Oligarchy

[DaisyDay]

Thems is Billions

I can't maths.

 

[Chesterton]

So do the Super PACs:

As of December 21, 2024, 2,485 groups organized as super PACs have reported total receipts of $5,013,349,593 and total independent expenditures of $2,727,796,002 in the 2023-2024 cycle.​

Note those are trillions - quite a purse to dangle in front of politicians who are ever-hungry for campaign (and personal) dollars.

I could have sworn we were talking about Elon Musk.

 

[Chesterton]

To be fair, there's a "super strict semantic" definition, and a contemporary, commonly-understood definition.

As there is with the word "gender"? I get it.

So, I don't know that it's fair to pounce on the anti-Trump folks for leveraging the contemporary definition to describe what their concerns are about him and his upcoming administration.

The contemporary definitions (as laid out by Merriam, and Britannica, respectively)
- a government in which a small group exercises control for corrupt and selfish purposes

- a power structure under which a small group of elite individuals, families, or corporations control a country and are related by characteristics such as wealth, family, nobility, corporate interests, religion, politics, or military power.

So, while it's true that the "super strict semantic definition" merely means "government where power rests with a small number of people"

The contemporary usage has come to mean some more things in addition to that.

It's not uncommon in political discourse for the semantically overloaded version of a word/expression to become the "shorthand"...

I'm well aware it's not uncommon, that doesn't make it right. These are the same people who call Trump a fascist based on absolutely nothing. It's just undeserved name-calling.

...way of expressing a certain idea.

If someone doesn't like Trump they should express their legitimate criticisms without the erroneous name-calling.

Pouncing Trump critics for that reason borders on "appeal to definition" fallacy
ex: "This restaurant is freezing" "well, actually...the temperature in here is 60 degrees, so your argument is invalid, I win" (when, in fact, everyone knew what they meant)

That's an example of someone exaggerating. There's nothing to exaggerate here. Besides, the OP wasn't trying to win an argument, it was just trying to be helpful, you know, help people not sound ignorant.

So, when I hear someone refer to Trump's upcoming administration as "oligarchy", I know what they mean, they're referring to a small handful of people calling the shots based on selfish reasons and aligned corporate, religious, and financial interests.

Within the executive branch, executive decisions are made by the Executive only, same as it's been since George Washington.

 

[ViaCrucis]

One thing that Terry Pratchett learned me was that the viseer is always the heavy.

I just had Disney's Aladdin.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[perplexed]

what is the difference between complaining about "the deep state" and "elites"
and complaining about a oligarchy

 

[Aryeh Jay]

what is the difference between complaining about "the deep state" and "elites"
and complaining about a oligarchy

All I know is that after President Trump takes office we will no longer have to worry about the influence of foreigners or the mega rich having influence in our government and lives like we are suffering from currently under the Harris and Biden regime.

 

[Postvieww]

Perhaps a better choice is plutocracy. Or a combination of plutocracy and kakistocracy?

And on Jan 20, in addition to the Senate, the House, the Judiciary and Executive we have the totally unelected shadow bureaucracy of First Buddy Musk and Little Buddy Ramaswamy.

I would think trying to eliminate wasteful spending would be a good thing! But I guess not with many liberals! Spend the country into financial oblivion like there is no tomorrow.

 

[durangodawood]

.....I learned my Dostoyevsky from Norm MacDonald's moth joke.

lol that was pretty good.

 

[DaisyDay]

I could have sworn we were talking about Elon Musk.

Then you weren't paying attention. Your post to which I was responding was about congress vs private PACs, which Elon Musk certainly contributed but not solely. The thread in general is supposedly about the "correct" definition of oligarchy.

 

[DaisyDay]

I would think trying to eliminate wasteful spending would be a good thing!

It would be if that were what they were actually trying to do.

But I guess not with many liberals!

Oh my! Not afraid to deploy the ad homs!

Spend the country into financial oblivion like there is no tomorrow.

The oligarchy won't save us. The plutocrats will ruin us.

 

[Chesterton]

Then you weren't paying attention. Your post to which I was responding was about congress vs private PACs, which Elon Musk certainly contributed but not solely. The thread in general is supposedly about the "correct" definition of oligarchy.

My post said nothing about PACs. You just have an irrational fear that Musk is part of an oligarchy. This guy made a rocket which flies into space and then comes back and lands vertically like in some 1950's sci-fi movie, lol. Any nation on Earth would love to have him on their side. You should be happy. You should consider yourself lucky.

 

[Postvieww]

It would be if that were what they were actually trying to do.

They are going to cut wasteful spending!

Oh my! Not afraid to deploy the ad homs!

No just an accurate description of SOME liberals. Many of which still don’t know why they lost.

The oligarchy won't save us. The plutocrats will ruin us.

Nancy tried her best to ruin us. Now the oligarchy reference is just liberal propaganda.

 

[DaisyDay]

They are going to cut wasteful spending!

Well, that's the claim!!

No just an accurate description of SOME liberals. Many of which still don’t know why they lost.

Still an ad hom and off-topic. The subject is "oligarchy" not your opinion on how and why [some] liberals suck.

Nancy tried her best to ruin us.

Who is "us" in this? I'm assuming you mean Pelosi because ad homs are fun!

Even if by "us" you mean the Maga party, you are not correct - which you may already realize given the gross of alleged evidence you've neglected to cite.

Now the oligarchy reference is just liberal propaganda.

Which oligarchy reference do you mean? This really seems like an excuse for you to go off on liberals. The subject of this thread, once again, is oligarchy and one person's insistence on its proper meaning as opposed to its now common meaning.

 

[DaisyDay]

My post said nothing about PACs.

We were talking about the power of the purse, which I noted that the Super PACs had a tremendous amount which does influence votes, election outcomes and Supreme Court decisions. Your post pooh-poohed the idea that PACs and the people distributing the tons of money were influencing the vote. It is irrelevant whether that specific post used the word "PACs".

You just have an irrational fear that Musk is part of an oligarchy.

You're mistaken, sorely mistaken, that my recognizing that the world's wealthiest man is part of the oligarch is either irrational or fear. He "influences" are international.

Why do you consider him not to be a part of the oligarchy? <- Non-rhetorical.

This guy made a rocket which flies into space and then comes back and lands vertically like in some 1950's sci-fi movie, lol.

Yeah, this uber-wealthy guy bought a company that makes interesting rockets. How would that make him not part of the oligarchy? Is it that anyone that kewl gets a pass on his buying politicians?

Any nation on Earth would love to have him on their side.

He isn't on America's side; he's on his own side and is seeking to exploit access to changing our laws to benefit himself. Most of his cars are made in China; that business isn't going very well. The more communication systems he controls, the more nations depend on his good will - which is a dangerous concentration of power in a single person.

You should be happy.

I am happy but not about the honor of living in the same country as Elon Musk. It doesn't matter where he lives, really.

You should consider yourself lucky.

I am extremely lucky, but not for having this multibillionaire scuttle environmental protocols for his ambitions. Who will pay the costs for the damage?

 

[Chesterton]

We were talking about the power of the purse, which I noted that the Super PACs had a tremendous amount which does influence votes, election outcomes and Supreme Court decisions. Your post pooh-poohed the idea that PACs and the people distributing the tons of money were influencing the vote. It is irrelevant whether that specific post used the word "PACs".

No, I pooh-poohed the idea that Musk directly bribed Congress to reject the original spending bill, which is what you implied he did.

You're mistaken, sorely mistaken, that my recognizing that the world's wealthiest man is part of the oligarch is either irrational or fear. He "influences" are international.

Why do you consider him not to be a part of the oligarchy? <- Non-rhetorical.

Because there is no oligarchy.

Yeah, this uber-wealthy guy bought a company that makes interesting rockets. How would that make him not part of the oligarchy? Is it that anyone that kewl gets a pass on his buying politicians?

Because there is no oligarchy. If you want to complain about the influence of "big money" in politics, fine, I'm with you. But if you're going to accuse a specific person of buying politicians, you need to present some evidence.

He isn't on America's side; he's on his own side and is seeking to exploit access to changing our laws to benefit himself. Most of his cars are made in China; that business isn't going very well. The more communication systems he controls, the more nations depend on his good will - which is a dangerous concentration of power in a single person.

He's currently the richest guy in the world. Where do you go from there? Do you really think he needs to do anything to further himself? I'm not a fanboy, I don't follow him, but I've heard him speak a few times and I think he sincerely cares about doing the right thing.

I am happy but not about the honor of living in the same country as Elon Musk. It doesn't matter where he lives, really.

That sounds kind of hateful.

I am extremely lucky, but not for having this multibillionaire scuttle environmental protocols for his ambitions. Who will pay the costs for the damage?

I don't know what you're talking about.