Saved by faith alone; how do you know your faith is saving faith?

[Valletta]

That is only one snippet from the CCC and that guy is a former Roman Catholic who understands the Catholic faith better than you think.
The Roman Catholic Church in the Catholic Catechism teaches that we can merit grace necessary for salvation and that, after first having faith, we attain eternal life by works, baptism, and keeping the commandments.

1. CCC 2010, “…Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”
2. CCC 2027, “Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.”
3. CCC 2068, “The Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”

I once quoted Ephesians 2:8,9 to a Roman Catholic and clarified that we are saved by grace through faith, not works and the Roman Catholic responded by saying, "I know that." That same Roman Catholic also denied that Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by works. Then after we discussed it a little deeper, it turns out that Roman Catholic contradicted himself and misinterpreted Ephesians 2:8,9 as such - Saved by grace through faith "infused" with good works, just not works of the law.

As you can see that Roman Catholic teaches saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law). That same Roman Catholic continually called works an essential element of faith and said that it's our cooperation with God’s grace producing works that saves us and he stressed that we are saved by faith and works. He also went on to make this statement below:

We ARE saved by faith - as long as you properly define "Faith". Faith is not simply "believing". Faith INCLUDES: Being water baptized, eating His body and drinking His blood/partaking the Lord's Supper during Mass, works of mercy and charity, obeying his commandments etc..

As you can see above, according to his logic, faith "is" in essence this list of works above so to say that we are saved by faith would also include being saved by accomplishing that list of works above (salvation by works). His argument about faith being defined as and INCLUDES these works above (yet at the same time denying that Roman Catholicism teaches salvation by works) is just sugar-coated double talk, smoke and mirrors, and equates to salvation by faith AND WORKS.

Your description contradicts other sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. There is no intention in the Catechism to contradict. . Works and rewards are spoken of in the Bible, and the rewards God may give us are due to "merit." The Catechism speaks of "merit," which is different than earning:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

We cannot earn salvation. Salvation is a free gift from God. We have free will and hopefully cooperate with the graces God showers upon us and merit more graces

 

[ozso]

If you're saved and know it, clap your hands.

If you're saved and know it, clap your hands.

If you're saved and you know it, then your life will surely show it.

If you're saved and know it, clap your hands.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Roman Catholic Church in the Catholic Catechism teaches that we can merit grace necessary for salvation and that, after first having faith, we attain eternal life by works, baptism, and keeping the commandments.

1. CCC 2010, “…Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”
2. CCC 2027, “Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.”
3. CCC 2068, “The Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.”

"we can merit for ourselves ... the graces needed ..." since these are graces then does it not follow that they are not deserved and hence that merit is not "earning" nor is it "attaining by works" but rather it is much more a matter of being prepared to receive graces from God and graces are by definition undeserved.

 

[Danthemailman]

Your description contradicts other sections of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Works and rewards are spoken of in the Bible, and the rewards God may give us are due to "merit." The Catechism speaks of merit:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

I simply quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If there are contradictions in it that is not on me.

The CCC is crystal clear:

2010 - Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”

CCC 2027 - “Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.”

CCC 2068 - “The Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.” That is salvation by faith AND WORKS and goes beyond mere rewards.

 

[Danthemailman]

"we can merit for ourselves ... the graces needed ..." since these are graces then does it not follow that they are not deserved and hence that merit is not "earning" nor is it "attaining by works" but rather it is much more a matter of being prepared to receive graces from God and graces are by definition undeserved.

How can we merit grace for ourselves when grace is unmerited? In Romans 5:1-2, we read - Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. We do not merit grace through faith.

 

[ozso]

I simply quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If there are contradictions in it that is not on me.

The CCC is crystal clear:

2010 - Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life.”

CCC 2027 - “Moved by the Holy Spirit, we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, as well as necessary temporal goods.”

CCC 2068 - “The Second Vatican Council confirms: “The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments.” That is salvation by faith AND WORKS and goes beyond mere rewards.

According to Pope Francis, all you have to do is get your kids baptized.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

How can we merit grace for ourselves when grace is unmerited?

I think that the puzzle is in the words you chose. You didn't choose the same words that the Catechism chose.

 

[Danthemailman]

I think that the puzzle is in the words you chose. You didn't choose the same words that the Catechism chose.

It's all smoke and mirrors.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It's all smoke and mirrors.

That's a lazy way out.

 

[Danthemailman]

That's a lazy way out.

There was nothing lazy about my research in post #37 and post #44.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Some Christians tell me, as a Catholic, that I am not saved because I allegedly believe that I am saved by faith plus works. They are, of course, wrong since I believe no such thing. Nevertheless, I got to wondering if they say ,"we are saved by faith [alone] apart from works", then how do they know that the kind of faith that they have is genuine 24 caret saving faith?

The seal of the Holy Spirit:

"The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God," Romans 8:16

 

[RandyPNW]

I'm trying to figure out how the second paragraph doesn't contradict the first.

In the minds of many I talk with, it is a contradiction. In my mind it isn't. There are two semantical versions of "works"--2 conflicting definitions. One definition of "works" is technically associated with Christ's work of redemption in saving those with faith. The other definition of "works" I'm using has to do with any work at all, ie works in general.

Christians are required to do good works. God saves people who are potentially good in His Kingdom, and would see evidence of their being "good" in the works that they do, whether good or bad.

Christ's work of redemption specifically deals with the conflict we all have in the good works we do associated with the bad works we do. He eliminates our bad works by forgiving them, and retains the good we do as evidence that we are good or potentially good.

Nobody can do this work of redemption but Christ alone. The ones who must display their "goodness" or "potential goodness" are the rest of humanity, God at some point judging all of them.

They will either enter into His Kingdom or not. God will not let into His Kingdom people who determine to rebel against God in perpetuity. God will people His Kingdom with those who choose to follow Christ in doing good.

 

[Clare73]

How does one know that one's faith is genuine?

The testimony of a good conscience and the witness of the Holy Spirit to one's spirit (Ro 8:16).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The seal of the Holy Spirit:

"The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God," Romans 8:16

How do you tell the difference between the Holy Spirit's witness and one that your own heart creates?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The testimony of a good conscience and the witness of the Holy Spirit to one's spirit (Ro 8:16).

Many claim to have the witness of the Holy Spirit, Benny Hinn comes to mind, and a host of others with similar religious outlooks, yet is their claim true? The same may be asked of any individual who claims the witness of the Holy Spirit, the claim ought to be tested by something that can be witnessed by others.

 

[Hazelelponi]

How do you tell the difference between the Holy Spirit's witness and one that your own heart creates?

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death

 

[Clare73]

Many claim to have the witness of the Holy Spirit, Benny Hinn comes to mind, and a host of others with similar religious outlooks, yet is their claim true? The same may be asked of any individual who claims the witness of the Holy Spirit, the claim ought to be tested by something that can be witnessed by others.

Is Benny Hinn doing anything to contradict that?

Is he in disobedience or unbelief of Scripture?

 

[RandyPNW]

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death

I love this! Notice that the Apostle refers to "loving the brothers." This is a reference specifically to loving brothers and sisters in the faith. I think "brothers" is a term referring to both genders, and not just males, just as "Man" in creation was a neutral, genderless term.

So even though Christians are to love even their enemies, or pagans, this proof for our authentic Christianity comes in our recognition of the "brethren," and our wish to "love them." In loving Jesus we show that we belong to him. In loving his brethren we show that we belong to them. Beautiful!

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Is Benny Hinn doing anything to contradict that?

Is he in disobedience or unbelief of Scripture?

Tell me what you think, watch a video of Benny Hinn's meetings and listen to his teaching and say if it is from God and the product of the Holy Spirit in him.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death

Everyone can see love's works; can everyone see the Holy Spirit's witness without love to show that he is there?