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MarkRohfrietsch

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You keep stating that as a fact. That may be what you historically have passed down but you have not proven that. You have not dealt with the evidence of contradicts that. You simply dismissed anything that is contradictory to your belief, and repeated what you have stated before. You are not allowing for any questioning or an examining and you're certainly not answering any of the objections.
And you chose to disregard anything that contradicts as well; I trust the Bible and other theological authorities that will continue to carry a lot more credibility than anyone that tries to pass off recent innovations as eternal truth. This was what got mankind into trouble in the first place; wanting to be wise like God; I have no objections to answer. You can no more claim to know the intimacies of the Blessed Virgins sex life than I can; you are only presuming things that are not even hinted at in Scripture. Is that not being a bit presumptuous?
 
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You keep stating that as a fact. That may be what you historically have passed down but you have not proven that. You have not dealt with the evidence of contradicts that. You simply dismissed anything that is contradictory to your belief, and repeated what you have stated before. You are not allowing for any questioning or an examining and you're certainly not answering any of the objections.

And you chose to disregard anything that contradicts as well;
No I am not. you have not put any fact that I have not addressed. On the other hand you won't address this evidence

again please do avoid addressing the evidence. Appeals to authority as a means of not answering me in a logical fallacy and appears to be brainwashing. So since you will not address the evidence I'm out, for now. when you want to address the evidence for your claims instead of lecturing and scholding then we can talked.

I will give you another chance.

Matthew 1:25
"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus"

there is you text that says they had sex. so that should end the discussion.

What difference does it make if she had sex after Jesus was born. Why is this even an issue? I cannot for the life of me see what the purpose behind this doctrine is. What is the Goal? Is this simply a matter of historical accuracy? Is there some Theological implication that I am missing? Is there some Spiritual Shift that occurs when married people who are following God order have sex? Is there some damnation that occurs. It seem like an unnecessary teaching that just make you a target. Or is some kind of pseudo authority power trip. it is that way because we said so. What am I missing?
 
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concretecamper

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Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I guess Jesus won't be with us after the end of the world
 
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Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

I guess Jesus won't be with us after the end of the world
I will give you another chance.

Matthew 1:25
"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus"

there is your text that says they had sex. so that should end the discussion.
 
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Valletta

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I will give you another chance.

Matthew 1:25
"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus"

there is you text that says they had sex. so that should end the discussion.
You make an error similar to your previous error about "brother." The Koine Greek word translated into "until" says nothing whatsoever about what happens after the time of the subject event. Your conjecture, once again, is not backed up by the Bible.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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I will give you another chance.

Matthew 1:25
"But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus"

there is your text that says they had sex. so that should end the discussion.
Do it yourself paraphrase; from the NAH (New Adventist Heretic edition); pretty desperate I would say.
 
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Do it yourself paraphrase; from the NAH (New Adventist Heretic edition); pretty desperate I would say.
ok you pick your version any version. only one is translated the way the Catholics translate it. So what is the answer. How do you answer this? the teaching of the perpetual virginity of Mary is not based on the Scripture.

King James Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

New King James Version
and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.
New Revised Standard Version
but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus.

New International Version
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.


How about Catholic Translations
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Catholic Public Domain Version
And he knew her not, yet she bore her son, the firstborn. And he called his name JESUS.
this is the only version the comes close to saying why the Catholic church says
New American Bible
He had no relations with her until she bore a son, and he named him Jesus.

New Revised Standard Version
but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus.

New International Version
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

How about Translations from Aramaic
Lamsa Bible
And he did not know her until she gave birth to her first-born son; and she called his name Jesus.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he did not know her sexually until she delivered her firstborn son, and she called his name Yeshua.

How about NT Translations
Anderson New Testament
and knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born son. And he called his name Jesus.

Godbey New Testament
and he took his wife to himself, and did not know her until she brought forth a son, and called his name Jesus.

Haweis New Testament
and he knew her not, until she had brought forth her son, the first begotten, and he called his name Jesus.

Mace New Testament
but did not cohabit with her as a wife, before she had-brought forth her first-born son; whom he named JESUS.

Weymouth New Testament
but did not live with her until she had given birth to a son. The child's name he called JESUS.

Worrell New Testament
and he knew her not, until she brought forth a Son, and he called His name Jesus.

Worsley New Testament
and he knew her not, till she brought forth her Son the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.
New International Version
But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

New Living Translation
But he did not have sexual relations with her until her son was born. And Joseph named him Jesus.

English Standard Version
but knew her not until she had given birth to a son. And he called his name Jesus.

Berean Standard Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
But he did not know her until she had brought forth a Son, and he called His name Jesus.

King James Bible
And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

New King James Version
and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.

New American Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he named Him Jesus.

NASB 1995
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

NASB 1977
and kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Legacy Standard Bible
but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

Amplified Bible
but he kept her a virgin until she had given birth to a Son [her firstborn child]; and he named Him Jesus (The LORD is salvation).

Christian Standard Bible
but did not have sexual relations with her until she gave birth to a son. And he named him Jesus.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
but did not know her intimately until she gave birth to a son. And he named Him Jesus.

American Standard Version
and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

Contemporary English Version
But they did not sleep together before her baby was born. Then Joseph named him Jesus.

English Revised Version
and knew her not till she had brought forth a son: and he called his name JESUS.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He did not have marital relations with her before she gave birth to a son. Joseph named the child Jesus.

Good News Translation
But he had no sexual relations with her before she gave birth to her son. And Joseph named him Jesus.

International Standard Version
He did not have marital relations with her until she had given birth to a son; and he named him Jesus.

Majority Standard Bible
But he had no union with her until she gave birth to her firstborn Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.

NET Bible
but did not have marital relations with her until she gave birth to a son, whom he named Jesus.

New Heart English Bible
and had no marital relations with her until she had brought forth a son; and he named him Jesus.

Webster's Bible Translation
And knew her not till she had brought forth her first-born son: and he called his name JESUS.

Weymouth New Testament
but did not live with her until she had given birth to a son. The child's name he called JESUS.

World English Bible
and didn’t know her sexually until she had given birth to her firstborn son. He named him Jesus.
Literal Translations
Literal Standard Version
and did not know her until she brought forth her Son—the firstborn, and he called His Name Jesus.

Berean Literal Bible
But he did not know her until she had brought forth a Son, and he called His name Jesus.

Young's Literal Translation
and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.

Smith's Literal Translation
And he took to himself his wife, and knew her not till she brought forth her first born son: and be called his name Jesus.
 
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You make an error similar to your previous error about "brother." The Koine Greek word translated into "until" says nothing whatsoever about what happens after the time of the subject event. Your conjecture, once again, is not backed up by the Bible.
Usage: The Greek word "ἕως" (heós) is primarily used as a conjunction or preposition to denote a point in time or space. It is often translated as "until" or "till" when referring to time, and "as far as" or "up to" when referring to space. In the New Testament, it frequently marks the end of a period or the extent of an action or event.


in the current context it is saying that Joseph did not have sex upto the the birth of Jesus. Now you claim other wise show me how you arrived at the from scripture.
 
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upon examination of the word adelphos you are incorrect. the grammar is very specific about this.

Jerome and Augustine (cf. Lightfoot's Commentary on Galatians, diss. ii.)), according to that use of language by which ἀδελφός like the Hebrew אָח denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Genesis 14:16; 1 Samuel 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chronicles 23:2, etc.), but own brothers, born after Jesus, is clear principally from Matthew 1:25 (only in R G); Luke 2:7where, had Mary borne no other children after Jesus, instead of υἱόν πρωτότοκον, the expression υἱόν μονογενῆ would have been used, as well as from Acts 1:14, cf. John 7:5, where the Lord's brethren are distinguished from the apostles

Berean Strong's Lexicon
adelphos: Brother
Original Word: ἀδελφός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: adelphos
Pronunciation: ah-del-FOS
Phonetic Spelling: (ad-el-fos')
Definition: Brother
Meaning: a brother, member of the same religious community, especially a fellow-Christian.

Word Origin: From the Greek prefix "ἀ-" (a, denoting unity) and "δελφύς" (delphys, meaning womb), literally meaning "from the same womb."

Corresponding Greek / Hebrew Entries: - 251 אָח (ach): Brother, used in the Old Testament to denote both biological and figurative brotherhood.

Usage: In the New Testament, "adelphos" primarily refers to a male sibling, a brother by blood. However, its usage extends beyond biological relationships to denote spiritual kinship among believers, reflecting the familial bond within the Christian community. It is also used metaphorically to describe close relationships, such as fellow countrymen or members of a religious community.

Cultural and Historical Background: In the ancient Greco-Roman world, family ties were paramount, and the concept of brotherhood extended to various social and religious contexts. The early Christian community adopted this term to emphasize unity and equality among believers, transcending ethnic and social boundaries. This was revolutionary in a society often divided by class and ethnicity.

NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from alpha (as a cop. prefix) and delphus (womb)
Definition
a brother
NASB Translation
believing husband (1), brethren (170), brethren* (13), brother (111), brother's (8), brothers (40).


Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 80: ἀδελφός

ἀδελφός, (οῦ, ὁ (from ἆ copulative and δελφύς, from the same womb; cf. ἀγάστωρ) (from Homer down);
1. a brother (whether born of the same two parents, or only of the same father or the same mother): Matthew 1:2; Matthew 4:18, and often. That 'the brethren of Jesus,' Matthew 12:46, 47 (but WH only in marginal reading); f; Mark 6:3 (in the last two passages also sisters); Luke 8:19; John 2:12; John 7:3; Acts 1:14; Galatians 1:19; 1 Corinthians 9:5, are neither sons of Joseph by a wife married before Mary (which is the account in the Apocryphal Gospels (cf. Thilo, Cod. Apocr. N. T. i. 362f)), nor cousins, the children of Alphaeus or Cleophas (i. e. Clopas) and Mary a sister of the mother of Jesus (the current opinion among the doctors of the church since Jerome and Augustine (cf. Lightfoot's Commentary on Galatians, diss. ii.)), according to that use of language by which ἀδελφός like the Hebrew אָח denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Genesis 14:16; 1 Samuel 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chronicles 23:2, etc.), but own brothers, born after Jesus, is clear principally from Matthew 1:25 (only in R G); Luke 2:7 — where, had Mary borne no other children after Jesus, instead of υἱόν πρωτότοκον, the expression υἱόν μονογενῆ would have been used, as well as from Acts 1:14, cf. John 7:5, where the Lord's brethren are distinguished from the apostles. See further on this point under Ἰάκωβος, 3. (Cf. B. D. under the word ; Andrews, Life of our Lord, pp. 104-116; Bib. Sacr. for 1864, pp. 855-869; for 1869, pp. 745-758; Laurent, N. T. Studien, pp. 153-193; McClellan, note on Matthew 13:55.)

2. according to a Hebrew use of אָח (Exodus 2:11; Exodus 4:18, etc.), hardly to be met with in secular authors, having the same national ancestor, belonging to the same people, countryman; so the Jews (as the σπέρμα Ἀβραάμ, υἱοί Ἰσραήλ, cf. Acts 13:26; (in Deuteronomy 15:3 opposed to ὁ ἀλλότριος, cf. Acts 17:15; Acts 15:12; Philo de septen. § 9 at the beginning)) are called ἀδελφοί: Matthew 5:47; Acts 3:22 (Deuteronomy 18:15); ; Romans 9:3; in address, Acts 2:29; Acts 3:17; Acts 23:1; Hebrews 7:5.

3. just as in Leviticus 19:17 the word אָח is used interchangeably with רֵַעַ (but, as Leviticus 19:16, 18 show, in speaking of Israelites), so in the sayings of Christ, Matthew 5:22, 24; Matthew 7:3ff, ἀδελφός is used for ὁ πλησίον to denote (as appears from Luke 10:29ff) any fellow-man — as having one and the same father with others, viz. God (Hebrews 2:11), and as descended from the same first ancestor (Acts 17:26); cf. Epictetus diss. 1, 13, 3.

4. a fellow-believer, united to another by the bond of affection; so most frequently of Christians, constituting as it were but a single family: Matthew 23:8; John 21:23; Acts 6:3 (Lachmann omits); ; Galatians 1:2; 1 Corinthians 5:11; Philippians 1:14, etc.; in courteous address, Romans 1:13; Romans 7:1; 1 Corinthians 1:10; 1 John 2:7 Rec., and often elsewhere; yet in the phraseology of John it has reference to the new life unto which men are begotten again by the efficiency of a common father, even God: 1 John 2:9ff; ; etc., cf. 1 John 5:1.

5. an associate in employment or office: 1 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 1:1; 2 Corinthians 2:13(12); Ephesians 6:21; Colossians 1:1.

6. brethren of Christ is used of,

a. his brothers by blood; see 1 above.

b. all men: Matthew 25:40 (Lachmann brackets); Hebrews 2:11f (others refer these examples to d.)

c. apostles: Matthew 28:10; John 20:17.

d. Christians, as those who are destined to be exalted to the same heavenly δόξα (which see, III. 4 b.) which he enjoys: Romans 8:29.
 
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Valletta

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Usage: The Greek word "ἕως" (heós) is primarily used as a conjunction or preposition to denote a point in time or space. It is often translated as "until" or "till" when referring to time, and "as far as" or "up to" when referring to space. In the New Testament, it frequently marks the end of a period or the extent of an action or event.


in the current context it is saying that Joseph did not have sex upto the the birth of Jesus. Now you claim other wise show me how you arrived at the from scripture.
I pointed out your errors. The text is correct, Mary remained a virgin to that time. The passage says nothing about what happened after that time. An analogy can be found here:

However 2 Samuel 6:23 is translated (until, til, onto) "Michal . . . had no child until the date of her death" means Michal had no children up to that point in time. It also says nothing about what happened after that time. Using your logic, Michal had a child after she was dead.

As with the previous example, I merely proved your conclusion was in error.
 
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Valletta

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I pointed out your errors. The text is correct, Mary remained a virgin to that time. The passage says nothing about what happened after that time. An analogy can be found here:

However 2 Samuel 6:23 is translated (until, til, onto) "Michal . . . had no child until the date of her death" means Michal had no children up to that point in time. It also says nothing about what happened after that time. Using your logic, Michal had a child after she was dead.

As with the previous example, I merely proved your conclusion was in error.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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I pointed out your errors. The text is correct, Mary remained a virgin to that time. The passage says nothing about what happened after that time. An analogy can be found here:
oh my, There was no error. the plain reading of the text won't convince you then nothing I say will, but just for those who are reading this I will quote the text again so they can see. the context tells us they were talking about consummation of marriage.

Amplified Bible
but he kept her a virgin until she had given birth to a Son [her firstborn child]; and he named Him Jesus (The LORD is salvation).

However 2 Samuel 6:23 is translated (until, til, onto) "Michal . . . had no child until the date of her death" means Michal had no children up to that point in time. It also says nothing about what happened after that time. Using your logic, Michal had a child after she was dead.

As with the previous example, I merely proved your conclusion was in error.
what and upsurd conclusion. this is the best objection. in the Case of Michal it is saying she was cursed with barrenness the rest of her life, the end point of her childlessness is death and at death you cannot have children.

But with the case of Mary the end point of her virginity was after Jesus was born.

both are taking about a change in their situation. one lasted until death one till her baby was born.

If this is your strongest case, you have no case.
 
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tall73

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Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic. Aramaic and Hebrew have no word for cousin.

Koine did, however, ἀνέψιος, and it is used in Colossians 4:10

Colossians 4:10 (Greek NT: Byzantine Greek Unparsed Text)
10 Ἀσπάζεται ὑμᾶς Ἀρίσταρχος ὁ συναιχμάλωτός μου, καὶ Μάρκος ὁ ἀνεψιὸς Βαρνάβᾳ, περὶ οὗ ἐλάβετε ἐντολάς ἐὰν ἔλθῃ πρὸς ὑμᾶς, δέξασθε αὐτόν·

Colossians 4:10 (NKJV)
10 Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas (about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him)

If a theological point were being made by the gospels regarding the relatives of Jesus that word was available.
 
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Koine did, however, ἀνέψιος, and it is used in Colossians 4:10

Colossians 4:10 (Greek NT: Byzantine Greek Unparsed Text)
10 Ἀσπάζεται ὑμᾶς Ἀρίσταρχος ὁ συναιχμάλωτός μου, καὶ Μάρκος ὁ ἀνεψιὸς Βαρνάβᾳ, περὶ οὗ ἐλάβετε ἐντολάς ἐὰν ἔλθῃ πρὸς ὑμᾶς, δέξασθε αὐτόν·

Colossians 4:10 (NKJV)
10 Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas (about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him)

If a theological point were being made by the gospels regarding the relatives of Jesus that word was available.
This was well hashed out in a earlier post #112, but was ignored.

Jerome and Augustine (cf. Lightfoot's Commentary on Galatians, diss. ii.)), according to that use of language by which ἀδελφός like the Hebrew אָח denotes any blood-relation or kinsman (Genesis 14:16; 1 Samuel 20:29; 2 Kings 10:13; 1 Chronicles 23:2, etc.), but own brothers, born after Jesus, is clear principally from Matthew 1:25 (only in R G); Luke 2:7where, had Mary borne no other children after Jesus, instead of υἱόν πρωτότοκον, the expression υἱόν μονογενῆ would have been used, as well as from Acts 1:14, cf. John 7:5, where the Lord's brethren are distinguished from the apostle

πρωτότοκον is the word for proto. proto type or 1st of many.
μονογενῆ is for mono, only, begot. or only begotten son.
 
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jas3

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Koine did, however, ἀνέψιος, and it is used in Colossians 4:10
The existence of a word specifically meaning "cousin" doesn't negate the fact that ἀδελφός was used to refer to relatives in the general sense, e.g. Gen. 13:8.
 
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tall73

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The existence of a word specifically meaning "cousin" doesn't negate the fact that ἀδελφός was used to refer to relatives in the general sense, e.g. Gen. 13:8.
A. I was speaking to the contention that in Aramaic there is no word for cousin.

B.ἀδελφός having the potential for a broader meaning is acknowledged. But multiple gospels chose not to use a more precise term that would have clarified the point.

The contention that it cannot be actually brothers and sisters appears to rest on second century sources.
 
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Valletta

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oh my, There was no error. the plain reading of the text won't convince you then nothing I say will, but just for those who are reading this I will quote the text again so they can see. the context tells us they were talking about consummation of marriage.

Amplified Bible
but he kept her a virgin until she had given birth to a Son [her firstborn child]; and he named Him Jesus (The LORD is salvation).

what and upsurd conclusion. this is the best objection. in the Case of Michal it is saying she was cursed with barrenness the rest of her life, the end point of her childlessness is death and at death you cannot have children.

But with the case of Mary the end point of her virginity was after Jesus was born.

both are taking about a change in their situation. one lasted until death one till her baby was born.

If this is your strongest case, you have no case.
It's very simple, "brother" has more than one meaning and you yet choose the meaning to back up your conjecture. Calling it the "plain reading" does not change that fact that there are multiple meanings! You call it "plain" because that is your pre-conceived notion of the meaning you want it to be. That is no proof at all. As to "until," the Koine Greek word for "until" says ZERO about what happened after the subject event. "Michal had no child until the day of her death" does NOT mean Michal had children after her death. It's the same grammatical structure yet you interpret it differently to suit your belief. You have no support whatsoever from the Bible for your speculation.
 
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It's very simple, "brother" has more than one meaning and you yet choose the meaning to back up your conjecture
Your reasoning backwards. You're trying to support your doctrine from the text rather than looking at the text to support your doctrine. There are cases where the text means biological relative and there are other cases where it doesn't mean that. You have rolled out the fact that it means biological relative by reason of the fact that you don't want it to be the case because of contradicts the Catholic Church teaches. Looks like SDA is with the the investigative judgment. You wanted to say something that isn't there. Sorry.


. Calling it the "plain reading" does not change that fact that there are multiple meanings! You call it "plain" because that is your pre-conceived notion of the meaning you want it to be.

That is no proof at all. As to "until," the Koine Greek word for "until" says ZERO about what happened after the subject event.
The subject of the event is them having sex they did not have sex until after Jesus was born. And plainly says that. You have to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that you do. You just don't want it to say that.
"Michal had no child until the day of her death" does NOT mean Michal had children after her death. It's the same grammatical structure yet you interpret it differently to suit your belief. You have no support whatsoever from the Bible for your speculation.
But saying they didn't have sex until after the baby was born, does mean there was sex after the baby was born, but not before.
 
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jas3

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B.ἀδελφός having the potential for a broader meaning is acknowledged. But multiple gospels chose not to use a more precise term that would have clarified the point.

The contention that it cannot be actually brothers and sisters appears to rest on second century sources.
It was not unclear to contemporary readers. The first attestation of your interpretation is from the 4th/5th century.
 
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Valletta

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Your reasoning backwards. You're trying to support your doctrine from the text rather than looking at the text to support your doctrine. There are cases where the text means biological relative and there are other cases where it doesn't mean that. You have rolled out the fact that it means biological relative by reason of the fact that you don't want it to be the case because of contradicts the Catholic Church teaches. Looks like SDA is with the the investigative judgment. You wanted to say something that isn't there. Sorry.





The subject of the event is them having sex they did not have sex until after Jesus was born. And plainly says that. You have to do a bunch of mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that you do. You just don't want it to say that.

But saying they didn't have sex until after the baby was born, does mean there was sex after the baby was born, but not before.
I did not know the SDA has taken a formal position about the word Koine Greek word for "until," contrary to so many Greek scholars. Are you sure SDA has come to an investigative judgment about "until?" As scholars state, ZERO is said about what happens after the "until" event. Yet you claim I "say something that isn't there" when in fact it is you who do so! Incredible.
 
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