Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us.

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I can understand the Protestant attitude to break away from the liturgy of the Catholic Church. Order has been and remains important for the Catholic Church. For the Last Supper, the first mass, Jesus very much followed the Jewish liturgy. In Saint Clement's letter to the Corinthians from the first century, he speaks of keeping such order for the priests:

Chapter 40. Let Us Preserve in the Church the Order Appointed by God.​

These things therefore being manifest to us, and since we look into the depths of the divine knowledge, it behooves us to do all things in [their proper] order, which the Lord has commanded us to perform at stated times. He has enjoined offerings [to be presented] and service to be performed [to Him], and that not thoughtlessly or irregularly, but at the appointed times and hours. Where and by whom He desires these things to be done, He Himself has fixed by His own supreme will, in order that all things, being piously done according to His good pleasure, may be acceptable unto Him. Those, therefore, who present their offerings at the appointed times, are accepted and blessed; for inasmuch as they follow the laws of the Lord, they sin not. For his own peculiar services are assigned to the high priest, and their own proper place is prescribed to the priests, and their own special ministrations devolve on the Levites. The layman is bound by the laws that pertain to laymen.

Chapter 41. Continuation of the Same Subject.​

Let every one of you, brethren, give thanks to God in his own order, living in all good conscience, with becoming gravity, and not going beyond the rule of the ministry prescribed to him. Not in every place, brethren, are the daily sacrifices offered, or the peace-offerings, or the sin-offerings and the trespass-offerings, but in Jerusalem only. And even there they are not offered in any place, but only at the altar before the temple, that which is offered being first carefully examined by the high priest and the ministers already mentioned. Those, therefore, who do anything beyond that which is agreeable to His will, are punished with death. You see, brethren, that the greater the knowledge that has been vouchsafed to us, the greater also is the danger to which we are exposed.

CHURCH FATHERS: Letter to the Corinthians (Clement)

Featuring the Church Fathers, Catholic Encyclopedia, Summa Theologica and more.

www.newadvent.org

He sounds like he is describing Jewish worshop.

 

[ozso]

As I previously explained, good works follow salvation. They are the fruit of it and evidence for it. They do not save us but if we are saved we will have good works.

So what are examples of good works as a result of being in Christ?

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

So what are examples of good works as a result of being in Christ?

Many like caring for the sick and less privileged. Supporting missionary efforts. Helping others in need. Countless examples.

 

[ozso]

Many like caring for the sick and less privileged. Supporting missionary efforts. Helping others in need. Countless examples.

But those who aren't in Christ do those things too.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

So what are examples of good works as a result of being in Christ?

Of course, but if not done with the right heart attitude to obey and glorify God, then it is not a good work in the eyes of God.

“All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away” (Isaiah 64:6)

Non-believers can do "good things." They can contribute to charities, help the needy, etc. They don't do those things motivated by love of God or for His glory. While those might still be good things, they won't earn us salvation. We cannot live good enough to live eternally in the presence of an all-holy God.

Martin Luther said, “The most damnable and pernicious heresy that has ever plagued the mind of man is that somehow he can make himself good enough to deserve to live forever with an all-holy God.”

Paul proclaimed, “we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:10; see also 2 Corinthians 3:5).

The "good works" the Bible speaks of, in the life of believers, are those works "which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Those apart from Christ cannot perform such works. They seek self-righteousness.

 

[Jan001]

Until we have faith, and are saved and redeemed, we cannot do truly good works. Our "good works" are but filthy rags before God. Only after we are saved can God do good works through us. We are saved by faith, but faith is followed by good works. Always. You cannot be saved and have no good works unless you die immediately after you are saved. Both Paul and James are saying the same thing. We are saved by faith, but saving faith always produces good works.

I agree that a saving faith always produces good works.

But, proclaiming that you have faith but not doing the good works that God has ordained for you to do will not save you. A person like this has dead faith and he will be thrown into the fire to burn forever. Ephesians 2:10, Luke 3:9, John 15:6

There were many righteous people in the world before Jesus redeemed them with his death on the cross. Abel, Seth, Enoch, Job, John the Baptist, etc.

Context is necessary to understand the "filthy rags" quotation. Righteous deeds by people of good will are always good. Titus 3:8 However, seemingly righteous deeds by people who have ulterior motives are not profitable for eternal life. Matthew 6:1-24.

Hebrews 4:12-13 Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And before him (Jesus) no creature is hidden, but all are naked and laid bare to the eyes of the one to whom we must render an account.

Psalm 64:5-7
O that you would tear open the heavens and come down,
so that the mountains would quake at your presence—
2 as when fire kindles brushwood
and the fire causes water to boil—
to make your name known to your adversaries,
so that the nations might tremble at your presence!
3 When you did awesome deeds that we did not expect,
you came down, the mountains quaked at your presence.
4 From ages past no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who works for those who wait for him.

5 You meet those who gladly do right,
those who remember you in your ways.
But you were angry, and we sinned;
because you hid yourself we transgressed.
6 We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy cloth.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
7 There is no one who calls on your name,
or attempts to take hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us,
and have delivered us into the hand of our iniquity.

8 Yet, O Lord, you are our Father;
we are the clay, and you are our potter;
we are all the work of your hand.
9 Do not be exceedingly angry, O Lord,
and do not remember iniquity forever.
Now consider, we are all your people.
10 Your holy cities have become a wilderness,
Zion has become a wilderness,
Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and beautiful house,
where our ancestors praised you,
has been burned by fire,
and all our pleasant places have become ruins.
12 After all this, will you restrain yourself, O Lord?
Will you keep silent, and punish us so severely?



Ezekiel 33:10-20 Now you, mortal, say to the house of Israel, Thus you have said: “Our transgressions and our sins weigh upon us, and we waste away because of them; how then can we live?” 11 Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from their ways and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel? 12 And you, mortal, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not save them when they transgress; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, it shall not make them stumble when they turn from their wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by their righteousness when they sin. 13 Though I say to the righteous that they shall surely live, yet if they trust in their righteousness and commit iniquity, none of their righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that they have committed they shall die. 14 Again, though I say to the wicked, “You shall surely die,” yet if they turn from their sin and do what is lawful and right— 15 if the wicked restore the pledge, give back what they have taken by robbery, and walk in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity—they shall surely live, they shall not die. 16 None of the sins that they have committed shall be remembered against them; they have done what is lawful and right, they shall surely live.

17 Yet your people say, “The way of the Lord is not just,” when it is their own way that is not just. 18 When the righteous turn from their righteousness, and commit iniquity, they shall die for it. 19 And when the wicked turn from their wickedness, and do what is lawful and right, they shall live by it. 20 Yet you say, “The way of the Lord is not just.” O house of Israel, I will judge all of you according to your ways!

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I agree that a saving faith always produces good works.

But, proclaiming that you have faith but not doing the good works that God has ordained for you to do will not save you. A person like this has dead faith and he will be thrown into the fire to burn forever. Ephesians 2:10, Luke 3:9, John 15:6

There were many righteous people in the world before Jesus redeemed them with his death on the cross. Abel, Seth, Enoch, Job, John the Baptist, etc.

Context is necessary to understand the "filthy rags" quotation. Righteous deeds by people of good will are always good. Titus 3:8 However, seemingly righteous deeds by people who have ulterior motives are not profitable for eternal life. Matthew 6:1-24.

Hebrews 4:12-13 Indeed, the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing until it divides soul from spirit, joints from marrow; it is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And before him (Jesus) no creature is hidden, but all are naked and laid bare to the eyes of the one to whom we must render an account.

Psalm 64:5-7
O that you would tear open the heavens and come down,
so that the mountains would quake at your presence—
2 as when fire kindles brushwood
and the fire causes water to boil—
to make your name known to your adversaries,
so that the nations might tremble at your presence!
3 When you did awesome deeds that we did not expect,
you came down, the mountains quaked at your presence.
4 From ages past no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who works for those who wait for him.

5 You meet those who gladly do right,
those who remember you in your ways.
But you were angry, and we sinned;
because you hid yourself we transgressed.
6 We have all become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy cloth.
We all fade like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
7 There is no one who calls on your name,
or attempts to take hold of you;
for you have hidden your face from us,
and have delivered us into the hand of our iniquity.

8 Yet, O Lord, you are our Father;
we are the clay, and you are our potter;
we are all the work of your hand.
9 Do not be exceedingly angry, O Lord,
and do not remember iniquity forever.
Now consider, we are all your people.
10 Your holy cities have become a wilderness,
Zion has become a wilderness,
Jerusalem a desolation.
11 Our holy and beautiful house,
where our ancestors praised you,
has been burned by fire,
and all our pleasant places have become ruins.
12 After all this, will you restrain yourself, O Lord?
Will you keep silent, and punish us so severely?



Ezekiel 33:10-20 Now you, mortal, say to the house of Israel, Thus you have said: “Our transgressions and our sins weigh upon us, and we waste away because of them; how then can we live?” 11 Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from their ways and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel? 12 And you, mortal, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not save them when they transgress; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, it shall not make them stumble when they turn from their wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by their righteousness when they sin. 13 Though I say to the righteous that they shall surely live, yet if they trust in their righteousness and commit iniquity, none of their righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that they have committed they shall die. 14 Again, though I say to the wicked, “You shall surely die,” yet if they turn from their sin and do what is lawful and right— 15 if the wicked restore the pledge, give back what they have taken by robbery, and walk in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity—they shall surely live, they shall not die. 16 None of the sins that they have committed shall be remembered against them; they have done what is lawful and right, they shall surely live.

17 Yet your people say, “The way of the Lord is not just,” when it is their own way that is not just. 18 When the righteous turn from their righteousness, and commit iniquity, they shall die for it. 19 And when the wicked turn from their wickedness, and do what is lawful and right, they shall live by it. 20 Yet you say, “The way of the Lord is not just.” O house of Israel, I will judge all of you according to your ways!

Salvation has always been by faith alone. True, saving faith WILL ALWAYS produce good works. It cannot help but do so because God has prepared good works to do through those He saves. It is true that professing faith is different than possessing faith. Anyone can make a show of faith and say the right things but that doesn't mean they possess saving faith. God knows the heart and we cannot fool Him with our lips. We might fool men (the wheat and the tares), but we cannot fool God.

Thus, salvation is not faith + works. It is by faith alone which always leads to good works. You cannot have true saving faith and not have good works. There is a second judgment in heaven of our works. Some will have great rewards, and some will be little, but all will be saved. Salvation is judged at the Great White Throne judgment. It is true God separates the sheep from the goats and is described as doing so based on their works, but that is because saving faith always leads to good works. It is the fruit or evidence of saving faith. The lone exception would be someone who dies shortly after believing and has no time to do good works.

Some people read James and think salvation depends on works. To believe that you must reject what Paul writes that salvation is by faith and not by works. Since God does not contradict Himself, those two go together by realizing that you are saved by faith alone (Paul's point), but saving faith always leads to good works (James's point). Both are right. I think some Catholics misunderstand Protestants, thinking we believe that as long as we profess faith, we are saved and can live like hell and have no good works. No! We don't believe that, and anyone who does is mistaken. However, when someone makes what appears to be a sincere profession of faith, we trust they are, at that moment, saved and that the good works will follow in time. We could wait and see and withhold judgment until much time has passed and their works become evident, but we prefer to encourage them in their newfound faith and proceed on the assumption they truly have saving faith. God knows the heart and He alone is judge. Someone may fool us. If we could see hearts, the church would not be full of wheat and tares.

An unbeliever can do good things but no amount of good works will save them for they lack faith.

 

[Yakuda]

What would you suggest?

Do you see any of the Apostles "venerating Mary" in the NT??

Do you see any of them praying to the dead - or for the dead in the NT?

====================

Christians frequently quote NT apostles when proclaiming/teaching/defining doctrine regarding the Gospel.

Aside from Mary's statement that Christ was also her Savior - what direct quotes of Mary do you find people appealing to - when trying to proclaim gospel doctrine ? Because the idea of contributing as much to Bible doctrine regarding the Gospel as did the Apostles might suggest at least one or two quotes from Mary.

Does the Bible say anywhere that the sky is blue?

 

[rturner76]

Without Mary's virgin woumb, who wouls also be so covered in grace? I understand how non-Catholics desire to denegrade the virgin woumb but all you need do is read your Bible to understand the Virgin Birth

 

[AveChristusRex]

"Mary was a good person and had a sinful nature like all of us."

No.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Does the Bible say anywhere that the sky is blue?

No, but given there is nothing in the Bible about venerating her and no example of it being done, it is a valid consideration.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Without Mary's virgin woumb, who wouls also be so covered in grace? I understand how non-Catholics desire to denegrade the virgin woumb but all you need do is read your Bible to understand the Virgin Birth

It is not Mary's womb that is special. It is who she gave birth to. Her body was a vessel used by God to bring His Son into the world in flesh. There is nothing sacred about her womb. I disagree with attempts to equate Mary's womb to the Ark of the Covenant. Without Mary's womb, God would have used another. That is a moot point though as God chose and predestined Mary to carry Jesus. There was no chance she would say no. I still admire her as a great woman of faith who believed the impossible and put her full trust in God. She is one of the finest examples of a believer. I don't consider her womb sacred and believe she had other children after Jesus. If she did, that in no way lessened her or Jesus.

 

[David Lamb]

Does the Bible say anywhere that the sky is blue?

That's not a fair comparison at all. We can see that the sky is blue, so it isn't necessary for God to tell us so in His Word, but we cannot see by observation whether any Christians of the New Testament era venerated Mary. We cannot see by observation whether Mary was a sinless person, or perpetually a virgin, or queen of heaven, as some believe. If such things were true we should expect to find them in the bible.

 

[prodromos]

If such things were true we should expect to find them in the bible.

It would have been plainly obvious to anyone who met Mary and any of Jesus' siblings that she was not old enough to be their mother, so it is not true that we would expect to find a definitive statement in the Bible. What I find strange is that you interpret Matthew as making an explicit statement about sexual intercourse between Joseph and Mary which has absolutely no bearing on the Gospel.

 

[David Lamb]

It would have been plainly obvious to anyone who met Mary and any of Jesus' siblings that she was not old enough to be their mother, so it is not true that we would expect to find a definitive statement in the Bible. What I find strange is that you interpret Matthew as making an explicit statement about sexual intercourse between Joseph and Mary which has absolutely no bearing on the Gospel.

But as I have just asked you on the thread, "A Question for Catholics," “Why would Mary not have been old enough? The bible refers to Jesus as her "firstborn Son." If she was old enough to be the mother of Jesus, she would have been old enough to give birth to other children after Jesus." You answered there, "Not if they were older than Jesus, indeed most were probably older than Mary." I wonder how you know that? You have to assume these things, and others, such as "firstborn" not meaning "oldest", "until" not meaning what we mean by it, the Greek words for "brothers" and "sisters" meaning cousins, or some supposed children of Joseph from a supposed previous marriage, and so on. I do agree that these matters are not the gospel.

 

[prodromos]

But as I have just asked you on the thread, "A Question for Catholics," “Why would Mary not have been old enough? The bible refers to Jesus as her "firstborn Son." If she was old enough to be the mother of Jesus, she would have been old enough to give birth to other children after Jesus." You answered there, "Not if they were older than Jesus, indeed most were probably older than Mary." I wonder how you know that? You have to assume these things, and others, such as "firstborn" not meaning "oldest", "until" not meaning what we mean by it, the Greek words for "brothers" and "sisters" meaning cousins, or some supposed children of Joseph from a supposed previous marriage, and so on. I do agree that these matters are not the gospel.

The attitude of Jesus' brothers is consistent with older brothers. They try to control Him and advise Him which is not consistent with Hebrew culture. If Jesus was the eldest then He would hold considerably sway over His younger brothers, especially as they would have grown up in the shadow of the perfect big brother.

 

[prodromos]

I wonder how you know that?

It is knowledge handed down through the Church. For example, the woman at the well is named Photini. That is not recorded in the Bible but was known by the Church, just as the penitent thief who was crucified along with Jesus is named Dismas. Salome, the mother of the Apostles James and John, is known to be one of Joseph's daughters, and could not possibly be a child of Mary.

 

[David Lamb]

The attitude of Jesus' brothers is consistent with older brothers. They try to control Him and advise Him which is not consistent with Hebrew culture. If Jesus was the eldest then He would hold considerably sway over His younger brothers, especially as they would have grown up in the shadow of the perfect big brother.

Surely that shows the extent of their animosity to Jesus, before some of them became believers. We read:

“For even His brothers did not believe in Him.” (Joh 7:5 NKJV)

Jesus said that anyone who was not with Him was against Him.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

The attitude of Jesus' brothers is consistent with older brothers. They try to control Him and advise Him which is not consistent with Hebrew culture. If Jesus was the eldest then He would hold considerably sway over His younger brothers, especially as they would have grown up in the shadow of the perfect big brother.

Normally, yes but they thought Jesus was crazy claiming to be God. They were not yet believers and may have felt that had to step up and protect Mary and the family. Jesus was not the typical oldest brother who lived close to home and was around the family. He was constantly traveling and away from home. Growing up with a perfect older brother may have caused envy. We cannot prove they are older. The natural reading of the Scriptures is that Mary and Joseph went on to have other children. These would be younger brothers.

 

[prodromos]

Growing up with a perfect older brother may have caused envy.

Seriously?
Growing up with an older brother who loved you with a perfect love, never shaming you, always having the wisest advice? You think that would provoke envy?