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Is Marxism on the Rise?

Erik Nelson

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Any evidence for that? AFAIK none of them did so. May be Stalin did (I'm not sure), but AFAIR Caesar and Napoleon rather promised to keep the republic running, defend it against foreign (and inner) enemies.
(Napoleon) Bonaparte made many promises and assurances – that he would protect and maintain the Republic; that he would defend the principles of the Revolution; that he would stay in power just so long as it took to resolve the political crisis and ensure the security of the state. He kept none of them.

 
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Simonides

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Let's hope not. 85 million lives lost seem more than enough for me.
I think closer to 250 million and counting. But yes, I agree that should be enough, but Marxists will never honestly address these numbers, much less accept responsibility for them.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Caesar's power base was as a tribune of the plebes, proletariat, people (Wikipedia), as opposed to the patrician aristocracy, and although he promised to restore the Republic but never got very far towards that alleged aim:

Caesar held both the Dictatorship and the Tribunate...

In October 45 BC, Caesar resigned his position as sole Consul, and facilitated the election of two successors for the remainder of the year, which, in theory at least, restored the ordinary Consulship, since the constitution did not recognize a single Consul without a colleague... further submitted the Consuls to the Dictatorial executive. In 48 BC, Caesar was given permanent tribunician powers,[5] which made his person sacrosanct, allowed him to veto the senate, and allowed him to dominate the Plebeian Council... Caesar used the same theory of popular sovereignty that Tiberius Gracchus had used against Marcus Octavius in 133 BC...

Caesar even took steps to transform Italy into a province, and to more tightly link the other provinces of the empire into a single cohesive unit. This addressed the underlying problem that had caused the Social War decades earlier, where individuals outside Rome, and certainly outside Italy, were not considered "Roman", and thus were not given full citizenship rights...

When Caesar returned to Rome in 47 BC, the ranks of the senate had been severely depleted... All of these appointments were of his own partisans, which robbed the senatorial aristocracy of its prestige, and made the senate increasingly subservient to him... to contest the domineering influence of the Senate and Equestrians within the Plebeian councils.
 
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Helmut-WK

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Caesar's power base was as a tribune of the plebes, proletariat, people (Wikipedia), as opposed to the patrician aristocracy, and although he promised to restore the Republic but never got very far towards that alleged aim:
The old meaning of proletariat is not the same as the meaning, when the term was new coined in 19th century.
Caesar even took steps to transform Italy into a province,
That would mean to nullify the achievements of the Italians, when they fought and got Roman citizenship.
When Caesar returned to Rome in 47 BC, the ranks of the senate had been severely depleted... All of these appointments were of his own partisans, which robbed the senatorial aristocracy of its prestige, and made the senate increasingly subservient to him... to contest the domineering influence of the Senate and Equestrians within the Plebeian councils.
As I said: Caesar never promised to let the republic crumble away into a state-less anarchy, he was a populist (like Trump) who only wanted to increase his personal power, up to the point of dictatorship.
 
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Helmut-WK

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(Napoleon) Bonaparte made many promises and assurances – that he would protect and maintain the Republic;
As I said: Napoleon did not promise a decay of the state, but rather the contrary.
that he would defend the principles of the Revolution;
»Defending the revolution« is in most cases a pretext for becoming a dictator.
 
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Helmut-WK

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Yes, a pretext Caesar, Napoleon, and Stalin all claimed
Cesar had no revolution to defend, so he did not make any claim like this.

And you should blame Lenin, not Stalin in the first instance. It was Lenin who changed the almost democratic theory of Marx into a plan for dictatorship, when he introduced the »leading role of the party«. Stalin only became the most radical consequence (somewhat like Robespierre).
 
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Erik Nelson

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Cesar had no revolution to defend, so he did not make any claim like this.
Caesar was a reformist, and was defending his reforms (allegedly) on behalf of the proletariat
And you should blame Lenin, not Stalin in the first instance. It was Lenin who changed the almost democratic theory of Marx into a plan for dictatorship, when he introduced the »leading role of the party«. Stalin only became the most radical consequence (somewhat like Robespierre).
The Jacobins were effectively a "vanguard party" of the French Revolution who imposed a revolutionary dictatorship (December 4, 1793) under Robespierre, allegedly on behalf of the people:

"To organize the Revolution, to promote confidence and compliance, efficiency and control, this law centralized authority in a parliamentary dictatorship, with the Committee of Public Safety at the helm...

no serious dissent to official policy was tolerated. The once vibrant free press had been muzzled..."


 
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Helmut-WK

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Caesar was a reformist, and was defending his reforms (allegedly) on behalf of the proletariat
Where did he say that? In which of his books, or recorded speeches? Why do you just repeat youir staztement, after I said that it is not true, and offer no evidence at all?
The Jacobins …
No objections to what you say about them. Note that they were not for the »proletariate« (which was a class still to arise in the 19th century), but rather a party of the bourgeoisie and peasants.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Certain socioeconomic roles will no longer exist in a Marxist state.

That's the idea.


There won't be multiple economic classes.

Marx's predictive ability to understand future markets is debatable.



It's not uncommon for certain roles to dissappear when new ways of doing things take their place.

Is there a new way of doing things that's actually being proposed by "organic Marxism"?

Specifically of course....one of Marxism's meanest claims is that you can create a utopia....but it never spells out how.

death of feudalism meant no more feudal lords. The change from mercantilism to capitalism has similar effects on previously established roles. No more bourgeois doesn't necessitate "kill them."

Try thinking of economics this way....

It was always capitalism, even when described as fuedalism or mercantilism....the economic processes and principles are fundamentally and perpetually the same. The only differences are market inefficiencies and failures standing between the consumer and the service or product.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Yes, a pretext Caesar, Napoleon, and Stalin all claimed

Caesar was called to Rome to "answer for his crimes". He only had a choice between a certain death and an invasion of Rome. He's not to blame for the death of the Republic. Stalin on the other hand was allying with his comrades and stabbing them in the back as he rose to power. Napoleon simply excelled to the point where even his detractors had to admit his greatness.
 
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Helmut-WK

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It was always capitalism, even when described as fuedalism or mercantilism....the economic processes and principles are fundamentally and perpetually the same. The only differences are market inefficiencies and failures standing between the consumer and the service or product.
No. There has always been some sort of market economy. Capitalism is somewhat more than this.

And there are other forms of economy. Here and there was (is) an economy without market: The social pressure to support others either general (e.g. the most prestige has the one who gives the highest amount of goods to others), or to special groups (family, neighbors etc.).

Feudalism has an economic sectors which is built on goods given to the local lord, who spends them. e.g. in feasts where the whole county is invited to eat and drink for free, alms to the needy ones (especially after a disaster), or rewards to faithful supporters. Even if the lord uses it for himself (new castle, expensive cloth etc.), the money goes back to craftsmen and merchants. You may compare this to taxes, which serve similar objectives, and ar not market economy, and definitely no »capitalism«.

This can be called feudalistic economy. Maybe there was a time (early in the middle ages?) when this was dominant, but it always was combined with some market mechanisms.

There is a general failure, which is inherent in market economy: It makes the riches richer and the poor ones poorer. There are always individual exceptions, but if you want a stable economy, there must be a mechanism which takes money from the rich ones and gives it to the poor ones, in order that the money flow »upwards« created by market mechanisms is balanced by a flow »downwards«.

If you look at history, you can see many instances which proves this »law«. Any economic theory that cannot explain it has some deficit or flaw.
 
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Ana the Ist

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No. There has always been some sort of market economy. Capitalism is somewhat more than this.

Uh huh.

And there are other forms of economy. Here and there was (is) an economy without market: The social pressure to support others either general (e.g. the most prestige has the one who gives the highest amount of goods to others), or to special groups (family, neighbors etc.).

Not sure what you're talking about here....we generally wouldn't describe the family's means of providing for themselves an "economy".



Feudalism has an economic sectors which is built on goods given to the local lord,

As tax....sure.


who spends them. e.g. in feasts where the whole county is invited to eat and drink for free,

Again, I'm unsure what you are referring to specifically here. The serfs and peasants didn't eat with their lord....outside of a seige situation perhaps.


Even if the lord uses it for himself (new castle, expensive cloth etc.), the money goes back to craftsmen and merchants.

I love that you said "new castle" like they just went to a real estate agent and moved into a different castle... how naive.

As for craftsman guilds...there's little difference between them and what Adam Smith would call a "monopoly". The guild paying for the right to do business on a lord's land would typically have no competition.



You may compare this to taxes

They are taxes.



This can be called feudalistic economy. Maybe there was a time (early in the middle ages?) when this was dominant

There was a time when this was dominant.



There is a general failure, which is inherent in market economy: It makes the riches richer and the poor ones poorer.

That's true of any economic system anyone would voluntarily participate in. If you get up to go to work tomorrow....the general idea is that you do so to improve your situation. If you can imagine a system where that is impossible.....you would stop participating.

This is the inherent flaw in socialism which always devolves into "gunpoint labor" aka slave labor aka labor camps aka labor as punishment.


There are always individual exceptions, but if you want a stable economy, there must be a mechanism which takes money from the rich ones and gives it to the poor ones, in order that the money flow »upwards« created by market mechanisms is balanced by a flow »downwards«.

Again, a progressive tax system is described in detail by Adam Smith as a necessary element of a capitalist economy lol.

 
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Helmut-WK

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A peasant which is 80% self.sustaining and 20% income from selling crop is no capitalist.

A capitalist is a factory or »plant« owner who manages his own enterprise, engages m,any workers and always tries to expand his enterprise from the profits he gets (and of course: he lives in luxury).

Stock corporation are, strictly speaking, no capitalism (as Friedrich Engels, the companion who outlived Karl Marx for 12 years, has said) - but marxists or leftists in general use a broader meaning.
Not sure what you're talking about here....we generally wouldn't describe the family's means of providing for themselves an "economy".
It's not just about the nuclear family. If, e.g. you are required to support every cousin that is older than you (and also second cousins), and the parents of younger cousins, and on the other hand will be supported by younger cousins and the children of older cousins - this is not just »providing for oneself«. Especially if this sort of support is the only means to get goods you don't can produce, because there is no market and not even a currency.

Or take the potlatch of the north western Indians: People worked hard not to collect wealth, but to collect prestige because this was tied to giving things away - the more a man gave away, the more the prestige he got. The system turned partly dysfunctional when western goods changed the situation, and giving away was partly done by destroying goods … but that's another topic.

Do you now understand what I was talking about?
Again, I'm unsure what you are referring to specifically here. The serfs and peasants didn't eat with their lord…
There were feasts (e.g. at a wedding, or an anniversity) where everyone was invited. The did not eat from the same table as the Lord, but what they ate wad provided by the Lord who spent the festival.
I love that you said "new castle" like they just went to a real estate agent and moved into a different castle... how naive.
How many castles were sold and bought in the middle ages, how many were built by a Lord (King, earl etc.) who wanted to protect his territory from enemies?
As for craftsman guilds...there's little difference between them and what Adam Smith would call a "monopoly".
Monopoly is too much simplified. AFAIK guilds existed in tows, a guild may be compared to a syndicate which protects the rights of a profession.

There was (limited) competition between the members of a guild, and a Lord could chose the town where he got his craftsmen for a given project from.
That's true of any economic system anyone would voluntarily participate in.
No. Think of the north-west Indians with their potlatch system: It has inherent that any accumulation of wealth will be smoothed by the social pressure to give to others.
If you get up to go to work tomorrow....the general idea is that you do so to improve your situation.
But while some can people can improve their economic situation by simply playing with stocks, others have to work hard in order not to worsen their situation, and have no money to play with stocks. Or on the company level: Being a large company has advances, you can compete better than a small enterprise. Bad management or luck in a brand new market segment can override this, but statistically it is so.

Why do you think anti-trust-laws were made? Just out of socialist ideology? No, they are there to prevent the market to be transformed in a monopoly, which is a rather natural development unless the state acts against it.
This is the inherent flaw in socialism which always devolves into "gunpoint labor" aka slave labor aka labor camps aka labor as punishment.
No, Sweden had 44 years of socialist government, 30 years the social democrats ruled without need of a coalition partner. I never heard of labor camps or anything like that in Sweden.

Did you gulp the communist propaganda that communist countries were socialist (»real existing socialism«)? Because what you say is typical for communism. not socialism.
Again, a progressive tax system is described in detail by Adam Smith as a necessary element of a capitalist economy lol.
Interesting, can you give any link to that?

And why argue so called »defenders of market economy« against higher taxes for the rich ones?
 
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Ana the Ist

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A peasant which is 80% self.sustaining and 20% income from selling crop is no capitalist.

Neither is a modern fast food worker. What's your point?


A capitalist is

Someone who understands economics.

It's that simple. If you understand economics....you're certainly a capitalist. If you don't....you might be a socialist, anarchist, libertarian, etc.

Stock corporation are, strictly speaking, no capitalism (as Friedrich Engels, the companion who outlived Karl Marx for 12 years, has said) - but marxists or leftists in general use a broader meaning.

That's nice....I'm going to skip this.

It's not just about the nuclear family.

Never claimed it was.

If, e.g. you are required to support every cousin that is older than you (and also second cousins), and the parents of younger cousins, and on the other hand will be supported by younger cousins and the children of older cousins - this is not just »providing for oneself«. Especially if this sort of support is the only means to get goods you don't can produce, because there is no market and not even a currency.

No market, no currency, no trade, no economy.

Or take the potlatch of the north western Indians: People worked hard not to collect wealth, but to collect prestige because this was tied to giving things away - the more a man gave away, the more the prestige he got. The system turned partly dysfunctional when western goods changed the situation, and giving away was partly done by destroying goods … but that's another topic.

Oh I see....revisionist anthropology that claims everyone was a communistic multi-gendered pansexual pile on prior to the white man's arrival.

While there may have been such ceremonies....in reality, the vast majority of native Americans were patriarchal hierarchical monarchies for all intents and purposes. The chieftain would often have far more than any other men in the tribe.



How many castles were sold and bought in the middle ages, how many were built by a Lord (King, earl etc.) who wanted to protect his territory from enemies?

Does it matter?



Monopoly is too much simplified. AFAIK guilds existed in tows, a guild may be compared to a syndicate which protects the rights of a profession.

It protected the rights of the profession by running off any competition that wasn't part of the guild. A monopoly.


There was (limited) competition between the members of a guild,

Same as a monopoly.

No. Think of the north-west Indians with their potlatch system: It has inherent that any accumulation of wealth will be smoothed by the social pressure to give to others.

When I think of the northwest Indians I think of the Nez Pearce. A slave owning/sacrificing tribe. Is that who you mean?



But while some can people can improve their economic situation by simply playing with stocks,

There's multiple ways to improve one's situation.


Why do you think anti-trust-laws were made?

Because monopolies are considered market failures in capitalist economies.

No, Sweden had 44 years of socialist government, 30 years the social democrats ruled without need of a coalition partner. I never heard of labor camps or anything like that in Sweden.

Sweden is a capitalist economy.


Did you gulp the communist propaganda that communist countries were socialist (»real existing socialism«)? Because what you say is typical for communism. not socialism.

What's the difference between a socialist economy and communist economy in your mind?


Interesting, can you give any link to that?


It's laid out pretty well there...if it looks a bit like Marx's "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" the fact is that Marx knew then....as I know now....that nobody really read Adam Smith and fewer still understood him.

Much of Marx is ripped right off the pages of the Wealth of Nations...and frankly even Smith's mistakes are copied. Where do think the concept of the "value of labor" came from? Socialists?




And why argue so called »defenders of market economy« against higher taxes for the rich ones?

I don't know what you're asking me here...

Why do capitalists argue against taxes for the wealthy? Probably because they don't understand capitalism. They also argue against regulation which Smith argued was 100% necessary for a functional economy.

There is however, in recent decades, the issue of globalization....which has complicated things, as well as the deregulation of the financial markets. This is beside the point though.
 
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Helmut-WK

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Neither is a modern fast food worker. What's your point?
The fast food worker is an employee, a peasant farmer may hire employees (typically temporarly, e.g. in harvest time).

My point was: An economy without capitalists is no capitalism.
Someone who understands economics.
No. A fast-food worker who understands economy is no capitalist. The word capitalist is (surprise!) derived from capital. Without capital, you are no capitalist.

And your implication that only supporters of capitalism (this seems to be the meaning of your term »capitalist«) understand economy is wrong.

BTW, anarchism says nothing about economy, it is all about politics and absence of power.
No market, no currency, no trade, no economy.
I studied social anthropology, there economy is not restricted to market economy.
Oh I see....revisionist anthropology that claims everyone was a communistic multi-gendered pansexual pile on prior to the white man's arrival.
I see - you are full of prejudice. I did not speak about »everyone«, I mentioned an economy with was documented by research. As to sexual rules in northwestern Indian society I know nothing - and Wikipedia says nothing.

And why you connect that to communism is unclear. The original meaning of that term was »having all things in common«, cf. the so-called »love-communism« of the first Christians (Acts 4:32ff). This sounds somewhat similar to potlatch, but while the first Christians stressed humbleness as an ideal, the exchange from wealth to prestige in these societies can be described as the contrary to the Christian ideal.
The chieftain would often have far more than any other men in the tribe.
In the Northwestern tribes, there typically were several competing chiefs, not just one chieftain. And I did not say that there was egalitarianism in that culture - I pointed to an economy (flow/exchange of ressources) was not based on a market, let alone a market with a currency.
While there may have been such ceremonies....in reality, the vast majority of native Americans were patriarchal hierarchical monarchies for all intents and purposes. The chieftain would often have far more than any other men in the tribe.
This is too much simplified. And mark, I did not speak of the majority of Indians (regardless how the majority is calculated), I mentioned an identifiable culture.
Does it matter?
I replied to your remark that a Lord would just by an estate - which is ridiculous (we spoke about middle-ages, not 19th century or the like!).
It protected the rights of the profession by running off any competition that wasn't part of the guild. A monopoly.
A competition that was not part of the guild meant a craftsman without education in that craft.

So, Universities can be described as a monopoly - without academic legitimation you cannot become professor.

My concept of monopoly is somewhat different.
Same as a monopoly.
No, monopoly is derived from monos (one, only) and polis (town). If there is more than one actor, it is not a monopoly. Maybe an oligopoly, or a syndicate.
When I think of the northwest Indians I think of the Nez Pearce. A slave owning/sacrificing tribe. Is that who you mean?
I looked after that tribe - I suppose you mean the Nez Perce, which are part of the Plateau culture. I meant the North-western tribes.
There's multiple ways to improve one's situation.
But rich ones have more opportunities that poor ones.
Sweden is a capitalist economy.
I tell you a detail: in The 1970's the famous author Astrid Lindgren hat to pay 98% income tax. being a socialist, she did not object - the 2% left to her was enough to live a modest comfortable life. But then she had to pay 102% - that was too much, even for her. She published a series of satiric articles in a newspaper, this and other reasons had the effect that the social democrats lost the next election. This ended the socialist's rule in Sweden.

So you really think that socialist is the wrong term for a country where rich people had to pay up to 100% income tax (even if we disregard the 102%)? WEhich was the financial base for a strong welfare system?
What's the difference between a socialist economy and communist economy in your mind?
The difference between socialism and communism is politics, not economy.

Within Marx's scheme, socialism was the first phase after a successful world revolution, when the victorious majority oppressed the dangerous old ruling class (dictatorship of the proletariat), but when the need for this ended, the society would develop into a peaceful anarchy, called communism.

In the late 19th century, it turned out that the prediction of Marx were wrong. Many socialist leaders apprehended that a turn into a socialist society might be come through reforms, not violent revolution. One of the opponents to such »revisionism« was Lenin, who presented a quite different revision of Marx: The social reforms in modern states like UK or Germany were explained as a sort of bribe to a privileged skilled labor class, financed by imperialism, so there was still a need for a world revolution. To ensure this revolution would be successful, Lenin propagated the leading role of the worker's party - Trotsky called this »dictatorship over the proletariat«.

During WWI, Lenin and Trotsky became allies, in 1917 they established this dictatorship of a minority over the majority in Russia - the first communist state. This marked the break between communists - aka Marxist-Leninist - and socialists. The socialists revived the International organization (Second International), the communists founded the Third International (aka Comintern), later the Trotskiists founded the Fourth International.

So a communist state is ruled by a communist party, always by dictatorship, while socialist parties typically ruled as a result of won elections - either alone (as the labour party in the UK) or in a coalition (e.g. SPD in Germany). Almost (or literally?) every country in western Europe had some socialist government for some time.

Economically, both socialists and communists showed different approaches. Lenin in the USSR and Deng in China allowed private economy, Stalin, or Mao, enforced collectivism. In the UK, there was socialization of large industry sectors, this never was theme in Western Germany (apart from small leftist groups). So it is hard to describe an economic difference.
I cannot read anything of progressive tax there, but rather about proportional tax, i.e. the same relation (say, 10%) for rich and poor.
Much of Marx is ripped right off the pages of the Wealth of Nations...and frankly even Smith's mistakes are copied. Where do think the concept of the "value of labor" came from? Socialists?
It would be more interesting whether the concept of »additional value« (cf. VAT) was taken from Smith.

Marx did not claim to have coined the term value of labor, but said that he was the first who could define and calculate that worth.
Why do capitalists argue against taxes for the wealthy? Probably because they don't understand capitalism.
More probably that they look o9nly for their own benefit, in other words: They are greedy.
 
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Helmut-WK

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I will only say one thing, the core of socialism in China is still capitalism
I cannot see any socialism in China. The politics is communist dictatorship, the economy, as you said, capitalistm. There is no socialism at all.
 
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I cannot see any socialism in China. The politics is communist dictatorship, the economy, as you said, capitalistm. There is no socialism at all.
As a foreigner, I am shocked that you know so much about China
 
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