Free will and determinism

[Aaron112]

So if God has determined what you do you can decide not to do it?

22 Best Obedience Bible Verses – Encouraging Scripture

Bible Verses about obedience help Christians learn how you can love him. Study and memorize Scriptures about obeying God. Discover the top verses in the Bible about obedience.

www.biblestudytools.com

Top Bible Verses About Obedience
John 14:15 - “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

1 Peter 1:14 - As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,

Acts 5:29 - But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

1 John 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Isaiah 1:19 - If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land;

Luke 6:46 - “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

 

[Bradskii]

22 Best Obedience Bible Verses – Encouraging Scripture

Bible Verses about obedience help Christians learn how you can love him. Study and memorize Scriptures about obeying God. Discover the top verses in the Bible about obedience.

www.biblestudytools.com

Top Bible Verses About Obedience
John 14:15 - “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

1 Peter 1:14 - As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,

Acts 5:29 - But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men.

1 John 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome.

Isaiah 1:19 - If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land;

Luke 6:46 - “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

I'd prefer your opinion on this rather than me reading bible verses to try to work out what you think.

You said “man’s reason does not determine his steps, God does”. I'll leave out the 'seems' this time. That does mean that there is no room for free will. God determines what you'll do. Therefore you don't. Your reason doesn't come into it. It literally means that.

So there is no free will there. Unless...

God determines what you do but you choose not to. So something else determines your actions.

 

[Injeun]

So you were the type of of person who preferred to skip school rather than knuckle down. I guess we can say that your character at that time was one of the things that determined what you did. Do you agree with that?

Somewhat. You said there's no free will. I said there is. You asked for an example from my life of free will. I gave one. Now you want to talk about character. Should I say I'm a product of circumstance in a life and world I didn't create so as to sanctify myself? No, I owed up to it, knew it was wrong, (though not how wrong in my myopic teenage experience at the time), and suffered the consequence. Anyway, absolutely we have free will or free choice, just as we have life. Is there another life of which I'm not aware, in which we don't have the power of free choice or free will?

 

[Bradskii]

Somewhat. You said there's no free will. I said there is. You asked for an example from my life of free will. I gave one. Now you want to talk about character. Should I say I'm a product of circumstance in a life and world I didn't create so as to sanctify myself? No, I owed up to it, knew it was wrong, (though not how wrong in my myopic teenage experience at the time), and suffered the consequence.

So your character at the time - over which you had no control, determined that you should skip school. You are obviously a changed person now because you realise now that you were wrong then and you eventually 'owned up to it'. This happens to us all. We (generally) learn from our mistakes and we change.

Life is all about continual change. Your age, your education, where you live, your diet, your friends...they all change us in some ways. None of which you can control. So the decisions you originally made, determined by circumstances beyond your control, now change. Because of new circumstances. Which are beyond your control.

Look at some extreme examples. You might have become seriously ill and unable to work. You might have won the Lotto and didn't need to work. There might have been a huge depression and there was no work. You'd have no control over those circumstances. What makes it different for other circumstances?

Now unless dualism is real and there's effectively a little man in there somewhere making decisions 'for you' without considering any prior or existing circumstances, then free will doesn't exist. By definition.

 

[o_mlly]

So counter the premise. After all those posts you'd think you would have at least made some attempt. And if you ask for a moral example so that you can discuss it then when it is given, then please discuss it.

As already noted in this thread, what is asserted w/o evidence may just as easily be dismissed w/o evidence. Did you miss the unicorn example? Proving that a negative, free will (or a unicorn) does not exist is not possible.

And, also as already noted, your assertion is a meaningless tautology. Your consequence merely affirms your conditional. (See the logical fallacy of affirming the consequent.)

 

[Injeun]

So your character at the time - over which you had no control, determined that you should skip school. You are obviously a changed person now because you realise now that you were wrong then and you eventually 'owned up to it'. This happens to us all. We (generally) learn from our mistakes and we change.

Life is all about continual change. Your age, your education, where you live, your diet, your friends...they all change us in some ways. None of which you can control. So the decisions you originally made, determined by circumstances beyond your control, now change. Because of new circumstances. Which are beyond your control.

Look at some extreme examples. You might have become seriously ill and unable to work. You might have won the Lotto and didn't need to work. There might have been a huge depression and there was no work. You'd have no control over those circumstances. What makes it different for other circumstances?

Now unless dualism is real and there's effectively a little man in there somewhere making decisions 'for you' without considering any prior or existing circumstances, then free will doesn't exist. By definition.

I don't understand what you say. I didn't have a character. I had me, a life, free choice, the light of conscience to know right from wrong, and two things from which to choose. I chose to skip school rather than to attend school. I've made many right and sacrificial choices in life as well, which produced their own costs, benefits, and results. They too are evidence of free choice and free will.

 

[Aaron112]

Is there another life of which I'm not aware, in which we don't have the power of free choice or free will?

"Forum" loife. "Group" life. (any? group).... If sommeone wants to join, like a union, they have to conform or be put out. Web ideas:

None Righteous, Not One Found​

The Bible consistently portrays humanity as inherently sinful and corrupt. The search results highlight several passages that emphasize this truth:

• Romans 3:10-12, Psalm 14:1-3, and Psalm 53:1-3 all declare, “There is no one righteous, not even one” (NIV). This statement underscores the universal nature of humanity’s corruption, with no exceptions.
• Isaiah 59:16 describes God’s observation of humanity’s evil and lack of justice, leading Him to intervene and bring salvation Himself, as there was no one else to do so.
• These passages collectively convey a sense of disappointment and astonishment at humanity’s collective failure to seek God or do good.

 

[Bradskii]

As already noted in this thread, what is asserted w/o evidence may just as easily be dismissed w/o evidence.

The evidence is that everything appears to be deterministic. To dismiss that view you only have to give a single example of when that doesn't occur.

Did you miss the unicorn example? Proving that a negative, free will (or a unicorn) does not exist is not possible.

That was agreed to a very long time ago. It cannot be proved there is no free will. But you can easily prove that the basis for the claim is false. You seem unable to do that. Actually, you seem unable to even try. You get as far as asking for some example that involves a moral act and when one is given you completely ignore it, despite me asking you to comment on it multiple times. Here it is again:

A guy cut me off in traffic and I decided not to follow him home and beat him to death.

There won't be any comment on that because I don't think that you actually have anything to add.

 

[Bradskii]

I don't understand what you say. I didn't have a character.

That's quite an odd thing to say. Your character is who you are at any given time. Your propensities, your likes and dislikes, your emotional make up. Whether you are lazy or industrious, placid or easily angered. Your character is a description of you.

Is it fixed? Well, some aspects of it can be. But you generally change. Which is what you did. You were the type of person who could skip school. That was you at that time. Whether you knew it was wrong or not, that's who you were. And you can't choose to be someone you're not.

I had me, a life, free choice, the light of conscience to know right from wrong, and two things from which to choose. I chose to skip school rather than to attend school. I've made many right and sacrificial choices in life as well, which produced their own costs, benefits, and results. They too are evidence of free choice and free will.

Free choice and free will are not the same thing. Being able to freely choose simply means that there is no coercion involved. Free will means that you make a decision that is not determined by any prior conditions. That's not possible. Unless you can show me otherwise.

 

[Aaron112]

The evidence is that everything appears to be deterministic. To dismiss that view you only have to give a single example of when that doesn't occur.

The flesh/way of flesh/ profits nothing.
Godliness is profitable in the life to come, as well as in this life.

 

[Injeun]

"Forum" loife. "Group" life. (any? group).... If sommeone wants to join, like a union, they have to conform or be put out. Web ideas:

None Righteous, Not One Found​

The Bible consistently portrays humanity as inherently sinful and corrupt. The search results highlight several passages that emphasize this truth:

• Romans 3:10-12, Psalm 14:1-3, and Psalm 53:1-3 all declare, “There is no one righteous, not even one” (NIV). This statement underscores the universal nature of humanity’s corruption, with no exceptions.
• Isaiah 59:16 describes God’s observation of humanity’s evil and lack of justice, leading Him to intervene and bring salvation Himself, as there was no one else to do so.
• These passages collectively convey a sense of disappointment and astonishment at humanity’s collective failure to seek God or do good.

Gods patience and long suffering towards mankind is to be regaled. He is good, when none are.

 

[Bradskii]

The flesh/way of flesh/ profits nothing.
Godliness is profitable in the life to come, as well as in this life.

That has no connection with what I said at all.

 

[Robban]

"Forum" loife. "Group" life. (any? group).... If sommeone wants to join, like a union, they have to conform or be put out. Web ideas:

None Righteous, Not One Found​

The Bible consistently portrays humanity as inherently sinful and corrupt. The search results highlight several passages that emphasize this truth:

• Romans 3:10-12, Psalm 14:1-3, and Psalm 53:1-3 all declare, “There is no one righteous, not even one” (NIV). This statement underscores the universal nature of humanity’s corruption, with no exceptions.
• Isaiah 59:16 describes God’s observation of humanity’s evil and lack of justice, leading Him to intervene and bring salvation Himself, as there was no one else to do so.
• These passages collectively convey a sense of disappointment and astonishment at humanity’s collective failure to seek God or do good.

Psalms 14 and 53 are almost identical, they both speak to fools who say there is no God.

Further more it says they eat my folk like eating bread ,so question,

Does "My folk" live on Mars, or what?

 

[Injeun]

That's quite an odd thing to say. Your character is who you are at any given time. Your propensities, your likes and dislikes, your emotional make up. Whether you are lazy or industrious, placid or easily angered. Your character is a description of you.

Is it fixed? Well, some aspects of it can be. But you generally change. Which is what you did. You were the type of person who could skip school. That was you at that time. Whether you knew it was wrong or not, that's who you were. And you can't choose to be someone you're not.

Free choice and free will are not the same thing. Being able to freely choose simply means that there is no coercion involved. Free will means that you make a decision that is not determined by any prior conditions. That's not possible. Unless you can show me otherwise.

Your definition of free will is impossible because it isn't the definition of free will. You can choose to do right or wrong. In choosing to do right, you might meet resistance or coercion or some means to dissuade you from your choice. Free will then is when you maintain your choice in spite of the resistance when you don't have to and have every incentive not to. Volunteerism, charity, and forgiveness are also acts of free will.

 

[Bradskii]

Your definition of free will is impossible because it isn't the definition of free will.

From Britannica:

'free will, in philosophy and science, the supposed power or capacity of humans to make decisions or perform actions independently of any prior event or state of the universe.

That's the standard definition. That's what's being discussed.

 

[Aaron112]

The standard posted from Brtnnca is in serious error, like quicksand trying to walk or build on it.

 

[Aaron112]

That has no connection with what I said at all.

Referring to the carnal man, flesh, of which the premises and arguments posted are part of- to noprofit for anyone.

 

[Aaron112]

Gods patience and long suffering towards mankind is to be regaled. He is good, when none are.

Yes, and it is vital to seek God's Way and give up the ways of men, to find health and life.

 

[Bradskii]

Referring to the carnal man, flesh, of which the premises and arguments posted are part of- to noprofit for anyone.

Well we're obviously talking about free will as it concerns us. Otherwise, again, your post makes no sense to me.

 

[Aaron112]

Free will as it concerns us (humans).

Simple direct question: Do you want free will or not ? If someone wants free will, they can accept it. If someone does not want free will that involves a long long story and life of slavery that we are not allowed to post openly on this forum because of the rules.