Is the existence of Christianity better for this world

[stevevw]

The thing is, that you don't speak for all Christians, your social and political views aren't necessarily the social and political views of all Christians and you are not being "persecuted" for them because of your faith in Christ.

You can't bring yourself to admit Christains are being ill treated and there is hostility towards them in modern secular progressive society can you. You will engage in all sorts of avoidence and rationalisations just not to acknowledge this fact.

Mine or any other Christains personal experiences are irrelevant to this fact.

 

[partinobodycular]

You can't bring yourself to admit Christains are being ill treated and there is hostility towards them in modern secular progressive society can you. You will engage in all sorts of avoidence and rationalisations just not to acknowledge this fact.

I admit that I didn't take the time to read all of your linked articles. (It didn't seem like it would be necessary) But from what I saw the actions were quite legitimate, and if they had involved Muslims instead of Christians then you probably would've been all for them. So all I see is a subset of Christians who'll complain about any attempts to interfere with their agenda under the guise of "persecution".

 

[BCP1928]

You can't bring yourself to admit Christains are being ill treated and there is hostility towards them in modern secular progressive society can you. You will engage in all sorts of avoidence and rationalisations just not to acknowledge this fact.

Mine or any other Christains personal experiences are irrelevant to this fact.

My personal experiences as a Christian are that I am not being persecuted. The only hostility I feel is from a certain subset of other Christians.

 

[Desk trauma]

You can't bring yourself to admit Christains are being ill treated and there is hostility towards them in modern secular progressive society can you. You will engage in all sorts of avoidence and rationalisations just not to acknowledge this fact.

Mine or any other Christains personal experiences are irrelevant to this fact.

Western Christians scream persecution at any minor slight real of imagined and have for decades played up stories ill treatment that are exaggerated if not outright false to the point where I no longer put in the time to look into them. You cried wolf too many times, deal with it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Today I watched the final episode of Family Guy Season 22, which explores whether the presence of religion is beneficial to the world. Actually, I don't think I should be serious about a cartoon, but when I think about it, I do doubt the positive impact of Christianity in today's world, and my textbooks are telling me that Christianity hindered human progress during the Renaissance, and I would like to see more debate on that

I'd say it is probably a net positive. The people you imagine harming progress is largely responsible for what progress was made in Europe and they also copied ancient texts and kept the knowledge therein for future generations to follow.

Since I am not good at English, I decided to simply write down the two questions I asked to make it easier for you to understand：
1 What role does Christianity play in the world today.

Social cohesion.

2 Does Christianity hinder social progress?

I don't see much of that. There's certainly people who believe in a flat earth....but I think it's unlikely they would be splitting the atom otherwise.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What do we specifically mean by "Christianity"? What do we mean by "Progress"? These are important questions to answer in order to fully address the OP, but I'll leave these to the side for now.

For my part, and in looking at Christianity through various historical lenses, it seems to me that what has hindered human progress are Christians who are too dogmatic and literal in their interpretation of the Bible. It's their peculiar process of interpreting that has been the problem for the most part.

In other words, it's not the Christian faith itself that hinders the world's progress, rather it's the hindrance caused by some Christians who over assert an anti-intellectual mindset, refusing to learn anything outside the scope of an ultra literal adherence to a favored paradigm of understanding---whether that paradigm is drawn from the Bible alone or some past thinker like Aristotle or Karl Marx. It is this state of anti-intellectual stasis which contributes to the hindrance of beneficent progress, and almost anyone can suffer from this deficient state of mind, not just Christians.

Obviously, it's difficult to see that Jesus would approve of everything Christians do or have done with the truths of the Christian faith over the last 2,000 years.

We are pattern seeking by nature....so it's hard for me to look down upon those adherents to a particular dogma.

 

[Hans Blaster]

OK. Perhaps only if we say that the church persecuted scientists of the scientific establishment. Then we would have to also investigate whether secular powers and institutions persecuted Christains. If its about whether Christainity is better off for the world then persecution either way needs to be considered. Don't you think, yes, no, maybe.

The OP topic was "does/did Christianity impede social progress?", not "does modernity impede Christianity?"

 

[Astrid]

The OP topic was "does/did Christianity impede social progress?", not "does modernity impede Christianity?"

Twenty million killed in a civil war inspired by Christianity
was not a big help to China.

 

[stevevw]

I admit that I didn't take the time to read all of your linked articles. (It didn't seem like it would be necessary) But from what I saw the actions were quite legitimate, and if they had involved Muslims instead of Christians then you probably would've been all for them. So all I see is a subset of Christians who'll complain about any attempts to interfere with their agenda under the guise of "persecution".

Yes but what the poster is doing is creating a false representation of the point I made and you have just compounded it with more misrepresentations.

My point that Christains are being ill treated and the Left is being hostile towards them is a seperate fact. Just deal with that fact.

Don't try to counter it or deminish this fact with other issues. The fact that a small number complain unjustifiably doesn't change or negate the fact that Christains are being persecuted in secular societies. This only contributes to the denial as people then stereotype real concerns about Christain treatment and sweeps it under the carpet.

 

[stevevw]

The OP topic was "does/did Christianity impede social progress?", not "does modernity impede Christianity?"

But is this not a related consideration to determine if Christains impeded society. What if the secular ideology that claims Christains impede society is false. How do we tell without looking at what secular ideology is exactly. Whether it is a true representation of what is happening.

I am sure there will be secularist who make claims about Christainity being bad for society. Are we not allowed to question where they are coming from. It may be that they are misrepresenting the truth and in doing so are impeding what is best for social progress. So we have to look at secular claims and scrutinize whether they are justified.

 

[BCP1928]

Yes but what the poster is doing is creating a false representation of the point I made and you have just compounded it with more misrepresentations.

My point that Christains are being ill treated and the Left is being hostile towards them is a seperate fact. Just deal with that fact.

Don't try to counter it or deminish this fact with other issues. The fact that a small number complain unjustifiably doesn't change or negate the fact that Christains are being persecuted in secular societies. This only contributes to the denial as people then stereotype real concerns about Christain treatment and sweeps it under the carpet.

OK, let's look at two issues you brought up yourself: vaccines and global warming. You and other Christians are receiving pushback on these issues and claiming persecution. But they are not really Christian issues, so claiming persecution is hypocritical.

 

[stevevw]

I am not sure if its just anti intellectualism that is causing the dogma. I think many religious radicals are very intellectual. It seems to me its more a social or moral basis for most of these radical beliefs.

I would class something like Woke or Humanism as a religion in that it comes with metaphysics about how the world is and morals about how it should be ordered. Like a cult which could be about any idea besides traditional religion. Even lifestyle movements or diets that come with a bunch of do's and don't and ideologies about how they must follow certain mindset and order or they are bound to fail or worse.

Humans have a tendency to fall for fads and we have seen a number of contagions especially in modern times.

I think fundementally humans seek metaphysical meaning beyond the world. Its in their bones and so if its not God who is ordering the world its going to be something that will fill that void of God even if its money or some other secular ideology that incorporates morality and metaphysical meaning.

Its about order and stability. We want to avoid chaos and if we are losing that control then things can become dogmatic for society as a reaction.

This feeds into the OP as to whether Christainity is better for this world because it makes a metaphysical claim. Christ says "I am the way, the truth and the life". He also says He gives peace beyond this worlds understanding of peace'

If this is the case then despite the misrepresentation of dognmatic Christains Christ the center of Christain faith is making a claim to the world, to modern society. Not Christains but Christ. That is the truth Christains are trying to live up to though they often fail. But its still a clear truth within the Christain faith.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Twenty million killed in a civil war inspired by Christianity
was not a big help to China.

which civil war in china was inspired by Christianity, and how was it so inspired?

 

[Hans Blaster]

But is this not a related consideration to determine if Christains impeded society. What if the secular ideology that claims Christains impede society is false. How do we tell without looking at what secular ideology is exactly. Whether it is a true representation of what is happening.

I am sure there will be secularist who make claims about Christainity being bad for society. Are we not allowed to question where they are coming from. It may be that they are misrepresenting the truth and in doing so are impeding what is best for social progress. So we have to look at secular claims and scrutinize whether they are justified.

"Secular ideology" and "secularist" and "secular claims"? Seriously, mate?

This "secularism" you are inventing isn't a real thing. Quit trying to argue it into existence.

 

[stevevw]

OK, let's look at two issues you brought up yourself: vaccines and global warming. You and other Christians are receiving pushback on these issues and claiming persecution. But they are not really Christian issues, so claiming persecution is hypocritical.

Yes on these issues I would say theres a lot more politics than faith. Really the simple truth for Christains is treat Gods creation with respect like we should treat our bodies and not polute it. Thats it.

I am not sure what specific issues will cause Christains to believe they are being ill treated over vacines and climate change. I read one may be that some churches felt descriminated that they could not have gatherings. BUt then this may be a llegitimate complaint as even non Christains made this complaint.

But its more about personal faith, the cultural and social aspects of life. The problem is today the political has become the personal with identity politics and both sides can engage in using politics to push a personal or social agenda about how society should be ordered.

Then its not about truth or facts but about the pushing the ideology whether thats Christainity or Wokism.

 

[Hans Blaster]

I am not sure if its just anti intellectualism that is causing the dogma. I think many religious radicals are very intellectual. It seems to me its more a social or moral basis for most of these radical beliefs.

Since when has "anti-intellectualism" been a theme of this thread, and are you defending it?

I would class something like Woke or Humanism as a religion in that it comes with metaphysics about how the world is and morals about how it should be ordered.

I suggest you stop trying to classify "religions". Humanism is similar to a religion in that it provides a philosophical or moral framework for life, but it is not a religion. As for "woke" that's just a term of derision used by RWers for aspects of identity that they don't like.

Like a cult which could be about any idea besides traditional religion. Even lifestyle movements or diets that come with a bunch of do's and don't and ideologies about how they must follow certain mindset and order or they are bound to fail or worse.

Remember, the topic is if Christianity has a negative impact on social progress/ does good things for society, not things that aren't Christianity.

Humans have a tendency to fall for fads and we have seen a number of contagions especially in modern times.

I think fundementally humans seek metaphysical meaning beyond the world. Its in their bones and so if its not God who is ordering the world its going to be something that will fill that void of God even if its money or some other secular ideology that incorporates morality and metaphysical meaning.

This time you used "secular" correctly as an adjective to describe a category of non-religious things (in this case, ideologies that are non-religious). Bravo.

Its about order and stability. We want to avoid chaos and if we are losing that control then things can become dogmatic for society as a reaction.

This feeds into the OP as to whether Christainity is better for this world because it makes a metaphysical claim. Christ says "I am the way, the truth and the life". He also says He gives peace beyond this worlds understanding of peace'

If this is the case then despite the misrepresentation of dognmatic Christains Christ the center of Christain faith is making a claim to the world, to modern society. Not Christains but Christ. That is the truth Christains are trying to live up to though they often fail. But its still a clear truth within the Christain faith.

The OP didn't say anything about metaphysics or dogma. It was about the practical aspects of Christianity and negative impacts on society.

 

[stevevw]

"Secular ideology" and "secularist" and "secular claims"? Seriously, mate?

This "secularism" you are inventing isn't a real thing. Quit trying to argue it into existence.

I think it is. So here we have two opposing beliefs. How do we determine the truth and facts on this. You are more or less making a truth claim that secular society cannot form ideologies or beliefs that dictate the public square and norms.

Or are these just arbitrary ideas with no ideological basis.

I have posted in the past ample evidence showing that secular society do have ideologies they impose on society. But a simple and general support for this is Wokism or whatever you want to call it that has happened in the last 20 odd years or so.

It has all the hallmarks of any ideology and religion. It has morality, 'we all have to be woke or we are ostrasized, penalised and cancelled'. It has its metaphysics, there is no objective reality or truth for society and everything is a social construction'. The world is made up of oppressors and the oppressed and only the oppressed can determine who is the oppressed and oppressors ect ect.

This is a movenement, a belief phenomena that has penetrated social institutions and norms. It is what is behind the Christain persecution I linked above. It has rules, regulations and laws. It sends out preachers to preach the ideology such as trans into schools and institutions. It penalised those who don't conform.

It is exactly the same as the historical church dogmatism but deguised as Woke or whatever you want to call it. Like I said society cannot rule itself without some metaphysical and ideological belief about how the world should be ordered. It basically comes down at least for western nations who grew up with Christain truths to society accepting or rejecting the Christain God.

If rejected then some secular, human made ideaology will take its place. This is not just my personal opinion this is fact according to decades of studies and research.

 

[Astrid]

which civil war in china was inspired by Christianity, and how was it so inspired?

Taiping

 

[Hans Blaster]

I think it is. So here we have two opposing beliefs. How do we determine the truth and facts on this. You are more or less making a truth claim that secular society cannot form ideologies or beliefs that dictate the public square and norms.

I don't know how you could conclude this from what I wrote. I said nothing that would imply that there weren't secular ideologies.

Or are these just arbitrary ideas with no ideological basis.

I have posted in the past ample evidence showing that secular society do have ideologies they impose on society. But a simple and general support for this is Wokism or whatever you want to call it that has happened in the last 20 odd years or so.

It has all the hallmarks of any ideology and religion. It has morality, 'we all have to be woke or we are ostrasized, penalised and cancelled'. It has its metaphysics, there is no objective reality or truth for society and everything is a social construction'. The world is made up of oppressors and the oppressed and only the oppressed can determine who is the oppressed and oppressors ect ect.

This is a movenement, a belief phenomena that has penetrated social institutions and norms. It is what is behind the Christain persecution I linked above. It has rules, regulations and laws. It sends out preachers to preach the ideology such as trans into schools and institutions. It penalised those who don't conform.

It is exactly the same as the historical church dogmatism but deguised as Woke or whatever you want to call it. Like I said society cannot rule itself without some metaphysical and ideological belief about how the world should be ordered. It basically comes down at least for western nations who grew up with Christain truths to society accepting or rejecting the Christain God.

I'm not sure why this is so hard to understand. Secular is an adjective. As for belief/philosophical/moral systems, there are many, some are religious, some are secular. There is not one singular secular ideology, just as there is not one religous ideology. Christianity is not the only religion.

If rejected then some secular, human made ideaology will take its place. This is not just my personal opinion this is fact according to decades of studies and research.

One religion/philosophy has replaced another since time immemorial. Christianity has replaced and continues to replace other ideologies for the last 2000 years and to the present, as it is also being replaced by others for the same period.

If Christianity continues to hold value for people and benefit society it will continue to prosper, if it does not, it will falter.

 

[stevevw]

Since when has "anti-intellectualism" been a theme of this thread, and are you defending it?

Actually I was responding to another poster who mentioned anti intellectualism being the reason churches and by extention ideologues beome dogmatic and restrict things like science. So I didn't introduce the theme as you call it.

I was actually defending that its not just anti intellectualism that is the motivation but a range of motivations and I think more social and cultural. Because I think many dogmatic movements are very intellectual in their own way. They have a method to their madness.

I suggest you stop trying to classify "religions". Humanism is similar to a religion in that it provides a philosophical or moral framework for life, but it is not a religion. As for "woke" that's just a term of derision used by RWers for aspects of identity that they don't like.

No its not just a term. Thats what the ideologues want you to think it is, just a word. But its a fact that Woke or whatever you want to call the phenomena that has beset modern society as political correctness or identity politics its a reality that has been enforced into society.

Anyone who cannot see this is living on another planet. It is real enough that it has real world affects which I don't need to mention as we have all seen this. Enough so that the majority of people in the US rejected it.

Remember, the topic is if Christianity has a negative impact on social progress/ does good things for society, not things that aren't Christianity.

OK lets see, So does Christianity have a negative impact on social progress or does good things for society.

This time you used "secular" correctly as an adjective to describe a category of non-religious things (in this case, ideologies that are non-religious). Bravo.

Ita all semantics I think. Like I keep saying I don't think secular can be neutral. The very idea of secular being not connected with religion or spirituality is not a true representation of secular. The fact that secular means not connected to religion or spirituality means the opposite metaphysically.

You can't be neutral because you cannot live without some metaphysical basis for society. As soon as you start filling secular society with the details of how it should be setup you start coming up against philosophical, moral and metaphysical questions and situations that need to be applied in the real world.

So if you are not connecting to a religion or spiritual metaphysics you are logically connecting to a material or humanistic idea of metaphysics and morality. These cannot be seperated from each other.

The OP didn't say anything about metaphysics or dogma. It was about the practical aspects of Christianity and negative impacts on society.

Ok so the practical aspects of Christainity applied to how society and the world should be ordered is that we are made in Gods image, man and women. Can you see how the metaphysics and morality naturally comes in on this issue.

The metaphysics for Christains is that God oders nature and reality. There are natural laws and realities like man and women are made in Gods image. From this we have a bunch of other morals and realities associated with marriage, parenting and the family underpinning a strong society.

The metaphysics is there is a God, natural laws and order to reality that will be best as they conform to God the creator.

But secular ideology or humanism or whatever anti GOd or not connected to God idea about metaphysical reality and morals will oppose Gods order because it rejects God out of the equation.

What does secular society actually advocate metaphysically. There is no God, no natural laws or reality and the world is a social construction. Humans are just the result of evolution, God and morality are human constructions and there is nothing beyond what we see.

It can be nop other way. If secular society means not connecting with anything religious or spiritual then whatever fills that void is going to be the opposite material and human made conceptions about these issues.. Human made conceptions are not based on God but on self created ideologies.