Taking Questions on Embedded Age Creation

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

You did not answer the question, did the ancient Jews make up Genesis to explain how they got there?

The ancient Jews told their history as they knew it.

That is because you are not Catholic or Orthodox, and therefore, have no consideration for the authority of the Church Fathers. Ask any Catholic, if the Church Fathers almost unanimously agree on a topic, is that held in high regard @armchairscholar?

My comment still stands.

Second, it is mentioned that things during creation were made fully actualized, therein lies our hypothesis.

No, embedded age is the claim. It's not a hypothesis of any sort. It's just a claim.

What is interesting is the refusal to cite biblical notation on this matter, if a discussion is to be had, it should be had with notation, rather than the dismissal mentality or "I don't need to show biblical evidence".

Well, since this isn't a formal debate nor even in the theology section either, I am under no pretense nor necessity to site the Bible. We're on the science subforum of the website, so you citing the Bible does nothing except show that you can cite the Bible.

 

[AveChristusRex]

The ancient Jews told their history as they knew it.

Therein lies your issue, the Bible teaches that God assisted in the writing of the Scriptures, your claim goes directly against 2 Timothy 3:16–17: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." And 2 Peter 1:20–21: "Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

Well, since this isn't a formal debate nor even in the theology section either, I am under no pretense nor necessity to site the Bible. We're on the science subforum of the website, so you citing the Bible does nothing except show that you can cite the Bible.

I'm sorry, I considered it profitable since we are on a Christian forum, and AV started the thread with a verse citation from 2 Peter.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Therein lies your issue, the Bible teaches that God assisted in the writing of the Scriptures, your claim goes directly against 2 Timothy 3:16–17: "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." And 2 Peter 1:20–21: "Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

And nowhere did I say that it wasn't inspired by God. Do you really think it wouldn't be if the very first sentence of the Old Testament reads: "In the beginning, GOD..."?

I'm sorry, I considered it profitable since we are on a Christian forum, and AV started the thread with a verse citation from 2 Peter.

And yet it's still the subforum of the website that is specifically set aside to talk about science. If you want to have a discussion about the theological ramifications and Biblical citations vis a vis embedded age, then there are segments of the website specifically for that sort of conversation.

 

[AveChristusRex]

And nowhere did I say that it wasn't inspired by God. Do you really think it wouldn't be if the very first sentence of the Old Testament reads: "In the beginning, GOD..."?



And yet it's still the subforum of the website that is specifically set aside to talk about science. If you want to have a discussion about the theological ramifications and Biblical citations vis a vis embedded age, then there are segments of the website specifically for that sort of conversation.

"The ancient Jews told their history as they knew it." and "nowhere did I say that it wasn't inspired by God" don't align, either the ancient Jews told their history as they [humans] knew it, or as God told them. It cannot be that the ancient Jews told their history as they [humans and God] knew it, as that is impossible, it must be one or the other. Either God told them the creation, and therefore, all knowledge was bestowed to them on that topic, or they made it up based on their knowledge.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

"The ancient Jews told their history as they knew it." and "nowhere did I say that it wasn't inspired by God" don't align, either the ancient Jews told their history as they [humans] knew it, or as God told them. It cannot be that the ancient Jews told their history as they [humans and God] knew it, as that is impossible, it must be one or the other. Either God told them the creation, and therefore, all knowledge was bestowed to them on that topic, or they made it up based on their knowledge.

Which then swings us back round to the main issue of the thread in that there is no support in the Bible for embedded age as a concept.

 

[AV1611VET]

IOW, given a choice between "maybe I'm mistaken" and "maybe God deceptively manipulated everything to make it look old for some unknown reason", they're like "I'll go with the convoluted one".

Other than you and Warden, who says "some unknown reason"?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Other than you and Warden, who says "some unknown reason"?

Have I ever said 'some unknown reason'? I don't think I have.

 

[AV1611VET]

The "appearance of age" argument creates a bigger theological problem than it solves.

In your opinion, would the "existence of age" do the same thing?

 

[AV1611VET]

Is there a verse saying Genesis is an allegory, without a massive amount of twisting?

Oh, you're a comedian, all right.

Why is he a comedian, when in almost every instance, the Bible alerts the reader that he is reading a parable, allegory, or vision?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Why is he a comedian, when in almost every instance, the Bible alerts the reader that he is reading a parable, allegory, or vision?

Because he was mocking what I said. At least that's how I read it.

 

[AveChristusRex]

Why is he a comedian, when in almost every instance, the Bible alerts the reader that he is reading a parable, allegory, or vision?

I pray I have defended the position well, though you have a better interpolation on this subject than I do AV; I do wish your messages were open so I could ask you questions on the position further, oh well!

 

[AV1611VET]

Have I ever said 'some unknown reason'? I don't think I have.

You bugged me to death for a reason, and I gave it to you over and over, explaining how aged rocks have an advantage over young rocks and vice versa.

But all you did was play the DOES NOT COMPUTE card, until I started ignoring your broken record.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

You bugged me to death for a reason, and I gave it to you over and over, explaining how aged rocks have an advantage over young rocks and vice versa.

But all you did was play the DOES NOT COMPUTE card, until I started ignoring your broken record.

No, I'm asking a genuine question because I do not think that I have used the phrase 'for some unknown reason' before. I might have but I can't be sure. I just want to set the matter straight on that topic.

 

[AV1611VET]

I pray I have defended the position well,

You have.

But people can't see it, because they have a mental block (called "evolution") that they can't get around.

Wait a post or two, and you'll be misquoted, misrepresented, or misunderstood.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

You have.

But people can't see it, because they have a mental block (called "evolution") that they can't get around.

Wait a post or two, and you'll be misquoted, misrepresented, or misunderstood.

Less 'evolution' and more 'a basic understanding of history', but when all you personally have is a hammer, AV...

 

[BCP1928]

The Church has never officially dogmatized a certain position, but the near-universal consensus of the Fathers shows YEC, and some of those Fathers feeling embedded age was a valid point even before the science, so this is not a desire to reconcile evidence, as the embedded age position came into consideration far before we even knew of most of the scientific evidence used against Genesis today.

But not entirely universal. Was Origen excommunicated? Was Augustine condemned for his speculation on the issue? Were they accused of "calling God a liar?" Was their faith in Christ denied as a pretense? Because that's what's happening now.

 

[River Jordan]

Other than you and Warden, who says "some unknown reason"?

Honestly, I've given up trying to get anything from you. You've posted enough "whatever" type replies to me that I decided to move on.

 

[AveChristusRex]

But not entirely universal. Was Origen excommunicated? Was Augustine condemned for his speculation on the issue? Were they accused of "calling God a liar?" Was their faith in Christ denied as a pretense? Because that's what's happening now.

I have not yet said that anyone is excommunicated, condemned, or anything such as in this discussion, in fact this discussion has been a defense of embedded age being biblical, not the other way around; I'm not sure where you got this idea from, but yes they were not.

 

[BCP1928]

I have not yet said that anyone is excommunicated, condemned, or anything such as in this discussion, in fact this discussion has been a defense of embedded age being biblical, not the other way around; I'm not sure where you got this idea from, but yes they were not.

I wouldn't expect it from a Catholic, though you did use the "calling God a liar" line which is a familiar anti-Traditional Christian polemic in this forum.

 

[AveChristusRex]

I wouldn't expect it from a Catholic, though you did use the "calling God a liar" line which is a familiar anti-Traditional Christian polemic in this forum.

No bad will was intended in saying that, but saying that God was contrary to himself, and told the ancient Israelites wrong or faulty information is rather spurious