Is morality objective, even without God?

[Jo555]

I'm afraid that your answers have been no help at all. They amount to 'God gives the answers to those who seek them'. Which explains nothing about contradictory views within Christianity.

How long did it take you to figure out how to re-word your question enough to make it seem like I didn't answer your original question three times.

Only one word comes to mind ... Snake.

But hey, God loves snakes too, and so do I.

 

[Bradskii]

How long did it take you to figure out how to re-word your question enough to make it seem like I didn't answer your original question three times.

Generally, if I don't get an answer to a question I've asked I'll accept some responsibility for not being clear enough. So I will reword it to help. Obviously that hasn't helped. But the question has effectively been the same each time: If two Christians tell me that they have been given divine guidance on a particular moral problem, and the two people now have contradictory views, how do I know which one is right.

That's quite a simple question. You could have said that one of them is obviously wrong. In fact, it's the only logical answer (other than they are both wrong). That then would have led to a discussion about doubt, about sola scriptura, exegesis, casuistry, dogma etc. But we can't get past the first hurdle.

 

[Jo555]

I'm afraid that your answers have been no help at all. They amount to 'God gives the answers to those who seek them'. Which explains nothing about contradictory views within Christianity.

How long did it take you to figure out how to re-word your question enough to make it seem like I didn't answer your original question three times.

Only one word comes to mind ... Snake.

But hey, God loves snakes too, and so do I.

Generally, if I don't get an answer to a question I've asked I'll accept some responsibility for not being clear enough. So I will reword it to help. Obviously that hasn't helped. But the question has effectively been the same each time: If two Christians tell me that they have been given divine guidance on a particular moral problem, and the two people now have contradictory views, how do I know which one is right.

That's quite a simple question. You could have said that one of them is obviously wrong. In fact, it's the only logical answer (other than they are both wrong). That then would have led to a discussion about doubt, about sola scriptura, exegesis, casuistry, dogma etc. But we can't get past the first hurdle.

Still doing it. Go back to my replies and you will see that I covered that already. You just didn't get the answer you want to hear and to me that appears to be your problem, not that I didn't answer it.

So now I am going to not even read anymore when alert comes through because I stand by my first opinion on this, this is going nowhere. I have to leave my answers to the Lord to use as He sees fit.

Just want others to be aware.

If I am wrong, I apologize, but I really, really don't believe that is the case.

Wish you well.

 

[Bradskii]

Go back to my replies and you will see that I covered that already.

My question has always been: If two Christians say they have been divinely guided and they have two opposing views, how do I know which of them is correct. So let's go back through your replies and see what you've said:

Sometimes God does call us to put up with abuses for what He is looking to do, but whether we do or don't, it should be by his leading via his Spirit.

You have your own relationship with God and let Him reveal his Word to you.

...a believer's decision is based on the love of God poured out in his heart.

You have your own relationship with God and let Him reveal it to you.

The Christian / believer does not live by a moral code, but the love of God poured out in his heart. In other words, he is led by God's Spirit.

In our case, we go straight to God and allow his Spirit to reveal it.

...the believer doesn't live by a moral code, but by the love of God poured out in their hearts.

...ask God these questions too, then wait for Him to reply in his time and way.

I've tried rewording the question. I've tried explaining it in quite a few posts. I've tried giving simple examples. But as anyone can see, literally none of them address the question in any way whatsoever.

 

[QvQ]

If two Christians tell me that they have been given divine guidance on a particular moral problem, and the two people now have contradictory views, how do I know which one is right

You don't.
God is the Judge

Some of the contradictory views are more complex such as Pro-Abortion and Pro-Life
The fact is that supposed Christians such as Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi and Kamala Harris are loudly and vehementally pro-abortion.
Many Christians class abortion as murder.
However, Joe, Nancy and Kamala are of the Free Will persuasion. That means that a person is free to damn their own souls.
Those three would probably claim that They themselves would Never choose abortion (in accordance to God's divine guidance) but free will requires that other people can freely choose.
The argument is cynical and profane. But Joe, Nancy and Kamala would agree that God's guidance is pro-life for them personally.

 

[Bradskii]

You don't.

Of course I don't. However, if one of them can give me persuasive arguments for their position, other than 'I have been guided by God' (because they are both using that argument in the first instance and one of them is wrong), then I will agree with that person. The point being is that claiming divine guidance is no guarantee of being correct.

The fact is that supposed Christians such as Joe Biden, Nancy Pelosi and Kamala Harris are loudly and vehementally pro-abortion.
Many Christians class abortion as murder.

Those that you mention are Christian. And they are not for abortion. Nobody wants abortions to be carried out. They are pro choice. As you say:

However, Joe, Nancy and Kamala are of the Free Will persuasion. That means that a person should have a choice to damn their own souls.

And as you said earlier, that will be God's call.

But Joe, Nancy and Kamala would agree that God's guidance is pro-life for them personally.

But they have been guided to not prevent people from having them. Now who is right? Well, I'll go back to the point I made about agreeing with those who have the best arguments that aren't based on divine authority. Because both sides will claim that.

 

[QvQ]

But they have been guided to not prevent people from having them.

Not guided by God
It is a Christian duty to preach the Gospel.
That is why the arguments "for" are cynical and profane.
All of those abortion advocates know the Guidance but they don't preach the guidance
The guidance is the same for all Christans. Biden would not actively preach or promote abortion for his wife or daughter.
He does preach and promote abortion for thee.
That is not loving thy neighbor as thyself.
The guidance is the same for all Christians, even sinners. Some just ignore or justify or rationalize.

 

[partinobodycular]

Sometimes God does call us to put up with abuses for what He is looking to do, but whether we do or don't, it should be by his leading via his Spirit.

You have your own relationship with God and let Him reveal his Word to you.

...a believer's decision is based on the love of God poured out in his heart.

You have your own relationship with God and let Him reveal it to you.

The Christian / believer does not live by a moral code, but the love of God poured out in his heart. In other words, he is led by God's Spirit.

In our case, we go straight to God and allow his Spirit to reveal it.

...the believer doesn't live by a moral code, but by the love of God poured out in their hearts.

...ask God these questions too, then wait for Him to reply in his time and way.

It seems to me that all of these quotes are saying the exact same thing.

Specifically, that when it comes to questions of morality I'm always right, and whatever anybody else thinks doesn't matter.

Sounds good to me.

I always suspected that that was the case. Turns out I was supposed to be listening to that little nagging voice all along.

 

[Bradskii]

Not guided by God

Are you saying that they wouldn't have prayed for guidance? For such a topic I would have thought it would have been natural to do so.

 

[Bradskii]

It seems to me that all of these quotes are saying the exact same thing.

Specifically, that when it comes to questions of morality I'm always right, and whatever anybody else thinks doesn't matter.

That sharp crack I heard a minute or so ago was you hitting the nail squarely on the head. Any divine guidance that reinforces your belief in any given matter is genuine and is from God. Any that contradicts your belief is false and obviously not from God.

 

[Tinker Grey]

It seems to me that all of these quotes are saying the exact same thing.

Specifically, that when it comes to questions of morality I'm always right, and whatever anybody else thinks doesn't matter.

Sounds good to me.

I always suspected that that was the case. Turns out I was supposed to be listening to that little nagging voice all along.

I think I said something similar back @ #394: Is morality objective, even without God?

Yunno, I don't think I've ever met a person who believed in objective morality who didn't think it was their morality that was most closely aligned with the objective morality. It doesn't matter if it's Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson, or those in this thread.

A theist might opine that they know they are sinners, but they still think they know what the truth is.

In my more cynical moments, I think that all an objective moralist wants is for you to do what they tell you.

 

[QvQ]

Are you salying that they wouldn't have prayed for guidance? For such a topic I would have thought it would have been natural to do so.

Ask Them I doubt, being politicians that they did pray as the guidance is clear in the Gospels.
Rather, Biden, Kamala, Pelosi are politicians pleasing the crowd. Pontius Pilate comes to mind, surrendering the innocent to the mob.

God's guidance is Matthew 25: 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

That is the guidance
That is the Gospel for all Christians.

 

[Bradskii]

I doubt, being politicians that they did pray as the guidance is clear in the Gospels.

It's because there is scriptural guidance against abortion that I would fully expect them to look for guidance for their personal positions on such a important subject.

 

[QvQ]

Any divine guidance that reinforces your belief in any given matter is genuine and is from God. Any that contradicts your belief is false and obviously not from God.

Wrong
Christianity is counter intuitive.
Blessed are the meek
Pray for them who despitefully use you.
Matthew 5: 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.

Christianity is astonishing in being counter to what is so obviously convenient and satisfying.

 

[Neogaia777]

It's because there is scriptural guidance against abortion that I would fully expect them to look for guidance for their personal positions on such a important subject.

I don't know the exact scripture reference right now, but a lot of people use from the OT where a man just accidentally killed a baby in a woman's womb and he was put to death for it. But there is a lot of killing for a lot of things in the OT.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[partinobodycular]

I don't know the exact scripture reference right now, but a lot of people use from the OT where a man just accidentally killed a baby in a woman's womb and he was put to death for it. But there is a lot of killing for a lot of things in the OT.

Perhaps you should've taken the time to look it up, because the OT doesn't say that.

 

[Neogaia777]

Perhaps you should've taken the time to look it up, because the OT doesn't say that.

K, I looked it up, and you might be partially correct "maybe", but it depends on the interpretation of Exodus 21:22-25 which is still being debated. The debate seems to be centered around what "life" is being referred to there, that of the woman's, or that of the unborn child's. Unfortunately, the Bible just doesn't say. But it could mean either the woman's, or the child's though, etc.

Take Care/God Bless.

 

[partinobodycular]

K, I looked it up, and you might be partially correct "maybe",

No, not partially, and not maybe, absolutely without a doubt, the serious injury referred to in verse 23 is that of the woman, not the unborn child. Any attempt to interpret it differently is an unadulterated lie.

 

[Neogaia777]

No, not partially, and not maybe, absolutely without a doubt, the serious injury referred to in verse 23 is that of the woman, not the unborn child. Any attempt to interpret it differently is an unadulterated lie.

I think if you do a bit more research, you'll find it depends on how it is translated, which no one can seem to agree on for sure, and that it's still up for debate.

I'm not saying this because of my own position/views on it, etc. But because I did look it up, and that seems to be the general consensus, etc. But you will find some hotly debating it saying they know for sure either way, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Bradskii]

Blessed are the meek

And David said to his men, “Every man strap on his sword!” And every man of them strapped on his sword. David also strapped on his sword. And about four hundred men went up after David...

Christianity is astonishing in being counter to what is so obviously convenient and satisfying.

Which is why I would say that the people you mentioned would look for guidance, rather than doing what was convenient.