John N. Oswalt, NIVAC or NIV Application Commentary on Isaiah 14 and the Underworld

[Job 33:6]

@CoreyD

The underworld,

Oxford dictionary:
The mythical abode of the dead, imagined as being under the earth;

Merriam Webster:
The place of departed souls

Cambridge dictionary:
The place under the Earth where the spirits of the Dead go.

Corey, based on our prior conversations, it sounds as though you deny the idea of an underworld in the Bible. In response, I’d like to explore Sheol’s depiction as a cosmic underworld, A place under the Earth where spirits of the Dead go, their abode, through scriptural and scholarly perspectives:

In the NIV Application Commentary on Isaiah, by John Oswalt, Chapter 14 includes the header "The Underworld (14:9-11) and I thought I might share some snippets with you.

Isaiah 14:9-11 NIV
[9] The realm of the dead [Hebrew: Sheol] below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations. [10] They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.” [11] All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.

Quote:
The picture changes from the earth to the underworld (NIV, "the grave"; Heb Sheol). In place of the peace that the tyrant's death has brought to the earth, the underworld is in an uproar. All the kings have been sitting on their thrones. Now they rise, stretching their necks to get a glimpse of this newcomer. He is the one who sneeringly sent them on their way to this grim and dusty place, and now he has come to join them! In the end, he is no stronger than they were. He could no more prevent his death than they could theirs.

Verse 11 is a masterpiece of sarcasm and irony. We see a funeral celebration where a gorgeously bedecked bier is carried past with "pomp" and lovely music played by "harps" and other instruments. "Beautiful," we say. Then the picture suddenly changes. All is deathly still, and we see that the beautiful bier and its coverings are nothing but a writhing mass of "maggots." Human pretension is no match for the grim reality of death and decay.

Recordings by Oswalt on Isaiah can be found at 47 minutes and 10 seconds into the following video:

Any comments here? @CoreyD Why would this be anything but the depiction of an underworld, a place where spirits of the dead are together, under the earth (though figurative or poetic in nature)?

Additionally, I'd like to share a snippet from the Faithlife Study Bible in a section titled "Old Testament Theology and the Afterlife":

Cosmic Sheol was the lowest place imaginable: the cosmological waters under the earth (Job 26:5). Contrasts between words like "pit" and the "highest heavens," where God dwells, capture this idea (Deuteronomy 32:22, Deuteronomy 32:32, Isaiah 7:11; Amos 9:2; Psalms 86:13; Psalms 139:8; Job 11:8; Ezekiel 31:14-18). Jonah 2:3-6 is especially illuminating, as Sheol is partnered with other terms rich with cosmological meaning: sea (yam/yammim), river (nahar), waves (gallim), waters (mayim), and the deep (tehom), The biblical text occasionally makes it clear that sheol refers to something other than the physical grave by indicating its capacity, its vast breadth and depth to hold the dead (Proverbs 27:20; Isaiah 5:14; Habakkuk 2:5), or its bars and gates to prevent escape (Job 17:16; Job 38:17; Isaiah 38:10; Psalms 9:14; Psalms 107:18; Compare Matthew 16:18).

Mesopotamian parallels refer to sheol as a watery, cadaverous existence from which the listless dead long to escape.

End Quote

Sheol is depicted as a cosmic underworld, far more than a mere shallow grave. Numerous passages contrast the highest heavens with the deepest depths, emphasizing its supernatural nature:

Psalm 139:8: "If I ascend to heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there."

Amos 9:2: "If they dig into Sheol, from there shall My hand take them; if they climb up to heaven, from there I will bring them down."

Psalm 86:13: "For great is Your mercy toward me, and You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol."

Jonah 2:6: "I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever, at the roots of the mountains."

Jonah explicitly cries out "from the belly of Sheol," describing gates, bars, and the land beneath the mountains, imagery far removed from a simple grave. Similarly, Job 11:8-9 states, "Deeper than Sheol, what can you know?" implying its unknowable depths.

Theologically, Sheol is the geographical and metaphysical opposite of heaven. Descriptions of its insatiable hunger, spirits, and inescapable gates align with ancient views of the underworld in Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Canaan/Ugarit. To dismiss Sheol as merely a grave undermines the depth and reach of these biblical and cultural concepts.

And to be clear, I don't deny that some verses on Sheol appear to simply refer to it as a physical grave. However, the question is, is Sheol, in the sense of an underworld, in the old testament (elsewhere and in other passages)? Of course it is. The Bible is very plain and direct about this.

 

[Job 33:6]

And I have to inquire about this as well:

1 Samuel 28:3-15 ESV
[3] Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the necromancers out of the land. [4] The Philistines assembled and came and encamped at Shunem. And Saul gathered all Israel, and they encamped at Gilboa. [5] When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. [6] And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets. [7] Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at En-dor.” [8] So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments and went, he and two men with him. And they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Divine for me by a spirit and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you.” [9] The woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the necromancers from the land. Why then are you laying a trap for my life to bring about my death?” [10] But Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” [11] Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” [12] When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” [13] The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” [14] He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. [15] Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”

If there were no underworld in the old testament, wouldn't it seem strange that a medium might bring Samuel, in spirit form as an elohim (god) "up" and "out of the earth"?

Where did he come from, if not an underworld?

1 Samuel 2:6 ESV
[6] The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Saul was in Gilboa. Not in Ramah where Samuel was buried. So Saul and the necromancer/medium were not even in the same area of Sauls grave. And yet, Saul comes up and out of the earth.

Who could read a story like this, or the one in Isaiah, and conclude that sheol is merely a grave and not a place in which spirits dwell that is under the earth (the underworld)?

 

[Zaha Torte]

@CoreyD

The underworld,

Oxford dictionary:
The mythical abode of the dead, imagined as being under the earth;

Merriam Webster:
The place of departed souls

Cambridge dictionary:
The place under the Earth where the spirits of the Dead go.

Corey, based on our prior conversations, it sounds as though you deny the idea of an underworld in the Bible. In response, I’d like to explore Sheol’s depiction as a cosmic underworld, A place under the Earth where spirits of the Dead go, their abode, through scriptural and scholarly perspectives:

In the NIV Application Commentary on Isaiah, by John Oswalt, Chapter 14 includes the header "The Underworld (14:9-11) and I thought I might share some snippets with you.

Isaiah 14:9-11 NIV
[9] The realm of the dead [Hebrew: Sheol] below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations. [10] They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.” [11] All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.

Quote:
The picture changes from the earth to the underworld (NIV, "the grave"; Heb Sheol). In place of the peace that the tyrant's death has brought to the earth, the underworld is in an uproar. All the kings have been sitting on their thrones. Now they rise, stretching their necks to get a glimpse of this newcomer. He is the one who sneeringly sent them on their way to this grim and dusty place, and now he has come to join them! In the end, he is no stronger than they were. He could no more prevent his death than they could theirs.

Verse 11 is a masterpiece of sarcasm and irony. We see a funeral celebration where a gorgeously bedecked bier is carried past with "pomp" and lovely music played by "harps" and other instruments. "Beautiful," we say. Then the picture suddenly changes. All is deathly still, and we see that the beautiful bier and its coverings are nothing but a writhing mass of "maggots." Human pretension is no match for the grim reality of death and decay.

Recordings by Oswalt on Isaiah can be found at 47 minutes and 10 seconds into the following video:

Any comments here? @CoreyD Why would this be anything but the depiction of an underworld, a place where spirits of the dead are together, under the earth (though figurative or poetic in nature)?

Additionally, I'd like to share a snippet from the Faithlife Study Bible in a section titled "Old Testament Theology and the Afterlife":

Cosmic Sheol was the lowest place imaginable: the cosmological waters under the earth (Job 26:5). Contrasts between words like "pit" and the "highest heavens," where God dwells, capture this idea (Deuteronomy 32:22, Deuteronomy 32:32, Isaiah 7:11; Amos 9:2; Psalms 86:13; Psalms 139:8; Job 11:8; Ezekiel 31:14-18). Jonah 2:3-6 is especially illuminating, as Sheol is partnered with other terms rich with cosmological meaning: sea (yam/yammim), river (nahar), waves (gallim), waters (mayim), and the deep (tehom), The biblical text occasionally makes it clear that sheol refers to something other than the physical grave by indicating its capacity, its vast breadth and depth to hold the dead (Proverbs 27:20; Isaiah 5:14; Habakkuk 2:5), or its bars and gates to prevent escape (Job 17:16; Job 38:17; Isaiah 38:10; Psalms 9:14; Psalms 107:18; Compare Matthew 16:18).

Mesopotamian parallels refer to sheol as a watery, cadaverous existence from which the listless dead long to escape.

End Quote

Sheol is depicted as a cosmic underworld, far more than a mere shallow grave. Numerous passages contrast the highest heavens with the deepest depths, emphasizing its supernatural nature:

Psalm 139:8: "If I ascend to heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there."

Amos 9:2: "If they dig into Sheol, from there shall My hand take them; if they climb up to heaven, from there I will bring them down."

Psalm 86:13: "For great is Your mercy toward me, and You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol."

Jonah 2:6: "I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever, at the roots of the mountains."

Jonah explicitly cries out "from the belly of Sheol," describing gates, bars, and the land beneath the mountains, imagery far removed from a simple grave. Similarly, Job 11:8-9 states, "Deeper than Sheol, what can you know?" implying its unknowable depths.

Theologically, Sheol is the geographical and metaphysical opposite of heaven. Descriptions of its insatiable hunger, spirits, and inescapable gates align with ancient views of the underworld in Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Canaan/Ugarit. To dismiss Sheol as merely a grave undermines the depth and reach of these biblical and cultural concepts.

And to be clear, I don't deny that some verses on Sheol appear to simply refer to it as a physical grave. However, the question is, is Sheol, in the sense of an underworld, in the old testament (elsewhere and in other passages)? Of course it is. The Bible is very plain and direct about this.

The Spirit World - Paradise, Prison and Hell - where the spirits of Man await the time of their Resurrection from the dead and the Judgment.

 

[CoreyD]

@CoreyD

The underworld,

Oxford dictionary:
The mythical abode of the dead, imagined as being under the earth;

Merriam Webster:
The place of departed souls

Cambridge dictionary:
The place under the Earth where the spirits of the Dead go.

Corey, based on our prior conversations, it sounds as though you deny the idea of an underworld in the Bible. In response, I’d like to explore Sheol’s depiction as a cosmic underworld, A place under the Earth where spirits of the Dead go, their abode, through scriptural and scholarly perspectives:

In the NIV Application Commentary on Isaiah, by John Oswalt, Chapter 14 includes the header "The Underworld (14:9-11) and I thought I might share some snippets with you.

Isaiah 14:9-11 NIV
[9] The realm of the dead [Hebrew: Sheol] below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations. [10] They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.” [11] All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.

Quote:
The picture changes from the earth to the underworld (NIV, "the grave"; Heb Sheol). In place of the peace that the tyrant's death has brought to the earth, the underworld is in an uproar. All the kings have been sitting on their thrones. Now they rise, stretching their necks to get a glimpse of this newcomer. He is the one who sneeringly sent them on their way to this grim and dusty place, and now he has come to join them! In the end, he is no stronger than they were. He could no more prevent his death than they could theirs.

Verse 11 is a masterpiece of sarcasm and irony. We see a funeral celebration where a gorgeously bedecked bier is carried past with "pomp" and lovely music played by "harps" and other instruments. "Beautiful," we say. Then the picture suddenly changes. All is deathly still, and we see that the beautiful bier and its coverings are nothing but a writhing mass of "maggots." Human pretension is no match for the grim reality of death and decay.

Recordings by Oswalt on Isaiah can be found at 47 minutes and 10 seconds into the following video:

Any comments here? @CoreyD Why would this be anything but the depiction of an underworld, a place where spirits of the dead are together, under the earth (though figurative or poetic in nature)?

Additionally, I'd like to share a snippet from the Faithlife Study Bible in a section titled "Old Testament Theology and the Afterlife":

Cosmic Sheol was the lowest place imaginable: the cosmological waters under the earth (Job 26:5). Contrasts between words like "pit" and the "highest heavens," where God dwells, capture this idea (Deuteronomy 32:22, Deuteronomy 32:32, Isaiah 7:11; Amos 9:2; Psalms 86:13; Psalms 139:8; Job 11:8; Ezekiel 31:14-18). Jonah 2:3-6 is especially illuminating, as Sheol is partnered with other terms rich with cosmological meaning: sea (yam/yammim), river (nahar), waves (gallim), waters (mayim), and the deep (tehom), The biblical text occasionally makes it clear that sheol refers to something other than the physical grave by indicating its capacity, its vast breadth and depth to hold the dead (Proverbs 27:20; Isaiah 5:14; Habakkuk 2:5), or its bars and gates to prevent escape (Job 17:16; Job 38:17; Isaiah 38:10; Psalms 9:14; Psalms 107:18; Compare Matthew 16:18).

Mesopotamian parallels refer to sheol as a watery, cadaverous existence from which the listless dead long to escape.

End Quote

Sheol is depicted as a cosmic underworld, far more than a mere shallow grave. Numerous passages contrast the highest heavens with the deepest depths, emphasizing its supernatural nature:

Psalm 139:8: "If I ascend to heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there."

Amos 9:2: "If they dig into Sheol, from there shall My hand take them; if they climb up to heaven, from there I will bring them down."

Psalm 86:13: "For great is Your mercy toward me, and You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol."

Jonah 2:6: "I went down to the land whose bars closed upon me forever, at the roots of the mountains."

Jonah explicitly cries out "from the belly of Sheol," describing gates, bars, and the land beneath the mountains, imagery far removed from a simple grave. Similarly, Job 11:8-9 states, "Deeper than Sheol, what can you know?" implying its unknowable depths.

Theologically, Sheol is the geographical and metaphysical opposite of heaven. Descriptions of its insatiable hunger, spirits, and inescapable gates align with ancient views of the underworld in Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Canaan/Ugarit. To dismiss Sheol as merely a grave undermines the depth and reach of these biblical and cultural concepts.

And to be clear, I don't deny that some verses on Sheol appear to simply refer to it as a physical grave. However, the question is, is Sheol, in the sense of an underworld, in the old testament (elsewhere and in other passages)? Of course it is. The Bible is very plain and direct about this.

So, I have one question to start.
Is Sheol an underworld of the living dead humans... not animals, or the grave of mankind?
It's either one or the other.

Hopefully, by now, you saw my other thread.
It's either a lie, or the truth. It cannot be both, and there is a sure way of identifying the lie - Identify the truth.
To identify counterfeit money, one has to be able to identify real money.

So, what is the truth?
Is Sheol the common grave of mankind - the early Israelites apparently believed that the graves of family, or tribe, all united into one, collectively unified "grave", and that this is what the Biblical Hebrew term Sheol refers to: the common grave of humans. or a place where the dead are living on?

 

[CoreyD]

And I have to inquire about this as well:

1 Samuel 28:3-15 ESV
[3] Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the necromancers out of the land. [4] The Philistines assembled and came and encamped at Shunem. And Saul gathered all Israel, and they encamped at Gilboa. [5] When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. [6] And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets. [7] Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at En-dor.” [8] So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments and went, he and two men with him. And they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Divine for me by a spirit and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you.” [9] The woman said to him, “Surely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the necromancers from the land. Why then are you laying a trap for my life to bring about my death?” [10] But Saul swore to her by the Lord, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.” [11] Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” [12] When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul.” [13] The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” [14] He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. [15] Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”

If there were no underworld in the old testament, wouldn't it seem strange that a medium might bring Samuel, in spirit form as an elohim (god) "up" and "out of the earth"?

Where did he come from, if not an underworld?

1 Samuel 2:6 ESV
[6] The Lord kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Saul was in Gilboa. Not in Ramah where Samuel was buried. So Saul and the necromancer/medium were not even in the same area of Sauls grave. And yet, Saul comes up and out of the earth.

Who could read a story like this, or the one in Isaiah, and conclude that sheol is merely a grave and not a place in which spirits dwell that is under the earth (the underworld)?

Thanks for starting a thread on the topic.
I didn't know you were going to, but nonetheless, I still would have addressed that subject here, since I want to take this a bit further.
So go there for the response to this.

 

[CoreyD]

The Spirit World - Paradise, Prison and Hell - where the spirits of Man await the time of their Resurrection from the dead and the Judgment.

Did you mean the spirit of man, or the soul?
What is resurrected... spirits, or souls?
do you have any Bible verses to share with your answer?

 

[Job 33:6]

So, I have one question to start.
Is Sheol an underworld of the living dead humans... not animals, or the grave of mankind?
It's either one or the other.

The claim that Sheol must be "either an underworld of the living dead or the grave of mankind" oversimplifies the biblical portrayal. Sheol can encompass:

1. A general term for the realm of the dead.
2. A figurative concept representing separation from God or life. And;
3. An actual grave where the body rests.

The interpretation often depends on the context of the passage. For example:

1. Grave-like: In Job 17:13-16, Sheol is associated with physical burial.
2. Underworld-like: In Isaiah 14:9-11, it is portrayed as a place of shadowy existence where spirits converse with one another.

Sheol in the Bible is not strictly one or the other (underworld vs. grave). It serves as a multi-faceted concept that reflects the ancient Hebrew understanding of death and the afterlife:

It is neither the vivid, mythological underworld of living dead humans (as seen in Greek or Mesopotamian traditions) nor exclusively the physical grave of mankind.

Instead, it is a poetic and theological term for the realm of the dead, often described as a place of silence, darkness, and separation from life.

Hopefully, by now, you saw my other thread.
It's either a lie, or the truth. It cannot be both, and there is a sure way of identifying the lie - Identify the truth.
To identify counterfeit money, one has to be able to identify real money.

So, what is the truth?
Is Sheol the common grave of mankind - the early Israelites apparently believed that the graves of family, or tribe, all united into one, collectively unified "grave", and that this is what the Biblical Hebrew term Sheol refers to: the common grave of humans. or a place where the dead are living on?

See above.

Quite frankly, the Bible passages speak for themselves. Just read that section of Isaiah. It says what it says.

Isaiah 14:9-11 NIV
[9] The realm of the dead [Hebrew: Sheol] below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations. [10] They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.” [11] All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.

 

[Zaha Torte]

Did you mean the spirit of man, or the soul?

The Soul of Man is the combination of their spiritual and physical bodies - which is why Adam became a "living soul" after God breathed life into him (Genesis 2:7) - or in other words - placed Adam's spiritual body into his physical body - for we know that all spirits come from God (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

What is resurrected... spirits, or souls?

Technically both.

The Resurrection of the Dead is a reference to the spiritual body returning to the physical body - becoming a "living soul" again - the corruption being raised in incorruption (1 Corinthians 15:42)

This is the universal promise made by the Lord Jesus Christ to all Mankind - the sting being removed from death and the victory over the grave (1 Corinthians 15:55) - and us being raised in the likeness of His Resurrection (Romans 6:5)

The Resurrection of the Dead will take place before the Judgment described in Revelation 20.

do you have any Bible verses to share with your answer?

These are the only locations or conditions referenced in the scriptures where the spirits of Man go or suffer before the Judgment described in Revelation 20.

Paradise -

The Lord Jesus Christ promised the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day (Luke 23:43)

Paul spoke about how he knew a man who had been "caught up" into Paradise where he heard many unspeakable words (2 Corinthians 12:4)

In Revelation 2:7 the Lord claims that those who "overcometh" (I assume this means overcoming the world if it is a reference to John 5) will eat of the Tree of Life in Paradise.

Prison -

Peter claimed that the Lord Jesus Christ went and preached to the spirits in Prison after He had been put to death (1 Peter 3:19)

Revelation 20:5 claims that after Satan is bound - that the dead would not live again until a thousand years were finished - and it claims that this is a reference to the "first resurrection" - indictating that there will be more than one.

Verse 7 refers to Satan being bound for a thousand years in his prison - yet he will be released before the Battle of Gog and Magog - or the Final Battle - before being cast into the lake of fire - right before the Judgment.

Hell -

I would assume that the existence of Hell needs no reference - but I will point out that Revelation 20 explains that those in Hell - along with all the dead - small and great - will be delivered up to stand before God to be Judged.

And this happens before any of those Judged would be cast into the lake of fire - which is the second death.

 

[CoreyD]

The Soul of Man is the combination of their spiritual and physical bodies - which is why Adam became a "living soul" after God breathed life into him (Genesis 2:7) - or in other words - placed Adam's spiritual body into his physical body - for we know that all spirits come from God (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

Are you saying that without the body, one is not a dead soul?
I don't get that from the word nephesh.
Genesis 2:7 says "living nephesh: soul, life, self, person, heart, creature, mind, being
A being that is in existence is living. A being that is not in existence, is dead, but they are still alive to God, and that person is remembered and will be resurrected.

What about angels? Are you saying then, that angels are not beings?
What does God give a body to, when one is raised from the dead, if it's not the person - soul, that has died?

Technically both.

The Resurrection of the Dead is a reference to the spiritual body returning to the physical body - becoming a "living soul" again - the corruption being raised in incorruption (1 Corinthians 15:42)

1 Corinthians 15:42 says it is the dead that are raise up.
Note, that it did not say the spirit, but the dead. What is raised up? Not the body. Not the spirit, but the person that has died - the soul.

In the same book of 1 Corinthians 15, all the resurrected are referred to as persons that will come to life.
Some people think man has a spirit living in him, but does the Bible not say, that the spirit returns to God, who gave it - Ecclesiastes 12:7, and when God takes away the spirit, man dies - Psalm 104:29. What happens when God gives the spirit? They live - Psalm 104:30.
That's how Adam came to live.

Spirit is like breath, but more than that. Job 33:4
For the Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.

This is the universal promise made by the Lord Jesus Christ to all Mankind - the sting being removed from death and the victory over the grave (1 Corinthians 15:55) - and us being raised in the likeness of His Resurrection (Romans 6:5)

The Resurrection of the Dead will take place before the Judgment described in Revelation 20.

These are the only locations or conditions referenced in the scriptures where the spirits of Man go or suffer before the Judgment described in Revelation 20.

Paradise -

The Lord Jesus Christ promised the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in Paradise that very day (Luke 23:43)

This verse is misrepresented, because
it is imagined that Jesus and the thief went anywhere but in the grave, on that day.

Paul spoke about how he knew a man who had been "caught up" into Paradise where he heard many unspeakable words (2 Corinthians 12:4)

The word is harpazó: To seize, snatch, take away by force.
No one can tell us what this Paradise is. Perhaps you can tell me.

In Revelation 2:7 the Lord claims that those who "overcometh" (I assume this means overcoming the world if it is a reference to John 5) will eat of the Tree of Life in Paradise.

Again, this scripture is misrepresented.
So many have their interpretations.
Which verse in John 5 are you assuming?

Prison -

Peter claimed that the Lord Jesus Christ went and preached to the spirits in Prison after He had been put to death (1 Peter 3:19)

Tartarus. Persons claim this is a place for human spirits, but is that the case... or are these spirits the wicked angels that rebelled against God, in Noah's day.

Revelation 20:5 claims that after Satan is bound - that the dead would not live again until a thousand years were finished - and it claims that this is a reference to the "first resurrection" - indictating that there will be more than one.

I think you misread that.
That's okay, but the rest of the dead not coming to life is not in reference to the first resurrection.
One can be dead spiritually as well.

Verse 7 refers to Satan being bound for a thousand years in his prison - yet he will be released before the Battle of Gog and Magog - or the Final Battle - before being cast into the lake of fire - right before the Judgment.

This is not related to humans.
Prison for Satan would only mean being bound or restrained by God.
They are not related to the subject at hand, though.

Hell -

I would assume that the existence of Hell needs no reference - but I will point out that Revelation 20 explains that those in Hell - along with all the dead - small and great - will be delivered up to stand before God to be Judged.

And this happens before any of those Judged would be cast into the lake of fire - which is the second death.

The Greek word Hades, is translated as hell, pit, and grave, in some translation.
How do you know what hell is, if there is that much inconsistency?


How are any of these related to the underworld though. I don't think you explained.

 

[Job 33:6]

The Greek word Hades, is translated as hell, pit, and grave, in some translation.
How do you know what hell is, if there is that much inconsistency?

I like this part of your response here. And the part about the angels of 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 being referenced in 1 Peter.

It is interesting that the angels are bound in chains until judgement day in Tartarus, this place of a Greek underworld.

But through the ages, this topic presents itself differently, and that's ok. The Bible need not be consistent on this because different authors lived and different times and described the afterlife in different ways.

And it doesn't actually present a contradiction. Rather it could simply be understood as a sort of progressive revelation. Just like how Jesus isn't specifically mentioned in the old testament, but the new testament authors receive further revelation in their age and time and thus the new testament speaks more directly of Jesus, while the old testament moreso is simply referenced by the new testament authors, looking back on it.

 

[CoreyD]

The claim that Sheol must be "either an underworld of the living dead or the grave of mankind" oversimplifies the biblical portrayal. Sheol can encompass:

1. A general term for the realm of the dead.
2. A figurative concept representing separation from God or life. And;
3. An actual grave where the body rests.

The interpretation often depends on the context of the passage. For example:

1. Grave-like: In Job 17:13-16, Sheol is associated with physical burial.
2. Underworld-like: In Isaiah 14:9-11, it is portrayed as a place of shadowy existence where spirits converse with one another.

Sheol in the Bible is not strictly one or the other (underworld vs. grave). It serves as a multi-faceted concept that reflects the ancient Hebrew understanding of death and the afterlife:

Interesting... and when did you come up with this idea, after this comment J?

Any comments here? @CoreyD Why would this be anything but the depiction of an underworld, a place where spirits of the dead are together, under the earth (though figurative or poetic in nature)?

It is neither the vivid, mythological underworld of living dead humans (as seen in Greek or Mesopotamian traditions) nor exclusively the physical grave of mankind.

Instead, it is a poetic and theological term for the realm of the dead, often described as a place of silence, darkness, and separation from life.


See above.

Quite frankly, the Bible passages speak for themselves. Just read that section of Isaiah. It says what it says.

Isaiah 14:9-11 NIV
[9] The realm of the dead [Hebrew: Sheol] below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations. [10] They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us.” [11] All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps; maggots are spread out beneath you and worms cover you.

Why, please, is it not the common grave of human, period
Why is Isaiah 14:9-11 not speaking of the grave in the same way it does other inanimate things?
Does wisdom have a voice?
Proverbs 1:20, 21
20 Wisdom calls aloud outside; She raises her voice in the open squares.
21 She cries out in the chief concourses, At the openings of the gates in the city She speaks her words:

Remember, you interpret texts based on your beliefs, and therefore, the only reason you have this idea, is because of your beliefs.
There is no reason to think that Sheol is something other than the grave..

When one uses words that were understood one way, to fit a concept that latter was believed, what you end up doing is causing confusion, and adopting false beliefs.
The usage of the word Sheol, started here:
Genesis 37:35
and all his sons and all his daughters rise to comfort him, and he refuses to comfort himself, and says, “For I go down to my son mourning, to Sheol,” and his father weeps for him.

Followed by...
Genesis 42:38
But Jacob replied, “My son will not go down there with you, for his brother is dead, and he alone is left. If any harm comes to him on your journey, you will bring my gray hair down to Sheol in sorrow.”

...
This continues right trough, and does not change, simply because people want to believe concepts associated with false teachings, such as the immortal soul.
This argument will be short, because I am not going back and forth on the same thing from the other thread, that leads nowhere but "I believe".

I prefer discussions that get somewhere, where the Bible puts to rest any further argument... or prevents the start of any. Like this one.

 

[CoreyD]

I like this part of your response here. And the part about the angels of 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 being referenced in 1 Peter.

It is interesting that the angels are bound in chains until judgement day in Tartarus, this place of a Greek underworld.

But through the ages, this topic presents itself differently, and that's ok. The Bible need not be consistent on this because different authors lived and different times and described the afterlife in different ways.

And it doesn't actually present a contradiction. Rather it could simply be understood as a sort of progressive revelation. Just like how Jesus isn't specifically mentioned in the old testament, but the new testament authors receive further revelation in their age and time and thus the new testament speaks more directly of Jesus, while the old testament moreso is simply referenced by the new testament authors, looking back on it.

Is it the Greek underworld?
New Testament

In the New Testament, the noun Tartarus does not occur but tartaroō (ταρταρόω, "throw to Tartarus"), a shortened form of the classical Greek verb kata-tartaroō ("throw down to Tartarus"), does appear in 2 Peter 2:4. Liddell–Scott provides other sources for the shortened form of this verb, including Acusilaus (5th century BC), Joannes Laurentius Lydus (4th century AD) and the Scholiast on Aeschylus' Eumenides, who cites Pindar relating how the earth tried to tartaro "cast down" Apollo after he overcame the Python. In classical texts, the longer form kata-tartaroo is often related to the throwing of the Titans down to Tartarus.​

​

The English Standard Version is one of several English versions that gives the Greek reading Tartarus as a footnote:​

​

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell(a) and committed them to chains(b) of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;​

- 2 Peter 2:4 (Footnote a: Greek Tartarus)​

​

Adam Clarke reasoned that Peter's use of language relating to the Titans was an indication that the ancient Greeks had heard of a Biblical punishment of fallen angels. Some Evangelical Christian commentaries distinguish Tartarus as a place for wicked angels and Gehenna as a place for wicked humans on the basis of this verse. Other Evangelical commentaries, in reconciling that some fallen angels are chained in Tartarus, yet some not, attempt to distinguish between one type of fallen angel and another.​

Does Peter refer to the mythical Greek deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans, or does he refer to chains of darkness to be held for judgment.
The Bible is not Greek mythology, so there is no reason to think that Peter refers to pagan ideas.

 

[Job 33:6]

Is it the Greek underworld?
New Testament

In the New Testament, the noun Tartarus does not occur but tartaroō (ταρταρόω, "throw to Tartarus"), a shortened form of the classical Greek verb kata-tartaroō ("throw down to Tartarus"), does appear in 2 Peter 2:4. Liddell–Scott provides other sources for the shortened form of this verb, including Acusilaus (5th century BC), Joannes Laurentius Lydus (4th century AD) and the Scholiast on Aeschylus' Eumenides, who cites Pindar relating how the earth tried to tartaro "cast down" Apollo after he overcame the Python. In classical texts, the longer form kata-tartaroo is often related to the throwing of the Titans down to Tartarus.​

​

The English Standard Version is one of several English versions that gives the Greek reading Tartarus as a footnote:​

​

For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell(a) and committed them to chains(b) of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;​

- 2 Peter 2:4 (Footnote a: Greek Tartarus)​

​

Adam Clarke reasoned that Peter's use of language relating to the Titans was an indication that the ancient Greeks had heard of a Biblical punishment of fallen angels. Some Evangelical Christian commentaries distinguish Tartarus as a place for wicked angels and Gehenna as a place for wicked humans on the basis of this verse. Other Evangelical commentaries, in reconciling that some fallen angels are chained in Tartarus, yet some not, attempt to distinguish between one type of fallen angel and another.​

Does Peter refer to the mythical Greek deep abyss that is used as a dungeon of torment and suffering for the wicked and as the prison for the Titans, or does he refer to chains of darkness to be held for judgment.
The Bible is not Greek mythology, so there is no reason to think that Peter refers to pagan ideas.

I would not be bothered if this were the case. The Bible can reference mythology to make theological points. Similar to how Peter and Jude reference Enoch.

 

[Job 33:6]

Interesting... and when did you come up with this idea, after this comment J?



Why, please, is it not the common grave of human, period
Why is Isaiah 14:9-11 not speaking of the grave in the same way it does other inanimate things?

Isaiah 14:9–11 presents a vivid, poetic depiction of Sheol that seems to go beyond the concept of the common grave. To answer this question, we need to examine the text and its context carefully.

---

1. Isaiah 14:9–11 Overview​

These verses are part of a taunt against the king of Babylon, describing his downfall and what happens when he descends into Sheol. The passage says:

• "Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. All of them will answer and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!'" (Isaiah 14:9–10, ESV).
• The imagery continues with descriptions of maggots and worms as his bedding (verse 11).

---

2. Why Not the Common Grave?​

Isaiah 14:9–11 is not speaking about the common grave (a simple burial site) because the passage:

• Personifies Sheol: The text portrays Sheol as an active, almost living realm that "stirs up" and "rouses" its inhabitants to greet the fallen king.
• Describes Interaction: The "shades" (spirits of the dead, often called rephaim) interact with the king, mocking his loss of power. This suggests an ongoing existence of these spirits in Sheol, not simply lifeless corpses in a grave.
• Involves Leaders and Kings: The passage emphasizes that former rulers in Sheol acknowledge the king’s arrival, creating a dramatic contrast between his earthly glory and his posthumous humiliation.

If Sheol were merely the common grave, these elements—awareness, activity, and communication—would not make sense.

3. How Does This Differ from Other Inanimate References?

In many other passages, Sheol or the grave is described as a silent, inactive place where no one praises God or engages in activity (e.g., Psalm 6:5, Ecclesiastes 9:10). However, Isaiah 14:9–11 is different because:

It uses poetic and metaphorical language to emphasize the humiliation of the Babylonian king.

The imagery of stirring and greeting is symbolic, meant to highlight the reversal of the king’s fortune rather than provide a literal description of Sheol.

This passage leans into dramatic irony, contrasting the king’s previous arrogance with his ultimate weakness, even in death.

 

[CoreyD]

I would not be bothered if this were the case. The Bible can reference mythology to make theological points. Similar to how Peter and Jude reference Enoch.

Interesting.
I actually met someone who thinks the Bible references mythology, and claims that Enoch is a myth.
Why, I believe you can explain why you think Enoch - the man the Bible says was born to Jared Genesis 5:18 - a descendent of Adam, and ancestor of Noah, and the Messiah Luke 3:37 - who walked with God Genesis 5:22-24, in faith Hebrews 11:5, is a myth.
Please do so.

Isaiah 14:9–11 presents a vivid, poetic depiction of Sheol that seems to go beyond the concept of the common grave. To answer this question, we need to examine the text and its context carefully.

---

1. Isaiah 14:9–11 Overview​

These verses are part of a taunt against the king of Babylon, describing his downfall and what happens when he descends into Sheol. The passage says:

• "Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. All of them will answer and say to you: 'You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!'" (Isaiah 14:9–10, ESV).
• The imagery continues with descriptions of maggots and worms as his bedding (verse 11).

---

2. Why Not the Common Grave?​

Isaiah 14:9–11 is not speaking about the common grave (a simple burial site) because the passage:

• Personifies Sheol: The text portrays Sheol as an active, almost living realm that "stirs up" and "rouses" its inhabitants to greet the fallen king.
• Describes Interaction: The "shades" (spirits of the dead, often called rephaim) interact with the king, mocking his loss of power. This suggests an ongoing existence of these spirits in Sheol, not simply lifeless corpses in a grave.
• Involves Leaders and Kings: The passage emphasizes that former rulers in Sheol acknowledge the king’s arrival, creating a dramatic contrast between his earthly glory and his posthumous humiliation.

If Sheol were merely the common grave, these elements—awareness, activity, and communication—would not make sense.

3. How Does This Differ from Other Inanimate References?

In many other passages, Sheol or the grave is described as a silent, inactive place where no one praises God or engages in activity (e.g., Psalm 6:5, Ecclesiastes 9:10). However, Isaiah 14:9–11 is different because:

It uses poetic and metaphorical language to emphasize the humiliation of the Babylonian king.

The imagery of stirring and greeting is symbolic, meant to highlight the reversal of the king’s fortune rather than provide a literal description of Sheol.

This passage leans into dramatic irony, contrasting the king’s previous arrogance with his ultimate weakness, even in death.

Until you address this post, you may keep arguing against the scriptures. I have no time to argue against someone who is not willing to address scriptures that refute their interpretations.

 

[Job 33:6]

Interesting.
I actually met someone who thinks the Bible references mythology, and claims that Enoch is a myth.
Why, I believe you can explain why you think Enoch - the man the Bible says was born to Jared Genesis 5:18 - a descendent of Adam, and ancestor of Noah, and the Messiah Luke 3:37 - who walked with God Genesis 5:22-24, in faith Hebrews 11:5, is a myth.
Please do so.

Have you read the book of Enoch? Enoch is myth. It is pseudepigrapha.

 

[Job 33:6]

Interesting.
I actually met someone who thinks the Bible references mythology, and claims that Enoch is a myth.
Why, I believe you can explain why you think Enoch - the man the Bible says was born to Jared Genesis 5:18 - a descendent of Adam, and ancestor of Noah, and the Messiah Luke 3:37 - who walked with God Genesis 5:22-24, in faith Hebrews 11:5, is a myth.
Please do so.


Until you address this post, you may keep arguing against the scriptures. I have no time to argue against someone who is not willing to address scriptures that refute their interpretations.

True or false, the spirit of Samuel spoke to Saul:

1 Samuel 28:7-8, 11, 13-15 ESV
[7] Then Saul said to his servants, “Seek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.” And his servants said to him, “Behold, there is a medium at En-dor.” [8] So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments and went, he and two men with him. And they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Divine for me by a spirit and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you.”
[11] Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” He said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”
[13] The king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What do you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I see a god coming up out of the earth.” [14] He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. [15] Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.”

The Bible says what it says.

 

[CoreyD]

Have you read the book of Enoch? Enoch is myth. It is pseudepigrapha.

That's like asking me, if I ever watched Dracula.
The Book of Enoch (also 1 Enoch; Hebrew: סֵפֶר חֲנוֹךְ, Sēfer Ḥănōḵ; Ge'ez: መጽሐፈ ሄኖክ, Maṣḥafa Hēnok) is an ancient Jewish apocalyptic religious text, ascribed by tradition to the patriarch Enoch who was the father of Methuselah and the great-grandfather of Noah.
The older sections of 1 Enoch are estimated to date from about 300–200 BC, and the latest part (Book of Parables) is probably from around 100 BC.

Do you use counterfeit money?
I don't need to use counterfeit money in order to know real money.
I don't need to read apocryphal writings, when I can read the truth. Especially, when the truth is written centuries before the counterfeit... That's right - fake.

The book of Enoch contradicts, and lies against the truth of God's word.
It is inconsistent with the teachings of the Torah, and several early sections of the book make use of material from the Torah.
So, asking me if I went to Hollywood, is not going to make over what is already writen centuries earlier.

 

[Job 33:6]

Until you address this post, you may keep arguing against the scriptures. I have no time to argue against someone who is not willing to address scriptures that refute their interpretations.

You're having a hard time understanding that the underworld can be spoken of in different ways depending on context and what book of the Bible that you're in.

It's like saying "well I know what a tree is, and trees don't talk".

Isaiah 14:7-8 ESV
[7] The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing. [8] The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us.’

Then you read about trees talking, and instead of acknowledging what the Bible says, you're just repeating that trees can't talk.

In the Bible, they do talk, in poetry in particular. And you can read it right there. There is no denying it.

 

[CoreyD]

@Job 33:6 So, the reason you think Enoch is a myth is because you read a book that is a fake, and full of myths? Really?