The place of Sacred Tradition in the first Church Council.

[Xeno.of.athens]

Then why do Catholics practice the unscriptural traditions I listed?

They are not unscriptural.

 

[ozso]

They are not unscriptural.

The only scriptural support is achieved through eisegesis.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The only scriptural support is achieved through eisegesis.

So you opine, but who are you? You are not likely to set the doctrinal standards for any denomination unless you create one yourself, so your dismissal of the teaching of the Catholic Church is not likely to carry much weight.

 

[ozso]

Really? What about Jewish prayers for the dead and what about 2 Maccabees 12? You would benefit from reading a Catholic bible instead of sticking to the Jewish Tanakh + New Testament that most Protestants use.

Gotta admit, that's a new one. Up until now Catholics have only given me the "dream a sort of vision" of Jeremiah described in 2 Maccabees 15.

2 Maccabees 12 talks about praying for the dead though, not conversing with the dead.

For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be delivered from their sin. 2 Maccabees 12:44-45

 

[ozso]

So you opine, but who are you? You are not likely to set the doctrinal standards for any denomination unless you create one yourself, so your dismissal of the teaching of the Catholic Church is not likely to carry much weight.

You know perfectly well I'm far from being the only one who has pointed it out. Please try not to get personal. Play the ball, not the other player.

 

[ozso]

Wasn't your own argument all about semantics? Honestly, how can I have a conversation with you when on one hand you say that worship and venerate are the same thing when in fact they are not and when I point that out you accuse me of arguing semantics!

It's an argument of semantics either way. "We don't play football, we just engage in the sport".

 

[Bob Crowley]

I've seen that posted by other Catholics several times in other threads. And my response is no one ever communicated with anyone who died in all of scripture. Except for when Saul contacted Samuel through witchcraft. Every single example of prayer is directed towards God the Father alone. Catholocism also cites Psalm 103:20. Ironic using scripture to explain the institution of unscriptural practices. Even though it fails to do so.
Communing with the dead is a practice that was instituted by the magisterium well after the time of the Apostles.

Christ spoke with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration.

They'd been dead for centuries, although Elijah was "assumed" into heaven via the fiery chariot. An argument could be made that Moses was also "assumed" since his body could not be found.

Revelation supports prayer to the saints. Mind you God is the one who answers prayer, but He is going to listen with a more attentive ear to those who have shown their loyalty to Him, sometimes by being martyrs.

The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints

Most "Bible-believing" Christians object to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints. Here is how to respond to the most common objections.

www.catholic.com

Does the Bible say we should approach the saints with our prayers? Yes, in two places. In Revelation 5:8 John saw the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on a throne in the midst of four beasts and 24 elders. When the Lamb took the book with the seven seals, the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb in worship, “each one having a harp and golden bowls of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.”

Similarly, in Revelation 8:3-4 we are told that something similar happened when the Lamb opened the seventh seal of the book: “Another angel came and stood on the altar, having a golden censer, and many incenses were given to him, in order that he will give it with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne. And the smoke of the incenses went up with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.”

We're surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. They know what's going on, and if we ask them to pray on our behalf, I fail to see why they can't. God is the God of the living, not of the dead.

Do you ask your friends to pray for you? If God won't listen to the prayers we offer via the saints, why should He listen to your friends' prayers?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

2 Maccabees 12 talks about praying for the dead though, not conversing with the dead.

Conversing with the "dead"? I haven't met a single Catholic who claims to have two-way conversations with the saints.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The only scriptural support is achieved through eisegesis.

You know perfectly well I'm far from being the only one who has pointed it out. Please try not to get personal. Play the ball, not the other player.

You offered an opinion, no evidence.

 

[BobRyan]

While what you wrote is mostly true it nevertheless misses the point that Saint Peter's vision was not yet written down as scripture, the book of The Acts of the Apostles was not yet written

Agreed. In fact from Adam to Moses there was no scripture written down. It was all handed down in addition to divine revelation given all along the way.

But modern concepts of "Tradition" typically do not include claims to divine revelation/vision simply be "reported" down the line.

Rather the modern version is like the one in Mark 7 where stuff is being made up as if it is "a good idea" and no claim at all is made to simply reporting a divine revelation.

6 But He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy about you hypocrites, as it is written:

‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 And in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘The one who speaks evil of father or mother, is certainly to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a person says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is, given to God),’ 12 you no longer allow him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thereby invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Jesus does not say their tradition came from God or was in fallible. But they held that their tradition was infallible.

I am not saying that all tradition is bad. But it cannot be accepted simply because it is said, or held by someone to be infallibly correct. It has to be tested.

, so saint Peter's vision was Sacred Tradition handed down by word of mouth and it was the decisive argument in the council.

I agree and more than that - in this case it is the prophet (Peter) who actually had the vision - who is being heard.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It's an argument of semantics either way. "We don't play football, we just engage in the sport".

Have a look at a dictionary.

 

[ozso]

Christ spoke with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration.

They'd been dead for centuries, although Elijah was "assumed" into heaven via the fiery chariot. An argument could be made that Moses was also "assumed" since his body could not be found.

Revelation supports prayer to the saints. Mind you God is the one who answers prayer, but He is going to listen with a more attentive ear to those who have shown their loyalty to Him, sometimes by being martyrs.

The Bible Supports Praying to the Saints

Most "Bible-believing" Christians object to the Catholic practice of praying to the saints. Here is how to respond to the most common objections.

www.catholic.com

We're surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. They know what's going on, and if we ask them to pray on our behalf, I fail to see why they can't. God is the God of the living, not of the dead.

Do you ask your friends to pray for you? If God won't listen to the prayers we offer via the saints, why should He listen to your friends' prayers?

I'm familiar with all that. What's known for certain is Jesus gave us a lot of instruction regarding prayer. And the theme throughout it is, go to your Father, go to your Father, go to your Father. To continuously go to your Father in prayer. To be fervent and persistent in your prayers to your Father. Paul instructs on prayer. John instructs us on prayer. Peter instructs us on prayer. James instructs us on prayer. Luke tells us a about how prayers went in Acts. There's a boatload of instructions and examples on prayer.

But for some reason all of that, and there's a lot, wasn't good enough. So it was instituted a lot later on that that we also need to go to Mary in prayer, a lot. And any number of others. And the scriptural backing for that is quite scant and indirect compared to all of the clear detailed direct actual instruction we've received. It comes off as "how can we try to make this sound biblical?".

What's wrong with sticking to just following the clear, direct and detailed instructions on prayer given to us by Jesus, John, Peter, Paul, and James?

 

[ozso]

Have a look at a dictionary.

Already did.

 

[ozso]

You offered an opinion, no evidence.

Okay then apparently I'm the only person earth who has ever pointed those things out.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm familiar with all that. What's known for certain is Jesus gave us a lot of instruction regarding prayer.

What's this? Arguing for the sake of it?

Jesus did speak with Moses and Elijah and Moses definitely died and Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus and three apostles witnessed it both seeing Moses and Elijah and hearing their conversation with Jesus. So stop arguing that they are dead and unable to communicate, that's the sort of soul-sleep like nonsense we hear from some of the Millennialist sects.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Already did.

Now apply what is said in the dictionary.

ven·er·ate
[ˈvɛnəreɪt]
verb
venerate (verb) · venerates (third person present) · venerated (past tense) · venerated (past participle) · venerating (present participle)

1. regard with great respect; revere:
   "Philip of Beverley was venerated as a saint"

wor·ship
[ˈwəːʃɪp]
noun

1. the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity:
   "worship of the Mother Goddess" · "ancestor worship"
   Similar:
   reverence
   revering
   worshipping
   veneration
2. BRITISH ENGLISH
   (His/Your Worship)
   used in addressing or referring to an important or high-ranking person, especially a magistrate or mayor:
   "we were soon joined by His Worship the Mayor"

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Okay then apparently I'm the only person earth who has ever pointed those things out.

You may as well be since you are the one making a fuss about it here.

 

[ozso]

What's this? Arguing for the sake of it?

Jesus did speak with Moses and Elijah and Moses definitely died and Moses and Elijah spoke with Jesus and three apostles witnesses it both seeing Moses and Elijah and hearing their conversation with Jesus. So stop arguing that they are dead and unable to communicate, that's the sort of soul-sleep like nonsense we hear from some of the Millennialist sects.

In His many detailed instructions to us on payer, Jesus keeps telling us over and over again to go persistently to our Father. Without the slightest hint whatsoever that we are to diverge from that in any way whatsoever.

 

[ozso]

You may as well be since you are the one making a fuss about it here.

Ah so I'm the only person on CF who's ever said these kinds of things. Is that what you're claiming? That I'm the only one who's ever made a fuss about it on CF? Really?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

In His many detailed instructions to us on payer, Jesus keeps telling us over and over again to go persistently to our Father. Without the slightest hint whatsoever that we are to diverge from that in any way whatsoever.

Well, Jesus spoke with Moses and Elijah didn't he! So stop pretending that the saints are incommunicado.