Is Sola Scriptura Self-refuting?

[Aaron112]

What does it mean to test everything (1 Thessalonians 5:21)? | ...

June 7, 2022 - John warns his readers to be on guard against idols (1 John 5:21). Peter adds that believers should be on guard so they are not carried away by error (2 Peter 3:17). Testing everything and holding fast to what is good... ...

 

[bbbbbbb]

You would do much better to leave the judging of Catholics to Jesus. Jesus knows what is in the minds and hearts of Catholics and non-Catholics. You are not going to convince me you have that ability.

You might find this strange, but I have the ability to hear and understand the English language. I have had numerous interactions and discussions with a large number of Catholics who have clearly and forthrightly exhibited these thought patterns. Now, the fact that the CCC does not teach these things explicitly is true. I am not making that assertion at all. However, the fact remains that numerous Catholics have clearly spelled out their understanding of Catholic belief. Their faith in the utter impeccability of their denomination is unquestioned, as is the dogma of papal infallibility. Likewise, their faith in the divine attributes of Mary (e.g. omnipresence, omniscience, perpetual virginity) is also unquestioned.

 

[Valletta]

You might find this strange, but I have the ability to hear and understand the English language. I have had numerous interactions and discussions with a large number of Catholics who have clearly and forthrightly exhibited these thought patterns. Now, the fact that the CCC does not teach these things explicitly is true. I am not making that assertion at all. However, the fact remains that numerous Catholics have clearly spelled out their understanding of Catholic belief. Their faith in the utter impeccability of their denomination is unquestioned, as is the dogma of papal infallibility. Likewise, their faith in the divine attributes of Mary (e.g. omnipresence, omniscience, perpetual virginity) is also unquestioned.

My objection is not that you, as a non-Catholic, don't believe in so much of Catholic doctrine. I would not expect you to. My objection is to the word you used, "deification." Because Catholics believe that there are saints in Heaven or that they can hear our prayers does not mean we think of any of them, including Mary, as a god.

 

[bbbbbbb]

My objection is not that you, as a non-Catholic, don't believe in so much of Catholic doctrine. I would not expect you to. My objection is to the word you used, "deification." Because Catholics believe that there are saints in Heaven or that they can hear our prayers does not mean we think of any of them, including Mary, as a god.

My difficulty is the fact that many of the Catholics I have interacted with firmly believe that Mary possesses many of the attributes that the Bible clearly limits to God alone. There is no doubt that Mary must possess the attribute of omnipresence as well as omniscience in order to be at Lourdes, France, not to mention every church and altar which is assigned to her. We might be willing to view her as the fourth member of the Godhead as the Cao Đài cult in Vietnam does. However, at best, if she does possess divine attributes she would be, technically, a demi-goddess.

 

[Valletta]

My difficulty is the fact that many of the Catholics I have interacted with firmly believe that Mary possesses many of the attributes that the Bible clearly limits to God alone. There is no doubt that Mary must possess the attribute of omnipresence as well as omniscience in order to be at Lourdes, France, not to mention every church and altar which is assigned to her. We might be willing to view her as the fourth member of the Godhead as the Cao Đài cult in Vietnam does. However, at best, if she does possess divine attributes she would be, technically, a demi-goddess.

As a Catholic I believe humans can appear in visions from God (Elijah and Moses come to mind). You may believe the Bible limits or prevents such appearances. Other Christians have a right to disagree. Stating that, according to your personal interpretation of the Bible, others in a different Christian religion worship other gods, essentially paganism, is not allowed.

 

[HIM]

To have another god is a grave sin. You would do much better to leave the judging of Catholics to Jesus. Jesus knows what is in the minds and hearts of Catholics and non-Catholics.

Judging Others​

Luke 6 37-42 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.” He also told them a parable: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one when he is fully taught will be like his teacher. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye. RSVCE

We cannnot condemn,but we can certainly judge what is right or wrong by God’s Spirit.

 

[bbbbbbb]

As a Catholic I believe humans can appear in visions from God (Elijah and Moses come to mind). You may believe the Bible limits or prevents such appearances. Other Christians have a right to disagree. Stating that, according to your personal interpretation of the Bible, others in a different Christian religion worship other gods, essentially paganism, is not allowed.

The Transfiguration narrative describes actual people, not a vision or a hologram of people. Moses and Elijah, who both were taken to heaven, came down from heaven in their actual bodies, not some fluff made up to create a vision. They were just a real as Jesus Christ was.

 

[Valletta]

The Transfiguration narrative describes actual people, not a vision or a hologram of people. Moses and Elijah, who both were taken to heaven, came down from heaven in their actual bodies, not some fluff made up to create a vision. They were just a real as Jesus Christ was.

When do you claim Moses went to Heaven? Who else do you think was there?

 

[bbbbbbb]

When do you claim Moses went to Heaven? Who else do you think was there?

Deuteronomy 34:1 Now Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is opposite Jericho. And the Lord showed him all the land, Gilead as far as Dan, 2 and all Naphtali and the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah as far as the western sea, 3 and the Negev and the plain in the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, as far as Zoar. 4 Then the Lord said to him, “This is the land which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants’; I have let you see it with your eyes, but you shall not go over there.” 5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. 6 And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day.

Enoch also ascended to heaven without dying. Genesis 5:21-24.

 

[Valletta]

Deuteronomy 34:1 Now Moses went up from the plains of Moab to Mount Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, which is opposite Jericho. And the Lord showed him all the land, Gilead as far as Dan, 2 and all Naphtali and the land of Ephraim and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah as far as the western sea, 3 and the Negev and the plain in the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, as far as Zoar. 4 Then the Lord said to him, “This is the land which I swore to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, saying, ‘I will give it to your descendants’; I have let you see it with your eyes, but you shall not go over there.” 5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. 6 And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day.

Enoch also ascended to heaven without dying. Genesis 5:21-24.

I don't see where it says that Moses went to Heaven or that Heaven was opened up for him. Why do you think he did? Do you maintain that Moses went to Heaven and Mary did not, thus an appearance of Moses is valid but not one of Mary?

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't see where it says that Moses went to Heaven or that Heaven was opened up for him. Why do you think he did? Do you maintain that Moses went to Heaven and Mary did not, thus an appearance of Moses is valid but not one of Mary?

It is really rather plain. Both Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus Christ on the mount of transfiguration. We know that Elijah ascended to heaven rather than dying. We can rightly understand that Moses was also in heaven and possessed his own body with which he came to meet with Jesus on the mount. If it was not Moses, then who was it?

As for Mary, there is nothing whatsoever in the Bible which even hints at her ascension into heaven. Any mention of such an event can only be found several centuries after the alleged event. This historic record stands along with other apocryphal works such as the gospel of Thomas and the gospel of Enoch and the Shepherd of Hermas, to mention only three more familiar ones. The bottom line is that if Mary ascended into heaven and it was the amazing event equivalent to the ascension of Jesus Christ, then the writer of the book of the Acts (Luke) as well as the authors of the epistles surely would have recorded it or referenced it in some manner, unless one happens to believe that they were merely ignorant of the event or did not see any particular significance in it.

 

[Valletta]

It is really rather plain. Both Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus Christ on the mount of transfiguration. We know that Elijah ascended to heaven rather than dying. We can rightly understand that Moses was also in heaven and possessed his own body with which he came to meet with Jesus on the mount. If it was not Moses, then who was it?

As for Mary, there is nothing whatsoever in the Bible which even hints at her ascension into heaven. Any mention of such an event can only be found several centuries after the alleged event. This historic record stands along with other apocryphal works such as the gospel of Thomas and the gospel of Enoch and the Shepherd of Hermas, to mention only three more familiar ones. The bottom line is that if Mary ascended into heaven and it was the amazing event equivalent to the ascension of Jesus Christ, then the writer of the book of the Acts (Luke) as well as the authors of the epistles surely would have recorded it or referenced it in some manner, unless one happens to believe that they were merely ignorant of the event or did not see any particular significance in it.

You are making assumptions that are not found in Holy Scripture. Indeed, there is no scene in the Bible that depicts Moses and Elijah in Heaven, while in Revelation there is a woman who is the mother of Jesus in Heaven. Some say this woman is Israel, I believe that is your interpretation even though Israel is not a woman. If Moses and Elijah were both in Heaven, do you believe the writers of the Bible "were merely ignorant of the event or did not see any particular significance in it?" How many people do you claim were in Heaven before the death of Jesus?

 

[bbbbbbb]

You are making assumptions that are not found in Holy Scripture. Indeed, there is no scene in the Bible that depicts Moses and Elijah in Heaven, while in Revelation there is a woman who is the mother of Jesus in Heaven. Some say this woman is Israel, I believe that is your interpretation even though Israel is not a woman. If Moses and Elijah were both in Heaven, do you believe the writers of the Bible "were merely ignorant of the event or did not see any particular significance in it?" How many people do you claim were in Heaven before the death of Jesus?

On the Mount of Transfiguration it is recorded that Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. Where did Moses and Elijah come from?

 

[Valletta]

On the Mount of Transfiguration it is recorded that Jesus appeared with Moses and Elijah. Where did Moses and Elijah come from?

I don't know, the Bible certainly doesn't say. How about answering my previous questions about your beliefs instead of answering a question with a question? Why is it OK for you, a Bible-only person, to speculate that Moses was taken up into Heaven although the Bible doesn't say, yet you deride Catholics for saying Mary was assumed into Heaven even though the mother of Jesus is depicted in Heaven in Revelation?

 

[bbbbbbb]

You are not answering my simple questions about your beliefs. Yet you seem quite eager to make accusations against Catholics.

What accusation is there in asking you where Moses and Elijah came from when they met with Jesus Christ on the mount of transfiguration?

 

[Valletta]

What accusation is there in asking you where Moses and Elijah came from when they met with Jesus Christ on the mount of transfiguration?

None. Here are my earlier unanswered questions:

If Moses and Elijah were both in Heaven, do you believe the writers of the Bible "were merely ignorant of the event or did not see any particular significance in it?" How many people do you claim were in Heaven before the death of Jesus?
Why is it OK for you, a Bible-only person, to speculate that Moses was taken up into Heaven although the Bible doesn't say, yet you deride Catholics for saying Mary was assumed into Heaven even though the mother of Jesus is depicted in Heaven in Revelation?

 

[bbbbbbb]

None. Here are my earlier unanswered questions:

If Moses and Elijah were both in Heaven, do you believe the writers of the Bible "were merely ignorant of the event or did not see any particular significance in it?" How many people do you claim were in Heaven before the death of Jesus?
Why is it OK for you, a Bible-only person, to speculate that Moses was taken up into Heaven although the Bible doesn't say, yet you deride Catholics for saying Mary was assumed into Heaven even though the mother of Jesus is depicted in Heaven in Revelation?

The writers of the Bible were certainly not ignorant or unconcerned about Moses and Elijah and Enoch being in heaven. That is why they recorded them in scripture for us. I have cited the relevant scriptures for that. Moreover, the writers of scripture found the ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven so marvelous that they recorded that event, as well. Unfortunately, for Catholic apologists, no such event is recorded for Mary.

I am not speculating at all about the fact that Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. We know that Elijah had been taken directly into heaven and, thus, had to come from heaven to meet with Jesus. With Moses it is not as definite, but we know that Moses must have been somewhere else before he came to meet with Jesus. There are two options - heaven or Sheol. It peculiar, to say the least, that the God who cared for Moses on Mount Nebo when Moses died decided to send Moses to Sheol. Likewise, Abraham, whose death and burial in Machpelah are distinctly recorded, is stated by Jesus as being in heaven when Jesus related the store of the rich man and Lazarus where Lazarus was resting in the bosom of Abraham and the rich man was in torment in hell.

The Mother of God is not depicted, as such, in the Revelation of John. Not to mention, how she got there bodily. There is not the slightest whiff in the New Testament about the ascension of Mary into heaven, nor, for that matter, until centuries later do we have any writings to that effect.

 

[Valletta]

The writers of the Bible were certainly not ignorant or unconcerned about Moses and Elijah and Enoch being in heaven. That is why they recorded them in scripture for us. I have cited the relevant scriptures for that. Moreover, the writers of scripture found the ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven so marvelous that they recorded that event, as well. Unfortunately, for Catholic apologists, no such event is recorded for Mary.

I am not speculating at all about the fact that Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus Christ on the Mount of Transfiguration. We know that Elijah had been taken directly into heaven and, thus, had to come from heaven to meet with Jesus. With Moses it is not as definite, but we know that Moses must have been somewhere else before he came to meet with Jesus. There are two options - heaven or Sheol. It peculiar, to say the least, that the God who cared for Moses on Mount Nebo when Moses died decided to send Moses to Sheol. Likewise, Abraham, whose death and burial in Machpelah are distinctly recorded, is stated by Jesus as being in heaven when Jesus related the store of the rich man and Lazarus where Lazarus was resting in the bosom of Abraham and the rich man was in torment in hell.

The Mother of God is not depicted, as such, in the Revelation of John. Not to mention, how she got there bodily. There is not the slightest whiff in the New Testament about the ascension of Mary into heaven, nor, for that matter, until centuries later do we have any writings to that effect.

You make a lot of assumptions. It is simply not stated in the Bible that Moses was taken up into Heaven. Nor does the Bible state that there were only two options for Moses. The liturgy shows us that Mary was assumed into Heaven. Yours is speculation about Moses.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You make a lot of assumptions. It is simply not stated in the Bible that Moses was taken up into Heaven. Nor does the Bible state that there were only two options for Moses. The liturgy shows us that Mary was assumed into Heaven. Yours is speculation about Moses.

Do you believe that Moses is burning in hell now?

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Lord inspires humans to write.
Humans write per Tradition.

St Mark and St Luke heard Tradition and wrote the Gospels on hearsay.
Hearsay aka oral is Tradition handed down.

The canon/Bible itself is Tradition in many ways.

But start with Luke and Mark to understand.