine may provide less protection than expected. We still have a lot to learn about protection from COVID-19 vaccination, and in addition to vaccine effectiveness, it is important to examine whether multiple vaccine doses given over time may not be having the beneficial effect that is generally assumed.

In a world where the objective is to protect people, this would have been given far more attention and studied more closely to determine the utility and benefit of multiple vaccine doses. But in our world where the objective is to sell more vaccine doses, "fact-checkers" just pretended like the data didn't indicate what it clearly showed so that we could push even more vaccines.

Sure, they didn't get the ventilator thing right.

That's being pretty generous. They wasted millions of dollars in taxpayer money for ventilators that ended up as scrap metal. They SHOULD HAVE known better. But you don't seem to understand that all the hubbub about ventilators was to scare people. And it worked. Here you are in 2025 telling me that you'd rather take a vaccine that leaves you temporarily incapacitated than end up intubated. Fear is a heckuva thing.

But remember that this was while we were piling bodies in reefer trucks because morgues were running out of space.

Yeah, that's not really true either. There were refrigerated trucks sitting on streets, but nearly all of them were unused. This is not unlike when they sent the USNS Comfort to NYC because hospitals were "overwhelmed", and yet the ship only cared for 182 patients over 3-1/2 weeks. Can you just imagine the cost to deploy that ship from Virginia to NYC to care for 52 people a week for 3 weeks? Not to mention the 1,110 member medical crew that was dedicated to caring for those 7 or 8 people/day? What a massive waste.

Also, do you remember the convoys of military trucks that were carrying dead bodies from COVID? There were images of the Italian Military trucking dead bodies out en masse. But recently, evidence has emerged during the Italian COVID Commission that those trucks contained exactly ONE coffin and ONE body. Here's what it looked like to you.

Screenshot 2025-01-10 at 10.11.44 AM.png

What valid reason was there for showing images of a convoy of trucks, each carrying only ONE dead body? Theater. Fear. And it worked. Here you are in 2025 talking about reefer trucks full of bodies, all because you read it in the news and saw a picture somewhere.

Tell me, did you ever see a picture of a body being loaded into those trucks? I'd refer you to this article, where an FOIA was sent asking about those trucks. You can read the article for yourself with all of its supporting evidence, but here is the conclusion:

Based on the records FEMA supplied to me, it appears most of the trailers the agency sent to New York City in late March and early April 2020 went largely unused, were requested on the basis of anticipated (versus demonstrated) need, and served theatrical purposes rather than practical ones.

I'll forgive the officials for going into panic mode and trying whatever might work.

I will not. There are far too many questions. The panic incited by the governments and propagated by the media and dubious fact-checkers was intentional. Make people scared enough, and they'll do just about anything, no matter how nonsensical and devoid of evidence.
 
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probinson

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But it's already been well-established that nothing was censored. The Biden administration did not prevent the publication of a single article, post or broadcast. But you can easily prove me wrong by posting the censored content and a link to the orders from the Biden administration preventing its publication.

You're moving the goalposts again. You said that the Biden administration never pressured social media companies to censor anything. That's been shown to be demonstrably false.
 
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Pommer

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You're moving the goalposts again. You said that the Biden administration never pressured social media companies to censor anything. That's been shown to be demonstrably false.
Trying to curb mis/disinformation≠censorship.
 
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probinson

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Trying to curb mis/disinformation≠censorship.

Yes, it is.

The government pressured social media to censor what it deemed to be mis/disinformation all throughout COVID. A prominent example was the lab leak hypothesis. This was a "conspiracy theory", so said the government, and pressured social media companies to treat it accordingly, which most did. Except for the fact that our own Energy Department said that a lab leak was the "most likely" origin.

It's kind of surprising to me the people that are willing to let the government be the arbiter of what is misinformation. It seems rather foolish and naive to believe that the government would not abuse this authority to censor viewpoints that were unfavorable to their interests.

As I've said all throughout this discussion, I am far more concerned about government censorship than I am about alleged mis/disinformation. I don't need nor want the government to "protect" me from misinformation. I'm continually amazed at the number of people who want to abdicate their responsibility for knowing whether something is true or not to the government.
 
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zippy2006

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Trying to curb mis/disinformation≠censorship.
Of course it is! o_O

Here's your argument:
  • Curbing mis/disinformation is good
  • Censorship is bad
  • Therefore curbing mis/disinformation is not censorship
And the problem with that argument is that it ignores the meaning of words. Censorship means something. It doesn't mean one thing when you like it and another thing when you don't. That's the fallacy of post hoc rationalization. Censoring is the same thing whether the content censored is deemed good or bad.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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Yes, it is.

The government pressured social media to censor what it deemed to be mis/disinformation all throughout COVID. A prominent example was the lab leak hypothesis. This was a "conspiracy theory", so said the government, and pressured social media companies to treat it accordingly, which most did. Except for the fact that our own Energy Department said that a lab leak was the "most likely" origin.

It's kind of surprising to me the people that are willing to let the government be the arbiter of what is misinformation. It seems rather foolish and naive to believe that the government would not abuse this authority to censor viewpoints that were unfavorable to their interests.

As I've said all throughout this discussion, I am far more concerned about government censorship than I am about alleged mis/disinformation. I don't need nor want the government to "protect" me from misinformation. I'm continually amazed at the number of people who want to abdicate their responsibility for knowing whether something is true or not to the government.

The issue is not as clear-cut as described. Businesses in America do have “some” First Amendment rights. In the 1975 case of Bigelow v. Virginia, the Supreme Court granted some freedom of speech to businesses for commercial speech, but with certain conditions. Below is a summary of the qualifications on free speech in commerce.


Bigelow v. Virginia

It then established a four-part test for determining whether a restriction on commercial speech is constitutional. Specifically, the Central Hudson test requires that:

  • The commercial speech isn’t misleading and doesn’t pertain to illegal activity.
  • The government restriction serves a substantial state interest.
  • The government restriction directly advances that substantial state interest.
  • The government restriction isn’t more extensive than necessary to advance that state interest.


If the Biden administration believed that COVID-19 misinformation on Facebook could harm the public, Bigelow v. Virginia verdict granted them the authority to remove such information from social media platforms.

Mark Zuckerberg never took the case to the Supreme Court because Facebook lacked standing. He prefers to handle it politically rather than legally, knowing he wouldn't win even with a conservative court.
 
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Pommer

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Yes, it is.

The government pressured social media to censor what it deemed to be mis/disinformation all throughout COVID. A prominent example was the lab leak hypothesis. This was a "conspiracy theory", so said the government, and pressured social media companies to treat it accordingly, which most did. Except for the fact that our own Energy Department said that a lab leak was the "most likely" origin.

It's kind of surprising to me the people that are willing to let the government be the arbiter of what is misinformation. It seems rather foolish and naive to believe that the government would not abuse this authority to censor viewpoints that were unfavorable to their interests.

As I've said all throughout this discussion, I am far more concerned about government censorship than I am about alleged mis/disinformation. I don't need nor want the government to "protect" me from misinformation. I'm continually amazed at the number of people who want to abdicate their responsibility for knowing whether something is true or not to the government.

Ordinarily, I’d be inclined to be on your side, and might be persuaded to go so far as to agree that some of the “concern” expressed by government officials breached the censorship barrier.

But there was a lot of just plain “kookiness” being palmed-off as TheReal Truth®️, which I’d argue needed to be nixed.
 
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probinson

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A fun clip:


^_^

I remember watching this when it originally aired, and I remembering thinking how uncomfortable Colbert looked during this segment. Jon Stewart was simply saying what everyone was thinking, but he was one of the only ones to be brave enough to say it out loud on national TV.

Of course, Colbert was also where the ridiculous "Vax-scene" propaganda originated. So it's not really too surprising to see him squirm as Stewart challenged the approved narrative.
 
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probinson

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If the Biden administration believed that COVID-19 misinformation on Facebook could harm the public, Bigelow v. Virginia verdict granted them the authority to remove such information from social media platforms.

That should concern everyone. That the Biden administration can just pretend like something is harmful to the public and therefore may censor it at will is one heckuva slippery slope, don't you think?

Lying to people, overselling the efficacy of the vaccine and downplaying its side effects was INCREDIBLY harmful to the public. Censoring any dissent was a surefire way to ensure a loss of trust.

You never help people by censoring them. I have posted this many times before, but the ACLU published this document in January 2008.

The lessons from history should be kept in mind whenever we are told by government officials that “tough,” liberty-limiting actions are needed to protect us from dangerous diseases. Specifically:
  • Coercion and brute force are rarely necessary. In fact they are generally counterproductive—they gratuitously breed public distrust and encourage the people who are most in need of care to evade public health authorities.
  • On the other hand, effective, preventive strategies that rely on voluntary participation do work. Simply put, people do not want to contract smallpox, influenza or other dangerous diseases. They want positive government help in avoiding and treating disease. As long as public officials are working to help people rather than to punish them, people are likely to engage willingly in any and all efforts to keep their families and communities healthy.
  • Minorities and other socially disadvantaged populations tend to bear the brunt of tough public health measures.
 
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probinson

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Of course it is! o_O

Here's your argument:
  • Curbing mis/disinformation is good
  • Censorship is bad
  • Therefore curbing mis/disinformation is not censorship
And the problem with that argument is that it ignores the meaning of words. Censorship means something. It doesn't mean one thing when you like it and another thing when you don't. That's the fallacy of post hoc rationalization. Censoring is the same thing whether the content censored is deemed good or bad.

That's exactly right. They want to pretend as if there are two definitions of the word censorship. But censorship is censorship, whether we're censoring naughty words on TV, or deleting or editing something someone else posted online.

What they really mean to say is not that the government doesn't censor people, but rather they support government censorship in cases where they agree with said censorship.
 
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probinson

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But there was a lot of just plain “kookiness” being palmed-off as TheReal Truth®️, which I’d argue needed to be nixed.

Why? There has always been (and always will be) "kookiness". Why does it now need to be censored? Why is the better answer not to counter it with "non-kookiness"?

There's nothing that will amplify a "kooky" conspiracy theory more than censoring it.
 
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Pommer

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That's exactly right. They want to pretend as if there are two definitions of the word censorship. But censorship is censorship, whether we're censoring naughty words on TV, or deleting or editing something someone else posted online.

What they really mean to say is not that the government doesn't censor people, but rather they support government censorship in cases where they agree with said censorship.
We haven’t been officially “at war” for going on eighty-years, but there was plenty of censorship during the War years, as specified in the Constitution.

Pandemics aren’t quite war, though, but the concern over the public getting the tru-tru might’ve been rightly perceived as censorship.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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That should concern everyone. That the Biden administration can just pretend like something is harmful to the public and therefore may censor it at will is one heckuva slippery slope, don't you think?

Lying to people, overselling the efficacy of the vaccine and downplaying its side effects was INCREDIBLY harmful to the public. Censoring any dissent was a surefire way to ensure a loss of trust.

You never help people by censoring them. I have posted this many times before, but the ACLU published this document in January 2008.

The lessons from history should be kept in mind whenever we are told by government officials that “tough,” liberty-limiting actions are needed to protect us from dangerous diseases. Specifically:
  • Coercion and brute force are rarely necessary. In fact they are generally counterproductive—they gratuitously breed public distrust and encourage the people who are most in need of care to evade public health authorities.
  • On the other hand, effective, preventive strategies that rely on voluntary participation do work. Simply put, people do not want to contract smallpox, influenza or other dangerous diseases. They want positive government help in avoiding and treating disease. As long as public officials are working to help people rather than to punish them, people are likely to engage willingly in any and all efforts to keep their families and communities healthy.
  • Minorities and other socially disadvantaged populations tend to bear the brunt of tough public health measures.

It does not concern me because the US Constitution provides freedom to news media and publication. If Mark Zuckerberg wanted the same freedom of speech that news outlets like Fox News have, he could register Facebook as a news media entity to gain that protection.

If Mark Zuckerberg registered Facebook as a news outlet, the Biden administration couldn't pressure Facebook on content. However, Mark avoids registering to circumvent FCC regulations while still claiming Facebook is news media. He wants to have it both ways.
 
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