Wife getting massages

[Hazelelponi]

Absolutely he should assert himself. Draw a line right in the sand. I can't imagine a massage so precious I'd risk my wife for it. This is an extremely small and understandable request....and she should be willing to comply quickly.

100%

A man has a right to his own feelings and his own rights to be respected inside a marriage the same as women do. (And I'm a woman - not all women are radical feminists)

When you love and care for someone you do want them to be happy and comfortable in the relationship the same as you want for yourself.

Normal jealousy isn't a sin, not when it comes to a spouse. In Scripture if a man had suspicions - as in this case - of infidelity he could take it to the priest and get a resolution - she had to drink some concoction to prove innocence or her guilt back in the day.

So because there's a levitical law surrounding the husband's jealousy without actual proof (naked for an hour getting a man to rub her down on a regular basis, by her own account) we can surmise there's a normal jealousy within a committed relationship that should be respected, and is likely simply common to all.

I would certainly want to question such a situation if it was my husband... I imagine also the reverse is just as true.

(I actually know because I asked him because of this thread - he's in the absolutely not and never category,)

But In a heartbeat if my husband said he was uncomfortable with me getting massages I would simply stop, or recommend myself to start getting massages from a woman in a regular environment - though I would personally go a step further and invite my husband with me after changing the masseuse to a female to allay any continued fears he may have.

That would be the normal reactions of a caring spouse.

Any married woman who demanded to continue getting sketchy massages from a man I would assume infidelity on her part. At that point there's certainly no respect left in the marriage.

 

[Paidiske]

First, you admit the inclusion of "professional therapeutic" is based anecdotally on your own subjective personal experience.

No; I am saying that my personal experience informs my knowledge of what that entails. Like beginning with taking a medical history, for example. Is someone going to try to frame that as foreplay, too?

So, she may object but not actually do anything more to dissuade him from going to a strip club to enjoy his favorite beer? And he is free to dismiss her objection as he heads out the door? And their lives as husband and wife just go on?

Not at all what I said. But in both directions, either wife or husband has no right to control the other.

The problem is that you concluded they're irrational despite knowing you don't have evidence they are.

Going on what he actually said. If the situation is exactly as he described it, I'll stand by the emotional reaction being irrational.

Also....at what point do feelings become rational or irrational.

If someone is reacting to a therapeutic massage as if it were infidelity, I'd say that's irrational. The emotions are not a response to what is actually happening.

What do you mean my definition of boundaries?

You seem to think "boundaries" means being able to tell a spouse what to do or not do.

I'm running out of ways to make this clear to you though.

From where I'm sitting, you're twisting situations to make specious arguments. I do not, for example, buy the idea that the threat of "stop that or I'll divorce you," isn't a control tactic, when applied to a totally normal, not-immoral, not-harmful, activity.

No...ask any man on this forum if he gave up a behavior that his wife didn't like. My wife made it clear that she didn't want me viewing pornography. I dropped it the next day. It was a great choice on my part....and we weren't even married yet. Why would it be difficult to choose between that and a loving wife that adores me? I literally quit from the moment she asked me to.

So your wife could pick anything at all, and ask you to stop, and you'd do so, no discussion entered into?

Really?

I'm not convinced that's a very healthy dynamic.

Is he happy?

According to him, he is. I just asked him, and he said, "I would say that a man who has to yell at his wife is unhappy. How much better is it to be in a relationship where you actually have a relationship, rather than a competition?"

Look at your definition...

To put it simply: boundaries are about what I will or will not do, not what limits I attempt to set on what someone else can or cannot do.

Not only is abusive behaviour not a part of your description....your description explicitly says it should have nothing to do with your spouse's behavior.

The thing you're missing there is that part of the boundaries I get to set are, not putting up with being abused. I have the right, not to control the other person, but to remove myself from that dynamic.

 

[Bradskii]

A man has a right to his own feelings and his own rights to be respected inside a marriage the same as women do.

May I reverse that statement?

'A woman has a right to her own feelings and her own rights to be respected inside a marriage the same as men do.'

If a wife says she needs some therapeutic massage to solve a problem and it's a qualified male masseuse then I don't see a reason for complaint. If the husband does then she'd obviously need to ask why. The only response I can see is either 'I feel uncomfortable with a man touching you' in which case he doesn't trust the masseur, or more problematically 'I don't trust you'.

The second is obviously a huge problem and needs to be discussed. As regards the first, if it was some guy from the office offering to massage her then I think most guys would be uncomfortable with it. But this is a qualified professional doing what he has been trained to do. He has no real cause for concern.

Maybe the op can give us some feedback if he thinks it would help.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No; I am saying that my personal experience informs my knowledge of what that entails.

And in both of our cultures....the overwhelming majority of people are going to have a rather similar idea of a massage at a pretty early age.

It's simply something common in film, media, news, real life, etc.

Not at all what I said.

How closely do you want to go over what you said?

Going on what he actually said. If the situation is exactly as he described it, I'll stand by the emotional reaction being irrational.

By what standard?

How are you possibly judging the rationality of someone's comfort?

I don't care if you think you wouldn't feel that way....that entirely does not matter.

I want to know what this supposed rational standard of comfort is that you use to dismiss legitimate feelings of total strangers?

If someone is reacting to a therapeutic massage as if it were infidelity, I'd say that's irrational.

We all know exactly how you judged the guy looking for help. We all see it.

I don't think him describing his discomfort as the same reaction as he would if he were certain of infidelity. I'd hope he wouldn't need advice.

You seem to think "boundaries" means being able to tell a spouse what to do or not do.

No I'm more than willing to use your definition and describe boundaries as all about self control, self respect, self care....you know, the way you see them....

All about yourself.

The problem occurs after I do that and then you start arguing that they're about controlling behaviour.

From where I'm sitting, you're twisting situations to make specious arguments.

No. I merely pointed out that we were talking about the exact same thing when discussing relationship boundaries.

The only difference is that when you frame your perspective of the idea....you make believe it has nothing to do with the behavior of the person you're in a relationship with....and it's only about what you think you should do for yourself.

I argued that relationship boundaries were inherently about the behavior of the people in the relationship....and that's not wrong or unhealthy. You continued to disagree despite not being able to come up with 1 relationship boundary that doesn't involve your spouse's behavior.

I finally decided to just adopt your definition and I'll continue to frame my advice as solely about him and what he does for his well being. I won't mention the way it's related to his spouse's behavior. Fair?

So your wife could pick anything at all, and ask you to stop, and you'd do so, no discussion entered into?

Really?

No...of course not. But that's an extremely small thing to request and her discomfort was genuine. I don't even care if I agree that she should have any discomfort at all.

I'm not convinced that's a very healthy dynamic.

Ok.

According to him, he is. I just asked him, and he said, "I would say that a man who has to yell at his wife is unhappy. How much better is it to be in a relationship where you actually have a relationship, rather than a competition?"

Uh...we all tell our wives we're happy if asked....generally.

That's not necessarily true though....and the fact you even had to ask to find out says it all.

The thing you're missing there is that part of the boundaries I get to set are, not putting up with being abused.

No that's not part of boundaries....according to you and your so called experts. If you continue trying to insert some nonsense about abuse....I'll just quote you in response to yourself.

You're all over the place as if you gave this no thought before replying.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If a wife says she needs some therapeutic massage to solve a problem and it's a qualified male masseuse then I don't see a reason for complaint.

There's no problem being solved. They aren't doing math. She's just indulging in a luxury without any regard for her husband. We know this....because it's frequent. If a problem were being solved....why go back?

If the husband does then she'd obviously need to ask why. The only response I can see is either 'I feel uncomfortable with a man touching you' in which case he doesn't trust the masseur, or more problematically 'I don't trust you'.

Or he knows that massages, particularly the one described are sensual experiences. Sensual intimate experiences can quickly become sexual.

The second is obviously a huge problem and needs to be discussed.

Should he act as if he doesn't live in reality? As if no woman has ever cheated on her husband? Or as if he has some magical ability to see into the future and pick one that is 100% loyal?

As regards the first, if it was some guy from the office offering to massage her then I think most guys would be uncomfortable with it.

But a guy who pursues rubbing women down in private for a living is completely trustworthy.

But this is a qualified professional doing what he has been trained to do. He has no real cause for concern.

What kind of training do you think is happening? Is there some wild standards for this abroad that I don't know about? Does it require a 4 year college degree where you're at?

Maybe the op can give us some feedback if he thinks it would help.

If I were the OP I'd never return after the first few posts openly blaming me for my problem.

 

[Paidiske]

By what standard?

By the standard that he is reacting as if the situation is different to what it actually is. He's reacting as if it's inherently sexual when it isn't.

Uh...we all tell our wives we're happy if asked....generally.

I know him well enough to be pretty sure he's not lying to me. I just wanted to hear what he would actually say in response to your question.

No that's not part of boundaries....according to you and your so called experts.

Of course it is. Things like removing yourself from an abusive situation are taking responsibility for your own wellbeing.

You're all over the place as if you gave this no thought before replying.

It's really, really simple. One person doesn't get to control the other person. But each gets to make decisions about their own time, space, and so on. Decisions which impact both should be mutually agreed, not unilaterally imposed. An attempt by one person to control the other - whether by physical force or yelling or threats or anything else - is abusive and absolutely can be resisted.

 

[Ana the Ist]

By the standard that he is reacting as if the situation is different to what it actually is.

Whoa whoa whoa....

I thought we agreed the OP is unclear about what the situation actually is? It could be what you think is happening....it could be what I suspect might be....it could be something else entirely.

Right?

I know him well enough to be pretty sure he's not lying to me.

Ok.

Of course it is. Things like removing yourself from an abusive situation are taking responsibility for your own wellbeIng.

I wouldn't consider mere yelling abuse but I understand that you do.

One person doesn't get to control the other person.

I've never disputed this....we can go back and I'll show you.

She's free to get massages no matter what he does.

But each gets to make decisions about their own time, space, and so on.

Right. Agreed.

Decisions which impact both should be mutually agreed, not unilaterally imposed.

Well her massages seem to impact him....that's a very broad description of his problem he came here seeking help for.

An attempt by one person to control the other - whether by physical force or yelling or threats or anything else - is abusive and absolutely can be resisted.

Ok....I'm not suggesting he do any of those things. Again, I'm suggesting....

1. He explains how he feels to her and why.

2. He explains what he intends to do for himself for his peace of mind/mental health/wellbeing....up to and including leaving the relationship.

See? No abuse needed, he's not requiring nor demanding she do anything, both now and after my advice....she's completely free to do as she pleases.

Boundary setting.

 

[Paidiske]

I thought we agreed the OP is unclear about what the situation actually is? It could be what you think is happening....it could be what I suspect might be....it could be something else entirely.

Right?

Well, there could be rainbow glittery unicorns doing the massage too. But I'm going to stick with what the OP said. That it does not involve currently, nor does he believe it will lead to, "any actual impropriety or infidelity."

Because if we're going to reject what he's said and speculate, we have no solid basis for anything we might say.

Well her massages seem to impact him....that's a very broad description of his problem he came here seeking help for.

In which case, unpacking what that impact is and why is relevant.

Ok....I'm not suggesting he do any of those things.

I didn't say you were. That whole strand of the conversation stemmed from your comment about how "Women don't like agreeing to any boundaries..." which is still nonsense.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, there could be rainbow glittery unicorns doing the massage too. But I'm going to stick with what the OP said.

Are you denying that he said his wife's massages make him uncomfortable?

Isn't that the problem he came here seeking advice about?

Because if we're going to reject what he's said and speculate

Does he or does he not describe the problem as the way he feels about his wife's massages?

In which case, unpacking what that impact is and why is relevant.

Any hope of that was probably lost when he was turned on.

Still, I don't see much relevance.

I understand that you suggested he simply change his feelings....but that's never worked in the history of feelings. How long do you expect him to sit this out? Until he loathes his wife? Until he hates himself?

Wouldn't it be better to set some boundaries?

Am I mistaken....or did you actually suggest he pursue therapy????

"Women don't like agreeing to any boundaries..." which is still nonsense.

You're so controlling that even when I try to agree with you just to move the conversation forward....you adopted my old position just to continue arguing lol.

Who do you think has more experience in relationships with women? You or me?

 

[Paidiske]

Are you denying that he said his wife's massages make him uncomfortable?

No. But I'm denying any suggestion of infidelity.

Any hope of that was probably lost when he was turned on.

I meant between the couple.

I understand that you suggested he simply change his feelings....but that's never worked in the history of feelings.

Ummm... people work through and gain new perspective, even come to new emotional responses, to things all the time. It's why we have various forms of talking therapy, for a start.

How long do you expect him to sit this out?

I didn't suggest he "sit this out." I suggested he do the work to address why he feels the way he does. I even suggested that if he has any real concerns about the massage therapist, he book a massage for himself and check the situation out.

Am I mistaken....or did you actually suggest he pursue therapy????

It would be one way to explore his reactions and feelings, perhaps gain some perspective.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No. But I'm denying any suggestion of infidelity.

Ok...I'm not sure how you became so certain when her husband clearly isn't but....ok.

I meant between the couple.

Again, this is a tiny teensy little thing. I understand that you don't see why any man might be uncomfortable in the situation described....but clearly many people do understand.

Ummm... people work through and gain new perspective, even come to new emotional responses, to things all the time. It's why we have various forms of talking therapy, for a start.

Is that really your advice? Honestly?

Put yourself in that situation. You're getting massages like whatever his wife is....at a rate so frequent your husband is "uncomfortable". Obviously, in your mind those feelings are wrong....you'll tell him so if he tries to bring it up....you suggest he goes to therapy, and he does.

You would rather drive your husband into therapy....to discuss with a stranger your actions and how they trouble him.....over a massage??????

Seriously?

I didn't suggest he "sit this out."

You certainly aren't suggesting that he set some boundaries.

 

[Paidiske]

Again, this is a tiny teensy little thing.

To you, maybe. That doesn't mean it's a tiny thing to everyone.

Is that really your advice? Honestly?

Yes.

Put yourself in that situation. You're getting massages like whatever his wife is....at a rate so frequent your husband is "uncomfortable". Obviously, in your mind those feelings are wrong....you'll tell him so if he tries to bring it up....you suggest he goes to therapy, and he does.

You would rather drive your husband into therapy....to discuss with a stranger your actions and how they trouble him.....over a massage??????

I would be deeply offended and hurt, that apparently, a) he doesn't trust me or believe what I'm telling him, b) he is projecting his sexual insecurity onto something inherently non-sexual that is benefitting me, and c) he thinks his totally inappropriate emotional reaction is more important than the wellbeing benefit I get of tension and pain relief.

That would all suggest much bigger problems than just "he's uncomfortable about a massage."

Maybe I'd be willing to change therapists, if I could find another that meets my particular needs. But it would deeply damage our relationship. And yes, if he were willing to actually do the work to deal with his own issues, I think that would be a far better outcome. I don't see that as "driving" him into therapy; I see that as him being a grown adult engaging in the - yes, sometimes difficult and costly - work of personal growth.

You certainly aren't suggesting that he set some boundaries.

Like I said, if I see a boundary issue here, it the lack of boundaries involved in making her responsible for his feelings.

 

[Ana the Ist]

To you, maybe. That doesn't mean it's a tiny thing to everyone.

I can't imagine the pampered and easy life of someone who believes giving up a massage....for the kind of reasons one might make up in order to justify a totally unnecessary massage....being a real person. Has this woman never faced any real hardship? Has she never struggled? Has she never been told no?

Please.

Yes.

I would be deeply offended and hurt, that apparently, a) he doesn't trust me or believe what I'm telling him, b) he is projecting his sexual insecurity onto something inherently non-sexual that is benefitting me, and c) he thinks his totally inappropriate emotional reaction is more important than the wellbeing benefit I get of tension and pain relief.

Do you think that would play well with any decent therapist?

Or if he saw a professional....they would swiftly conclude his marriage is dead. After all, he would only need to realize that his wife chose a massage over him. That his comfort and discomfort is less of a concern than a massage.

I don't think any decent therapist would invalidate his feelings....that's not something that they do. Obviously, some people see massage therapists as something on par with a doctor....others see it as the fake backup plan of strippers. I tend to fall in the latter...but I can certainly understand both views....and so would any therapist.

The fact that he's there would be proof enough he cares far far more for her than she for him. Maybe she is genuinely hurt but that's ok...because she doesn't care when you're hurt. You shouldn't waste your care and concern on her....she clearly doesn't care for you. She doesn't seem to love or respect you.

Any decent psychologist would then offer to explore how things got that way....so he can avoid it in the future, but any requests for "fixing the marriage" would require her participation in marriage counseling but he probably shouldn't bother.

This isn't a doctor....it's a masseuse. You don't go to the doctor in private, in the nude, for physical pleasure....from another man.

Frequently.

It's not only valid to not be uncomfortable with this....it's valid to demand it stop. I'd only do her the courtesy of explaining why she's being so rapidly ejected from my life. Obviously I wouldn't care if her feelings are hurt....I'd suggest she go to therapy.

That would all suggest much bigger problems than just "he's uncomfortable about a massage."

I'm going to disagree. I'd fully understand why someone might see it more like a dr. visit....if she had some serious medical condition like MS and the circumstances were different. I wouldn't argue with a guy who sees this exact situation as similar to a dr....I'd tell him that's great and wish him the best.

But this isn't a doctor. This isn't treatment. This is her seeking physical pleasure from another man...cheating or not....and his feelings are entirely valid.

Like I said, if I see a boundary issue here, it the lack of boundaries involved in making her responsible for his feelings.

Do you really offer this advice professionally? Is there money involved?

 

[Paidiske]

Or if he saw a professional....they would swiftly conclude his marriage is dead.

If he's seeing infidelity where there is none, maybe they would.

I don't think any decent therapist would invalidate his feelings....that's not something that they do.

They do, however, challenge the attitudes and assumptions which can underlie our feelings.

any requests for "fixing the marriage" would require her participation in marriage counseling but he probably shouldn't bother.

Why on earth not?

This isn't a doctor....it's a masseuse.

But it is therapeutic treatment for pain.

I mean, the irony of this conversation is that this very afternoon, while we've been disagreeing, my other half went off to a masseuse for therapeutic massage for pain. He's got an injury that is being helped by regular massage. I know that this masseuse has some relevant qualification, that she's younger than me, and that by some amusing cosmic coincidence that she has the same given name as me.

My only emotional response to this is to be glad that the treatment is helping with the pain.

I'd fully understand why someone might see it more like a dr. visit....if she had some serious medical condition like MS and the circumstances were different.

How do you know she doesn't? OP doesn't specify the cause of her tension and pain.

Do you really offer this advice professionally? Is there money involved?

I'd suggest leaving the personal belittlement and goads out of it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If he's seeing infidelity where there is none, maybe they would.

There doesn't have to be any sex for this to be considered deeply painful.

I've never met a woman who would be comfortable with me spending time getting physical pleasure from another woman in private. Do you think I'd offer up a certificate as proof of fidelity? That doesn't matter outside of a spa like setting....nobody is knocking on his front door to verify his certificate lol. I can print one right now and I doubt 9 of 10 housewives would know the difference if I slapped a frame on it.

They do, however, challenge the attitudes and assumptions which can underlie our feelings.

What's to challenge? If Steve Harvey was hosting a round of family feud.....and the question was "name a fake reason for a massage" answers 1, 2, and 3 would be "relaxation, stiff neck, sore muscles".

I would challenge the idea she isn't cheating on him. He has blinders on.

But it is therapeutic treatment for pain.

I wouldn't even put it in the same category as a chiropractor or herbalist....at least they operate out of businesses....not homes. Massage therapists are the lowest, sleaziest, rung of care possible.

If she's in pain, have an aspirin.

I mean, the irony of this conversation is that this very afternoon, while we've been disagreeing, my other half went off to a masseuse for therapeutic massage for pain.

I don't actually believe this. I'm sorry, but you did lose a lot of credibility when I asked for whatever you would consider a real example of a boundary....only to tell me later you're in the perfect marriage where no one ever fights and yells.

I'm sure he's a happy guy.

My only emotional response to this is to be glad that the treatment is helping with the pain.

You're emotional response isn't valid. See how that feels? No man is responsible for your comfort....not even your husband. Does that even sound right to you?

How do you know she doesn't? OP doesn't specify the cause of her tension and pain.

No...it didn't make any sense. There's certainly nothing there that would justify a frequent massage. You can imagine scenarios all you like....but I'll take him at his word....or more likely his wife's.

I'd suggest leaving the personal belittlement and goads out of it.

I'm sorry if I sound incredulous. I would just suggest you reconsider if that's been helpful for people needing help. Do you ever have male clients?

 

[Paidiske]

I've never met a woman who would be comfortable with me spending time getting physical pleasure from another woman in private.

Therapeutic massage isn't about pleasure. As someone upthread said, it's often actually quite painful at the time.

I don't actually believe this.

This isn't the first time you've basically accused me of lying when you didn't like something I said. Which begs the question, if you think I'm either dishonest or not participating in the discussion in good faith, why bother?

I'm sorry, but you did lose a lot of credibility when I asked for whatever you would consider a real example of a boundary....only to tell me later you're in the perfect marriage where no one ever fights and yells.

I didn't say the marriage is perfect. We have our disagreements. But no, we don't yell at each other.

No man is responsible for your comfort....not even your husband. Does that even sound right to you?

It's important.

I had a pastoral situation recently where one partner in a relationship was prone to frequent angry outbursts, and expected his partner to basically manage his mood so that he wouldn't be angry. It was, of course, impossible, because the partner wasn't the source of the anger and couldn't prevent it. The failure of the angry partner to take responsibility for his own emotions has led directly to the end of the relationship.

No...it didn't make any sense. There's certainly nothing there that would justify a frequent massage. You can imagine scenarios all you like....but I'll take him at his word....or more likely his wife's.

Right. So you can speculate that she's being unfaithful, despite evidence to the contrary, but I can't even extrapolate from the statement that she has pain, to consider that the massage might actually be ameliorative.

Mmhmm.

Do you ever have male clients?

Not clients, parishioners. And yes, about half of them are men.

 

[o_mlly]

I am saying that my personal experience informs my knowledge of what that entails.

Fair enough. But your personal experience is subjective ie., opinion.

Not at all what I said. But in both directions, either wife or husband has no right to control the other.

Well, it's kinda like what you said. But the notion that neither has a right to control the other is not helpful toward a resolution.

What would be helpful in resolving cases of disagreement about feelings between husband and wife is a determination of which one has an obligation and the grace to submit to the other. Two kings as equal rulers just never works out unless one is a sadist and the other a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and that kind of relationship is unholy in itself.

 

[o_mlly]

Fair enough. But your personal experience is subjective ie., opinion.

Well, it's kinda like what you said. But the notion that neither has a right to control the other is not helpful toward a resolution.

What would be helpful in resolving cases of disagreement about feelings between husband and wife is a determination of which one has an obligation and the grace to submit to the other. Two kings as equal rulers just never works out unless one is a sadist and the other a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and that kind of relationship is unholy in itself.

I am not certain why the word that describes the psychological opposite of a sadist was bleeped out. If anyone does not know then kindly PM me.

 

[Paidiske]

Fair enough. But your personal experience is subjective ie., opinion.

In the sense that it means I know what objectively takes place, no, it's not.

What would be helpful in resolving cases of disagreement about feelings between husband and wife is a determination of which one has an obligation and the grace to submit to the other.

Obligation? No. It might mean that the situation is resolved quickly, but that just means the underlying problems are never addressed at all. I would say framing it as a matter of obligation is deeply pastorally unhelpful.

Two kings as equal rulers just never works out

I hear people say this, but the fun fact is that egalitarian marriages have actually been shown to have much better outcomes than unequal ones, across all sorts of measures.

 

[Bradskii]

What would be helpful in resolving cases of disagreement about feelings between husband and wife is a determination of which one has an obligation and the grace to submit to the other. Two kings as equal rulers just never works out...

Isn't a marriage a true partnership where each spouse has equal footing? And if I suggested to my wife that she should change her ways using terms such as 'obligation' and 'submit' then I'd be sleeping in the spare bedroom for a while.